Elbow Droppings

HittMan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am really sorry I didn?t get in on the recent elbow thread?great theatre?IMO. I am also really sorry that when we talk about elbow drop and the stroke (that we ALL love) no one mentioned the following points that seem so important (and obvious) to me. So just for effect, I am going to wade in and respectfully disagree (throw the BS flag). While I agree it's nice to simplify a beginner's world...I think we have a responsibility to report the truth about the complexity of the body mechanics required to play competitively.

Fewer moving parts ? While this ?axiom? may appear infallible; the dynamic mechanism (the body/cue) being analyzed might also appropriately account for parts NOT moved?particularly if those parts could be considered counterintuitive, countermomentus (my term) or counter-observational. Someone finally brought up the ?planes? concept but no one mentioned the path of the cue????? I don't think the discussion is meaningful without path.

Repeatability ? it appears to be generally agreed that this is the holy grail of improved play. SO?let?s concentrate on teaching what affects repeatability by trying to critique a method with this as a yardstick. Consequently?what I try to communicate is an ideal of body mechanics model that can be relaxed into and will remain intuitive and fluid. In my humble opinion, the single most important feature of this model is the Gravity Fed Mechanism which results only when the player actually relaxes and gets still. See the sequential ?Transcendental Pool? articles at hittcues.researchrobotics.com. Pay attention to the section on alignment and height of eye.

Observation ? I believe in the power of observation and believe the observer and the interpreter should endeavor to bring the observed phenomenon and the science of the game into alignment. I fully understand that the dwell (tip contact) time is quite short, however I reject the argument (counter-observational) that follow-thru and acceleration have no effect on the outcome of a shot. If for no other reason, let us assume that if the time frames are so short as to be difficult to measure then the physics/dynamics of the exchange are more difficult to examine by at least, say? an order of magnitude. This alone should cause us to reject (or discount as partial truth) any test result that runs against observation?rather than confirm its validity. In addition?if dwell is only .002 seconds then .0022 seconds represents a 10% increase (approximately). That?s a lot of bang for 2 ten-thousandths of a second. Still think the time is too short to manipulate? It is unlikely scale precludes manipulation?please provide ANY evidence to support this novel position.

In Stroke ? Maybe we should consider differentiating between the performance of a specific shot, stringing a few racks and a lifetime of exemplary play. If for no other reason, the requirements are quite different. It is unlikely that a video of a match, particularly under the current TV coverage formula, will give you much of a window into how a particular player actually plays. It is my observation that as a player ?get?s in stroke? his body mechanics change as well?sometimes radically. Jerry Brock (former US Open Winner) might begin a difficult match with a short, closed bridge and end up playing with open bridge 18-20? from the CB. Guess which way he played better? Watch John Schmidt if you need a current example. Should have seen Keith McCready, Buddy Hall or Louie Roberts when they were young (say 30 years ago).

Most of the ?old guys? I got to study stood straight up and collapsed their elbows?Jersey Red, Don Watson, Handsome Danny Jones, and on and on. Things have changed?but don?t let anyone tell you there are absolutes?you will develop style by working on your game at the table. I say we can still trust our lying eyes.

Just my opinion?you be the judge

Andy Bruce
Hittman
 
Absolutely correct Klopek!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Klopek said:
Drop your darn elbow all you like, anyone can overcome 'quirks" in their stroke and get to be pretty fantastic through hundreds of hours of practice. I say quirks (and not flaws) because a quirk is something unique that may not have any negative affect on someone's game.

I think all the instructors were saying is if you want to fast track your learning curve by creating a more repeatable stroke, you should work on creating a stroke with the fewest complications.
 
Klopek said:
Drop your darn elbow all you like, anyone can overcome 'quirks" in their stroke and get to be pretty fantastic through hundreds of hours of practice. I say quirks (and not flaws) because a quirk is something unique that may not have any negative affect on someone's game.

I think all the instructors were saying is if you want to fast track your learning curve by creating a more repeatable stroke, you should work on creating a stroke with the fewest complications.

Instructors:

Simplified vs simple-minded.

