Elbow drop or not?

[ENGLISH!]

Necessities are often defined by the desired outcomes. If there is no defined outcome then there is no necessity.

Even if one pro does use a pendulum stoke, what does that mean when so many do not? A pendulum stroke is certainly no guarantee of a win just as an elbow drop is no guarantee.

Here is a match between John Morra & Dennis Hatch that Hatch won.

https://youtu.be/ZbxDVa56ri8

Watch the elbow drop of Hatch vs Morra. Also watch the movement of the CB on many of Hatch's shots.

No doubt someone will come on & say that all of the elbow drops were after contact. That is virtually impossible to tell on this kind of video. It may be at, just prior, during, or just after. Also the 'follow through can be an indication of what happened prior to & during contact.

The dropping of the elbow is NOT a consciously timed movement. It is merely the result of a desired & focused movement of the cue. It is also NOT an ADDED movement. It is the natural movement as the result of moving the cue stick in a straight line without having the cue stick rock which makes the tip move up & down.

The personal preference that is often mentioned is usually NOT a conscious decision that is made by 'preference'. It is usually determined because of the focus to move the cue on a straight line & as 'level' as possible for as long as possible vs following the dictate of a man made contrived method that does not do that but is easy to teach.

Everyone should know that there are options & should make their own determinations. They should do their homework & know those options before they buy & they should never let a salesman that is selling make the decision for them of what is best for them & what they should want.

I think it would be nice if there was a booking service for instruction where the potential client could talk to a neutral group of individuals that would then make an unbiased recommendation to the potential client as to who would be the best instructor(s) for them & what THEY are seeking.

Best Wishes for ALL.

PS1 I certainly am NOT saying that John Morra is not a good player because he is, but he was beaten by Dennis Hatch who has an elbow drop. Some want to make statements that are suggestive & many times the suggestion is either not true or it is meaningless.

PS2 I am not a paper holding instructor & some of the above are merely my opinions based on my nearly 50 years of experience. Please know that & take what I have said as you think is appropriate.

 

[Ratta]

Hi Ingo!

Thanks but I'm not sure if you're really agreeing with what I wrote. I am advocating an elbow drop before impact on certain shots.

I agree and understood 100 % Fran
I m also a *lover* of the stroke without elbow drop-- but every human is individual- and so their stroke is.

Makes no difference if I for myself prefer a stroke *without* an elbow drop-- but if i see that a student will have an easier life with a slight elbow drop on some shots...so it is. I ll have no stomache about it.

Have a nice day Fran- always a pleasure to read your postings.

kind regards,

Ingo

 

[FranCrimi]

I agree and understood 100 % Fran
I m also a *lover* of the stroke without elbow drop-- but every human is individual- and so their stroke is.

Makes no difference if I for myself prefer a stroke *without* an elbow drop-- but if i see that a student will have an easier life with a slight elbow drop on some shots...so it is. I ll have no stomache about it.

Have a nice day Fran- always a pleasure to read your postings.

kind regards,

Ingo

Oh, Okay. Thanks Ingo! It's always great to read your posts too.

 

[Pidge]

To drop, or not to drop. That is the pedantic question that's been plaguing these forums for years.

Neither is better than the other, neither can do something the other can't. Both have their flaws.

Whether your elbow drops prior or after you strike the white or whether it doesn't drop at all should come down to one thing... Which method gives you the best control and accuracy on the white? For me it is shot dependant. At times I will feel more comfortable keeping the elbow very still, then other times I'm more comfortable dropping the elbow.

I think some people on this forum become so stubborn and adamant that X method is best purely because they use that method and don't care one bit about helping a pool brother out and offering some decent advice.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I am fairly sure that there are times that my elbow does not drop at all. There are times that my forearm may not move at all. I may shoot certain shots with just my wrist.

But... I can not be absolutely sure because I never give my elbow even a single thought & never try to control my elbow. It's the tip & the cue stick that are the focus of my control.

The focus is on the shot & getting the CB to do what I want it to do & not what my elbow does or does not do.

Naturally, one should do whatever works best for them but they should NOT be doing something just because it is easy to teach & someone else has decided that that is what is 'best' for them. Each individual should make their own decisions.

But as has been pointed out in this thread, by Ms Crimi, the fixed elbow pendulum swing is extremely dependent on a perfect or very near perfect set up with rather many variables that can come into play to inhibit that from happening.

If one fixes their mind that something is a must way & is fixated on keeping the elbow still & fixed then they have limited themselves & may NEVER find out what actually is best for them... or possibly in general.

IMO, it is the movement of the cue that should be the focus & then ALLOW one's body parts to do whatever it takes to accomplish that desired movement of the cue stick & the tip on the end of that Straight Implement...
& IMO that desired movement should be a straight line movement & not a rocking movement where the handle & tip move up & down in opposite directions.

