From what I've noticed, when you watch alot of players closely, you'll see that only the players with very long follow-through are the ones that are dopping their elbows. Shorter strokers, like Alan Hopkins, don't extend their stroke enough to call for the drop.
Elbow drop or not
- Thread starter Chicken_Blood
- Start date
I'm not. I thought I asked a legitimate question. What few shots other than the break shot are you talking about? It's an important question given the original poster's question.iacas said:
You made an analogy between golf instruction and pool instruction. That today's golfers through decades of instruction by and large swing in such and such away, as opposed to older golfers who didn't have the luxury of modern instruction.
So, when you say "I think you'll see a whole lot of pros not dropping elbows because that's what's being taught," I think it's fair to ask you about this statement considering that current instructors do drop their elbow on certain shots. You brought up the analogy, so I'm putting questions to it. Do you mean "pros not dropping their elbows much."? Or do you mean "pros never dropping their elbows."?
Who cares what they do? The original poster does. That's why he's asking.
If you or anyone bring up a statement that's worth a response, you get a response. If you think I'm arguing with you, I can't see how I am. Some statements beg clarification. Some statements invoke additional questions.
Fred
What I'd like to know is exactly how the BCA approved training system is developed.
A vote by a committee I imagine.
If that's true, it's little suprise that the decided upon instruction will clash with much expert oppinion on what is the best advice, the best way to train, the best stance and stroke method for various players.
Anyway, their system satisfies a demand in the market. But it would be naive to take all BCA instructor's opinions as gospel, though there are likely a few that are smarter than others.
A vote by a committee I imagine.
If that's true, it's little suprise that the decided upon instruction will clash with much expert oppinion on what is the best advice, the best way to train, the best stance and stroke method for various players.
Anyway, their system satisfies a demand in the market. But it would be naive to take all BCA instructor's opinions as gospel, though there are likely a few that are smarter than others.
I know that there are great players the have an "elbow drop". I am curious if any of them have an elbow drop "before the tip strikes the CB"
I think this falls into the catagory of you don't actually do what you are thinking... I would imagine that the concept of the no elbow drop is a thought process that when applied will aid in holding the correct form a "split second" longer and allow contact of the CB before the elbow actually drops.
I agree with the holding the elbow still for as long as possible in the stroke, but at some point for power strokes, the elbow must drop for the cue to continue forward.....(especially for people with short forearms)
I think the "must" is that the elbow must remain fixed until the tip is ready to make contact with the CB......JMO
I think this falls into the catagory of you don't actually do what you are thinking... I would imagine that the concept of the no elbow drop is a thought process that when applied will aid in holding the correct form a "split second" longer and allow contact of the CB before the elbow actually drops.
I agree with the holding the elbow still for as long as possible in the stroke, but at some point for power strokes, the elbow must drop for the cue to continue forward.....(especially for people with short forearms)
I think the "must" is that the elbow must remain fixed until the tip is ready to make contact with the CB......JMO
erikido said:
That kind of complicates things don't you think? "Drop your elbow, but don't try and drop your elbow".
Most of my fundamentals are based on snooker. In snooker they usually teach that you should have a bridge lenght of about 12 inches. On my backstroke I generally only draw the cue back 6 inches and follow through 3 to 4 inches. With that kind of follow through you don't have time for the cue to dip.
The other part to the equation is that I keep my elbow as low as possible (watch Ronnie O'Sullovan, its something he does too), this keeps the cue fairly straight on the follow through.
Nope. There is not currently any single BCA approved training system. At one time, the BCA published a manual for instructor training, but not any more. Individual instructor-trainers (Advanced and Master instructors) have their own materials and views.Colin Colenso said:
BRKNRUN said:
I know of one pro who drops his elbow before contact and that is Mike Davis...lol. I have to say that watching his stroke is almost painful. He pivots at the shoulder as opposed to the elbow. Just thinking about the stroke gives me the willies!!
Bob Jewett said:
Does not their certification process provide a sort of basic guideline for instruction?
What would happen if a rogue BCA instructor started teaching players to drop their elbows and publically countered the opinions of other BCA instructors.
Just interested to know some of the dynamics. I obviously don't know much about the program.
Here's my two cents. Personally I keep my elbow still, except for the power-break. I learned most of my technique from watching snooker. Over the years I guesstimate I've seen about 2000 hours of different snooker-matches (long live the BBC) and I can safely say not one conventional pro-snooker player drops his elbow for any shot. They show a study off the cue-action of both players virtually every match. There are a few players with odd-ball cue-action like Dave Harold, Joe Swail, Alex Higgins and Jimmy White, but they all say themselves they wouldn't recommend their own technique to anyone else, it's just something that "happened" over the years and working it out would in the short run do more harm than good. IMO the rest of the snooker world makes cue-action into an art form, so for me personally I wouldn't dream of doing it different. To me dropping your elbow is in the same league as twisting your wrist: something to be avoided. I do want to make clear that I in no way mean any disrespect to people who do drop their elbow, flipside of the coin being, if it works for you it's the right thing to do. I mean Efren doesn't exactly have a textbook cue-action and well, he seems to make it work pretty good for him.
Glad to hear it. Good to have some competition for ideas.pooltchr said:
well in regards to allison, i was just recently rereading an old inside pool from prob 2 years ago and she specifically addresses the elbow drop. She basically said (if im remembering this correctly) that she does not drop her elbow except for extreme power shots, her statement was the back stroke should be the mirror image of the front stroke.......straight back, pause.......straight thru.....no drop
I am not sure if I am the only one who cannot understand the logic here behind the advocation of the no elbow drop teaching.