Two words: Steve Davis

Dale<and Steve Miz, Eddie Taylor, Willie Mosconi,...etc>
 
HittMan said:
I am really sorry I didn?t get in on the recent elbow thread?great theatre?IMO. I am also really sorry that when we talk about elbow drop and the stroke (that we ALL love) no one mentioned the following points that seem so important (and obvious) to me. So just for effect, I am going to wade in and respectfully disagree (throw the BS flag). While I agree it's nice to simplify a beginner's world...I think we have a responsibility to report the truth about the complexity of the body mechanics required to play competitively.

Fewer moving parts ? While this ?axiom? may appear infallible; the dynamic mechanism (the body/cue) being analyzed might also appropriately account for parts NOT moved?particularly if those parts could be considered counterintuitive, countermomentus (my term) or counter-observational. Someone finally brought up the ?planes? concept but no one mentioned the path of the cue????? I don't think the discussion is meaningful without path.

Repeatability ? it appears to be generally agreed that this is the holy grail of improved play. SO?let?s concentrate on teaching what affects repeatability by trying to critique a method with this as a yardstick. Consequently?what I try to communicate is an ideal of body mechanics model that can be relaxed into and will remain intuitive and fluid. In my humble opinion, the single most important feature of this model is the Gravity Fed Mechanism which results only when the player actually relaxes and gets still. See the sequential ?Transcendental Pool? articles at hittcues.researchrobotics.com. Pay attention to the section on alignment and height of eye.

Observation ? I believe in the power of observation and believe the observer and the interpreter should endeavor to bring the observed phenomenon and the science of the game into alignment. I fully understand that the dwell (tip contact) time is quite short, however I reject the argument (counter-observational) that follow-thru and acceleration have no effect on the outcome of a shot. If for no other reason, let us assume that if the time frames are so short as to be difficult to measure then the physics/dynamics of the exchange are more difficult to examine by at least, say? an order of magnitude. This alone should cause us to reject (or discount as partial truth) any test result that runs against observation?rather than confirm its validity. In addition?if dwell is only .002 seconds then .0022 seconds represents a 10% increase (approximately). That?s a lot of bang for 2 ten-thousandths of a second. Still think the time is too short to manipulate? It is unlikely scale precludes manipulation?please provide ANY evidence to support this novel position.

In Stroke ? Maybe we should consider differentiating between the performance of a specific shot, stringing a few racks and a lifetime of exemplary play. If for no other reason, the requirements are quite different. It is unlikely that a video of a match, particularly under the current TV coverage formula, will give you much of a window into how a particular player actually plays. It is my observation that as a player ?get?s in stroke? his body mechanics change as well?sometimes radically. Jerry Brock (former US Open Winner) might begin a difficult match with a short, closed bridge and end up playing with open bridge 18-20? from the CB. Guess which way he played better? Watch John Schmidt if you need a current example. Should have seen Keith McCready, Buddy Hall or Louie Roberts when they were young (say 30 years ago).

Most of the ?old guys? I got to study stood straight up and collapsed their elbows?Jersey Red, Don Watson, Handsome Danny Jones, and on and on. Things have changed?but don?t let anyone tell you there are absolutes?you will develop style by working on your game at the table. I say we can still trust our lying eyes.

Just my opinion?you be the judge

Andy Bruce
Hittman
There's always these two famous schools, drop and non-drop elbows, but it's just individual preference. In a way you're right, fewer moving parts, less inconsistencies, more accuracies. Which is more comfortable for you.

At the end of the day, if you can finish up all the balls with dropping elbows, I don't think anyone dare to walk up to you "Hullo why you drop elbows? It's wrong ok".
 
Take a look at all the 'flaws' (which are actually quirks, as Klopek put it) in some of your favorite pros.
 
One point I don't exactly agree with is the one you made about follow through.

You said that the follow through can affect the cue ball because if you follow through, the cue tip might be in contact with the cue ball .002 seconds more. But follow through is describing what happens AFTER the ball has already left the tip. It's not like anyone stops the cue stick exactly after .02 seconds of contact has passed. When most people talk about a bad or missing follow through... they mean the stick only goes through 1 or 2 inches of 6+ inches. I don't think it's humanly possible to hit a ball and have *zero* follow through.