So... to help a brother, or sister player, I would suggest that they focus on moving the cue stick in a straight line & not focus on any body parts at all. If the cue stick & tip move straight & one hits the CB were intended & the elbow drops to accomplish that, then so be it.

Best Wishes for ALL.

PS As I have said before, how one connects to the cue stick can be a deciding factor as to what will or will not happen with the elbow. How one connects to the cue I think MUST fit the intended stroke or a road block for such as been put in place.

 

[HawaiianEye]

If you can't hit the cue ball, worry about your elbow (amongst other things).

If you have ever strung a few racks together, your elbow is working fine...don't worry about it.

People have to learn to play...not read about how to do it all day.

There is no right way or wrong way if you do what you intended to do.

 

[ENGLISH!]

If you can't hit the cue ball, worry about your elbow (amongst other things).

If you have ever strung a few racks together, your elbow is working fine...don't worry about it.

People have to learn to play...not read about how to do it all day.

There is no right way or wrong way if you do what you intended to do.

I can agree with everything you say here except for the 2nd. part of your first sentence.

I'd say... If you can't hit the cue ball, focus on moving the cue stick straight so that the tip hits the ball where you want it to hit it.

The elbow has nothing to do with it & should never enter anyone's mind.

The focus should be on moving the cue stick in a straight line.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I can agree with everything you say here except for the 2nd. part of your first sentence.

I'd say... If you can't hit the cue ball, focus on moving the cue stick straight so that the tip hits the ball where you want it to hit it.

The elbow has nothing to do with it & should never enter anyone's mind.

The focus should be on moving the cue stick in a straight line.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.

That wasn't meant literally. It was intended to mean that there are more important things to worry about than the elbow and other nonsense about holding the cue only a certain way.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The wasn't meant literally. It was intended to mean that there are more important things to worry about than the elbow and other nonsense about holding the cue only a certain way.

Sorry. My bad.

 

[FranCrimi]

That wasn't meant literally. It was intended to mean that there are more important things to worry about than the elbow and other nonsense about holding the cue only a certain way.

Well, it wouldn't hurt to put it on one's checklist as an item to check when things aren't going right.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Well, it wouldn't hurt to put it on one's checklist as an item to check when things aren't going right.

I agree, but I'm talking about players who already know how to play. I mentioned players who are able to string together racks. If you have ran several racks on multiple occasions, you already have a style that works for you. I think you may be able to improve on that sometimes, but I don't think "reworking" a person's style to make it "text book perfect" is necessarily needed, nor helpful.

I always wonder how Keith McCready would have played, had he been forced to change his side-arm stroke after he had reached his high level of playing. Would he have been better or worse?

 

[FranCrimi]

I agree, but I'm talking about players who already know how to play. I mentioned players who are able to string together racks. If you have ran several racks on multiple occasions, you already have a style that works for you. I think you may be able to improve on that sometimes, but I don't think "reworking" a person's style to make it "text book perfect" is necessarily needed, nor helpful.

I always wonder how Keith McCready would have played, had he been forced to change his side-arm stroke after he had reached his high level of playing. Would he have been better or worse?

I have no idea what a textbook style is. Just because something's in a book doesn't make it right.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I have no idea what a textbook style is. Just because something's in a book doesn't make it right.

Exactly!

Textbook style is "by the numbers" or "do it this way because pro XXX does it, therefore it HAS TO BE CORRECT".

Different strokes for different folks. The ONLY thing that counts is did you do what you intended to do. If not, then you did it wrong. The outcome is the determining factor.

 

[FranCrimi]

Exactly!

Textbook style is "by the numbers" or "do it this way because pro XXX does it, therefore it HAS TO BE CORRECT".

Different strokes for different folks. The ONLY thing that counts is did you do what you intended to do. If not, then you did it wrong. The outcome is the determining factor.

Well, yes and no about the outcome being the determining factor. You can be successful on the table and be hurting your body by being out of balance and eventually hurting your shoulder from excessive leaning, for example. Eventually it catches up with you. Be careful about making generalizations.

As for different strokes for different folks ---- again, not necessarily. While there are many variations in body type, we all have many things in common. Good timing is good timing, and a player can learn to make compensations for bad timing. However, in such cases, the player will have to work harder at the table.

So yes, there are variations, but not as excessive as to say different strokes for different folks.

 

[Scott Lee]

True enough, but if you don't know how to figure out how to do it "right", then you are stuck with trial & error with HAMB...which takes years, even if you're dedicated. Teaching someone how to train themselves in THEIR routine is what develops accuracy, consistency, and repeatability...from those come diagnostic tools. Diagnostic tools speed up the execution/correction process far more quickly than HAMB. You still need some trial & error, but coupled with regular competition, your skill as a player escalates because you quickly learn how to fix your mistakes.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

The ONLY thing that counts is did you do what you intended to do. If not, then you did it wrong. The outcome is the determining factor.