Why do the instructors teach no elbow drop as if it is the best way to go when there is no solid envidence as displayed by either top players of our time or those in the past to support its validity? As a matter of fact, don't we have a lot of envidence suggesting the exact opposite?
I also am confused by who is to say that all the top players are self taught and are doing it the wrong way through trial and error? Is there any statistic behind this? Or is this just a guess?
Shouldn't this elbow drop thing be taught as an axiom or an assumption since it has not been proven to be correct?
Why is an exception, Allsion Fisher, rather than the norm, namely, Archer, Strickland, Reyes, and countless other great players, being used to prove a point here?
And what is really confusing is that Allsion Fisher, who is being quoted many times as being a non elbow dropper, does drop her elbow.
If we were to use one particular player's playing style to prove a point, why don't we use that of the greatest player in billiard history, Willie Mosconi? Or the greatest player of our time, Efren Reyes?
Richard
Why do the instructors teach no elbow drop as if it is the best way to go when there is no solid envidence as displayed by either top players of our time or those in the past to support its validity? As a matter of fact, don't we have a lot of envidence suggesting the exact opposite?
I also am confused by who is to say that all the top players are self taught and are doing it the wrong way through trial and error? Is there any statistic behind this? Or is this just a guess?
Shouldn't this elbow drop thing be taught as an axiom or an assumption since it has not been proven to be correct?
Why is an exception, Allsion Fisher, rather than the norm, namely, Archer, Strickland, Reyes, and countless other great players, being used to prove a point here?
And what is really confusing is that Allsion Fisher, who is being quoted many times as being a non elbow dropper, does drop her elbow.
If we were to use one particular player's playing style to prove a point, why don't we use that of the greatest player in billiard history, Willie Mosconi? Or the greatest player of our time, Efren Reyes?
Richard
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Worst advice ever given
Worse advice has never been given in the history of instruction. To deliberately seek to take away the use of at least 50 percent of your stroking arm is insane. The problem comes from too few people knowing the actual mechanics, and subsequent timing, of a correct stroke. However, there is a whole pattern of shots that do not require the elbow to drop (many slip-stroke and softly hit shots), the really great players, ala Mosconi, used their elbow as needed.
the Beard
Drop on, brother!
the Beard
nipponbilliards said:
Worse advice has never been given in the history of instruction. To deliberately seek to take away the use of at least 50 percent of your stroking arm is insane. The problem comes from too few people knowing the actual mechanics, and subsequent timing, of a correct stroke. However, there is a whole pattern of shots that do not require the elbow to drop (many slip-stroke and softly hit shots), the really great players, ala Mosconi, used their elbow as needed.
the Beard
Drop on, brother!
the Beard
Fair enough. I think that an elbow drop is a lot more natural for power strokes (speed). I don't think "super draw" requires an elbow drop, and often times an elbow drop will hurt your cause here, as you'll hit higher on the cue ball than you want to.Cornerman said:
I think power (speed) shots are a small part of pool. I've watched pros play on TV in finals at 7, 8, 9-ball, straight pool, one-pocket, etc. and just based on a guess, I'd say they let their shaft out on 5% or so of pool shots (the break excluded).
Which is true.Cornerman said:
You're constructing a bit of a straw man thing here. Not only is "what current instructors do" for the most part irrelevant ("do as I say, not as I do"), but you have yet to define the word "certain" as you use it. Nobody can agree or disagree with statements as vague as the ones you're writing.Cornerman said:
I've never said pros don't drop their elbows and I've never said it's practical to never drop your elbow.Cornerman said:
iacas said:
I admit it was a loaded question, but IMO, the actions of the BCA Instructors are loading the question. I don't think it's irrelevant, so we can disagree on that.
I use the the term "certain" because different players drop their elbow for different reasons. I certainly don't want to pin it down on any one particular shot. Power shots seem to always come up as elbow dropping. And not only "extreme power shots," but also "more power than a normal" shots.
Also, I know in my own game, that the high spin/speed ratio shot isn't as easy to execute with an SPF stroke when compared to... dropping the stick into the english. I don't know how to describe that shot, but in my mind, I guess I'm thinking "drop the stick" as if the weight of the stick is doing all of the work, rather than me thrusting it forward.
I call it an Efren-type shot. I think I can feel the shot better by dropping the entire arm.
Fred
iacas said:
being taught by whom? certified bca instructors? lol
well you guys who actually get to see the pros play alot in person might be seeing the elbow dropping, honestly when i watch it on tv you rarely get to see the players mechanics it seems, the times ive thought to watch for something like elbow drop they werent showing the back arm in the shot. I know i saw a still frame by frame of allison shooting and hers stayed still. Are yall saying most pros drop their elbows all the time? I can understand power shots and breaks, but i just dont see them dropping it more than that.....im guessing like someone else said, maybe 5% of the shots. i know my time with bca instructors we talked about the importance of the stroke and allison was always held up as an example of someone with a near perfect stroke, pull back, pause, all the way thru with your bridgehand ending up against your chest and your cue tip pointed down into the cloth, which basically doesnt allow elbow drop. I know my game has gone to the next level since i incorporated this into my game, so all i can say is it works for me.
No.scottycoyote said:
Some do it more often. I'll hazard a guess that most do it more than 5%.
I think this stroke is great for most shots.
That being said, this was one of many reports by Bob Jewett:
Jewett on Allison's Elbow
and here's one of my posts on snooker players elbow.
Fred's Report back on Crucible Elbows
Fred