We do both agree that follow through is a good thing, but I think it's because it trains your arm to swing at the correct speed, which may not happen if you anticipate stopping and 'flinch'.
 
AZE said:
Take a look at all the 'flaws' (which are actually quirks, as Klopek put it) in some of your favorite pros.
Once upon a time I first started taking lessons, my coach was very happy when I told him I'm totally new, never into pool before. He said excellent, then I won't have dozens of old mistakes to correct. Later a friend punched me saying that there's a thing call "perfecting your mistakes". Even my coach told me, just look at Busta's grip, it's actually not in accordance to what the general fundamentals we hear, in terms of the elbow angles (not 90 degrees so on..) But look at the way he rocks his cue..eats the balls..I once tried to imitate his strokes but ended up zero..

Perfected his mistakes, or so called 'flaws'..
 
HittMan said:
[...]

Observation ? I believe in the power of observation and believe the observer and the interpreter should endeavor to bring the observed phenomenon and the science of the game into alignment. I fully understand that the dwell (tip contact) time is quite short, however I reject the argument (counter-observational) that follow-thru and acceleration have no effect on the outcome of a shot. If for no other reason, let us assume that if the time frames are so short as to be difficult to measure then the physics/dynamics of the exchange are more difficult to examine by at least, say? an order of magnitude. This alone should cause us to reject (or discount as partial truth) any test result that runs against observation?rather than confirm its validity. In addition?if dwell is only .002 seconds then .0022 seconds represents a 10% increase (approximately). That?s a lot of bang for 2 ten-thousandths of a second. Still think the time is too short to manipulate? It is unlikely scale precludes manipulation?please provide ANY evidence to support this novel position.
[...]

Sorry, but this sounds like gobblygook to me.

First, the test result can't go against the observation; the test result is the observation.

Second, you are the one making the claim of being able to manipulate contact time (increase it by 10%) with your special stroke; the burden is on you.

Third, exactly what effect on the cueball (and why) would you expect if we lived in an alternate universe where you were able to increase the contact time by 10% or 20% or 50% with your stroke?
 
CreeDo said:
One point I don't exactly agree with is the one you made about follow through.

You said that the follow through can affect the cue ball because if you follow through, the cue tip might be in contact with the cue ball .002 seconds more. But follow through is describing what happens AFTER the ball has already left the tip. It's not like anyone stops the cue stick exactly after .02 seconds of contact has passed. When most people talk about a bad or missing follow through... they mean the stick only goes through 1 or 2 inches of 6+ inches. I don't think it's humanly possible to hit a ball and have *zero* follow through.

We do both agree that follow through is a good thing, but I think it's because it trains your arm to swing at the correct speed, which may not happen if you anticipate stopping and 'flinch'.


He is correct. A follow through does just that lengthens the contact time. That's why some players want their cue a little "whippy" which also lengthens the contact time. Your "english" will be more effective this way.

You will see that your draw shot will be more consistent if you employ a good follow through instead of a jab stroke. (good tip is required - :))

Go Meucci!!!
 
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crosseyedjoe said:
He is correct. A follow through does just that lengthens the contact time.
Why do you think this?
That's why some players want their cue a little "whippy" which also lengthens the contact time.
Why do you think this?
Your "english" will be more effective this way.
Why do you think this?

You will see that your draw shot will be more consistent if you employ a good follow through instead of a jab stroke.
I agree with this
 
mikepage,

It's the same reason why they don't want you to "punch" whitey because it doesn't create much ball action, followthrough does. A full followthrough is when the tip reforms to its normal shape before the cue and cue ball separates.

"Whippy" adds extra contact time. My buddy uses an old Meucci that feels like it's bending when you hit with it. Many old Meucci's seem to have the same feel.

The tip stays in contact with the cue ball a little longer allowing the english to "bite" more.
 
One point I don't exactly agree with is the one you made about follow through.