 

[greyghost]

I agree, but I'm talking about players who already know how to play. I mentioned players who are able to string together racks. If you have ran several racks on multiple occasions, you already have a style that works for you. I think you may be able to improve on that sometimes, but I don't think "reworking" a person's style to make it "text book perfect" is necessarily needed, nor helpful.

I always wonder how Keith McCready would have played, had he been forced to change his side-arm stroke after he had reached his high level of playing. Would he have been better or worse?

you dont have to figure.....just look at Tiger Woods....

 

[greyghost]

and again if some of you had read that old thread.....you would know that hand tension in your back hand is what causes the elbow to dip or not.......

that hand tension can pull you up out of your stance when delivvering.....

if your a pistoner hold the cue extremely lightly or like Lee teaches the V grip.....


then hold the cue in a death grip and try a piston......

I'll be waiting on the coming confirmation, or some ludachris response that i'm not correct....

its the one thing ive beat to death in the past on these theads about this and its like everyone forgets.....kinesiology classes are very informative by the way rick...you learn how the body mechanically functions GASP!!!!!!!

also in regards to the pendulum....and that exacting length close to contact being level......its easy to do that perfect every time.....Scott remember last time you came by i was telling you about that....the methods i learned form Joel and Dave Matlock that were made to do exactly that job.:thumbup:

-Greyghost

 

[greyghost]

Well, yes and no about the outcome being the determining factor. You can be successful on the table and be hurting your body by being out of balance and eventually hurting your shoulder from excessive leaning, for example. Eventually it catches up with you. Be careful about making generalizations.

As for different strokes for different folks ---- again, not necessarily. While there are many variations in body type, we all have many things in common. Good timing is good timing, and a player can learn to make compensations for bad timing. However, in such cases, the player will have to work harder at the table.

So yes, there are variations, but not as excessive as to say different strokes for different folks.

this is good point. I've helped many in the past with shoulder pains and such because of stance issues.........when i was 18 i was playing so long with my lead arm locked hard.....hyperextended my elbow and had to get physical therapy at the track complex.....hurt hurt

imop hard locking the lead arm is not good....close to maybe but not pegged in locked dead straight, which will also cause lots of tension on the top side of the rotator

 

[greyghost]

Much of what you say is relative as the terms are.

Death lock a cue in your hand & make a pendulum swing & then buy a new shaft from breaking it by hitting the Diamond light over the table...

& note that you did not even hit the ball.

so he does learn.....i'm actually impressed, not really but you answered a question for once, but i'm not even sure you realized you did...

because your going to try and say you didn't say i was right......

because if you have a tight grip it makes a piston and a cradle does not.......

thanks rickdickulous I'm proud of you
-Greyghost

 

[greyghost]

Again what you say there is relative & neither one makes one or the other. You can hold a golf club, tennis racket, baseball bat, or pool cue, long or short & the angle relative to the forearm changes.that would be true yes with the devices you said completely every time rick.....but not true with a pool stick at all not one bit and i'll film that for certain for ya tonight

Maybe you should read up on me.

I said that about a pendulum swing & a tight grip not long after coming on AZB about 4 years ago & not 2 years as Mr. Lee derived with his bad arithmetic.... & it is part of what started the 'war' with a few of your cohorts.

I have also always been saying that how one connects to the cue should be conducive to the type of intended motion or it can have unintended influences.

When I was experimenting with TOI after CJ brought it out here my connection to the cue naturally evolved as I moved the cue to get the intended outcome. Both my stroke & connection to the cue changed.

What sport do you know where the athlete does not want to have control of the implement that they are using?

Sorry, but I can not say that I am proud of you. That word pride is a devilishly tricky one to play with as are arrogance, condescension, & self inflated egos.

as i've stated before rick, I've been doing that touch of inside since I was 19.....i'm about to be 32.....CJ didn't invent it no. There's a hundred people in oklahoma that do that rick. for a real real long long long time....

and you "moved the cue" do you now? tell us more all knowing one. Give us a good college try and give us like 5000 words or something.

You want to be right. You just, yourself said that if you have a firm grip the elbow drops.......dont do that little paragraph or two or three...come on speak rick. Concisely. You go then I'll go....senoriity, unless you want to go by years on here because i know you wouldn't becase to you the longer someones on here the more likely they become brain washed.....

uhuhhhhhohhhhhhhhhhhh you might bu bu bu become one of us.......i mean you just said......yall seen it......someone quote him before he goes edits his post


5000 words min go now.....i got some cue work to do i'll be back later....excited to see what you can do or whatever it is you could call it with your words.

-Greyghost