You said that the follow through can affect the cue ball because if you follow through, the cue tip might be in contact with the cue ball .002 seconds more. But follow through is describing what happens AFTER the ball has already left the tip. It's not like anyone stops the cue stick exactly after .02 seconds of contact has passed. When most people talk about a bad or missing follow through... they mean the stick only goes through 1 or 2 inches of 6+ inches. I don't think it's humanly possible to hit a ball and have *zero* follow through.

We do both agree that follow through is a good thing, but I think it's because it trains your arm to swing at the correct speed, which may not happen if you anticipate stopping and 'flinch'.

as a follow through point (pun intended) from creedo, the idea behind a good follow through i think is so we are not slowing down or stopping when we strike the cue ball. it's easy to just say follow right through the ball, than it is to say stop your arm a millisecond after contact with the cue ball has finished. we couldnt do it. so we just follow through completely. it's just an idea and a philosophy to help the part of the cueing process just before it - contact with the cue ball.
 
crosseyedjoe said:
mikepage,

It's the same reason why they don't want you to "punch" whitey because it doesn't create much ball action, followthrough does.

No, follow through doesn't provide different action; it merely is a habit consistent with the player hitting more accurately and more precisely where he wants to hit and with what speed.
A full followthrough is when the tip reforms to its normal shape before the cue and cue ball separates.

The player has no control over the elasticity of the tip. I know it sounds logical that a player pushing the stick will help the tip catch up a little the leaving cueball, but that's a fantasy.
"Whippy" adds extra contact time.
No, it doesn't.
My buddy uses an old Meucci that feels like it's bending when you hit with it.
That's because it is. But that's after the cueball is gone. The cueball doesn't know the shaft is whippy. Again, I know it seems like that information should be there over the few mm of contact, but it really isn't.



The tip stays in contact with the cue ball a little longer allowing the english to "bite" more.
This is another myth.
 
When I want to draw my ball...I warm up with centerball strokes, and durring my last backswing, I bend my knees some to drop the cue tip.


I would say that Klopek hit the nail on the head. You can overcome any type of stroke "quirks"...but I dont want to.
 
xianmacx said:
When I want to draw my ball...I warm up with centerball strokes, and durring my last backswing, I bend my knees some to drop the cue tip.


I would say that Klopek hit the nail on the head. You can overcome any type of stroke "quirks"...but I dont want to.

And nor do I want you to.

But is it OK if we sterilize you so you can't reproduce?
 
mikepage said:
And nor do I want you to.

But is it OK if we sterilize you so you can't reproduce?

That was a joke.

lighten up chief...
 
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mikepage said:
No, follow through doesn't provide different action; it merely is a habit consistent with the player hitting more accurately and more precisely where he wants to hit and with what speed.


The player has no control over the elasticity of the tip. I know it sounds logical that a player pushing the stick will help the tip catch up a little the leaving cueball, but that's a fantasy.

No, it doesn't.
That's because it is. But that's after the cueball is gone. The cueball doesn't know the shaft is whippy. Again, I know it seems like that information should be there over the few mm of contact, but it really isn't.




This is another myth.


This is quite fascinating;


Practitioners(carom master, trick shot artists) experience the effect of "whippy" Meucci.

"Some facts, the red dot is a fine shaft, hard rock maple from the UP of Michigan, I used it for 4 years and loved it. Some call it soft and whippy and it is sort of. It just gives you natural English. The black dot is much stiffer and the quality of that product is awful. They warp, service and repairs are non existent." -- FAST LARRY


Technicalist says otherwise.

"The shaft is set into motion as the tip strikes the ball,
but the actual bending and/or buckling occurs after the short
tip-ball contact time. If the ball has already separated
from the tip before the bending occurs, then the bending and
buckling can have no effect on the ball." - RON SHEPARD



Although I might be now inclined to believe that contact time (due to perfect followthrough and bending) is so short to have any effect on english, many players find those old Meucci's a little unwieldy. If the "whippiness" has no effect on the cueball then less people will be complaining about "whippy" shaft.

I hope JAM replies back. Keith prefers "whippy" Meucci. I think I know his answer will be.
 
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