English on the break

[Scott Lee]

But the spin on the object balls wasn't transferred from the cue ball, you can bet your last dollar.

Dat's a FACT Jack!

English on the cue ball MAY temporarily correct your errant stroke and allow you to hit the head ball more squarely or less squarely. You should work on your stroke if you need to put English on the cue ball to get a better break, IMHO. Hope that helps.
JoeyA

Good post Joey!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
can you hit a break shot with a level stick?

av84fun:
Of course...can't you?

No, I can't, and neither can you. You can't break without having the butt of your cue over the rail and you can't hit the CB with a level stick with your butt over the rail. In fact, it's very unusual (just about nonexistent) to hit the CB with a level stick on any shot.

av84fun:
I will let others pass judgment on your "brain damaged" comment.

So will I. If you're not being purposely dishonest in your exchanges with me, then you've got a cognitive problem.

pj
chgo

 

[Snapshot9]

Breaking

Table conditions affect breaking all the time. With new cloth, side breaking on 9 ball spreads and makes a ball almost everytime. 3 months later, you won't make a ball side breaking, only front breaking.

Exactly the opposite for 8 ball. New cloth yields you the best results with a good front break in 8 ball, older cloth, the 2nd ball break gives you better results.

Rule of thumb for me: 2 consecutive breaks without making a ball, and I switch up my break, side-to-side, or a different break altogether. I have 6-8 breaks for 9 ball, 6 breaks for 8 ball.

Fact of life in Pool, if you break from the same spot everytime with the same english hitting it the same way, and normally make 1-2 balls everytime, I can adjust the rack 1/4" and you won't make a ball, maybe 2 balls out of 10 breaks. Just how do you think Road Players take down the money going from town to town when some local players are just as good??? (Don't believe me, just ask a pro, like Corey).

I use a little low, a little inside english to break with, it yields better overall results for 'spreads'. It is about equal with outside english for making a ball. That is front breaks only. It is important where you place the cue ball before you break, as is where exactly you hit the head ball. The angle you come into the head ball is very important, more important than most players realize. I use low outside english for 2nd ball 8 ball breaks.

With inside english the balls have more 'action', come off rails faster and better, which means they roll further, and yields less clusters than outside english. Using center ball is NOT better, IMO, because it 'shocks' the balls, meaning the balls slide before rolling, which decreases speed of the balls in the racks when spreading. There is an exception to this, when the break speed of such a break is 'real powerful', it can still yield good results, but normally will not be as good as other type breaks.

As an illustration of the difference, if someone stood in front of you about 2 feet difference, and held their fist at their chest and shoot a straight punch at you. Then they did it again, but this time with their fist upside down (thumb up) and twisted their fist, as in a Karate punch, and hit your chest again, which do you think would be the most powerful punch with the most force? It is the same with a center ball hit vs. one with some english on it. The trick is knowing when the english works for you, and when you are outside of the effective range for cueing a break.

As a simplified example of breaking with inside english, I offer this, if you watch the very best 3 ball breakers, the ones that are consistent in making balls on the break, they almost always use inside english when breaking. It puts the balls at more opportune angles for being able to go into the pockets than outside english does on a consistent basis, and that is the ultimate goal in Pool, being consistent.

 

[Tommy-D]

> The ONLY time I use sidespin on the break is when I've hit the last one badly,and use a touch of English to correct it the next time. Example,if the cue ball jumps back towards me and goes in the left side pocket,on my next break,I'll use about 1/4 tip of right spin,and POOF,the cue ball is back out in the middle of the table.


This assumes that the table breaks relatively normal. I have seen tables,particularly with really slow cloth,or where the cloth has been laid on the table where the direction of the nap OPPOSES the break direction,where the only way to get any kind of decent results was to hit the head ball dead on with a BUNCH of spin. The cue ball still jumps back towards the middle,and spins until it stops. I find this break to be best achieved with maybe 75% of my normal backswing,but accentuated follow-thru.

Back when Earl was the old Earl,he used spin on the break as a rule,particularly when breaking off the rail. I point-blank asked him about it,after watching him break from behind him,at an angle where I could see exactly where he was addressing the cue ball. He said he used it to make the cue ball "break" about 1/8 inch over the course of the 50 inches between the head string and the spot. He also noted that it was an experimental thing,that all tables,even the same model table and cloth,would cause the cue ball to "break" a little more or less,even with the same tip placement and speed of stroke. Tommy D.

 

[av84fun]

No, I can't, and neither can you. You can't break without having the butt of your cue over the rail and you can't hit the CB with a level stick with your butt over the rail. In fact, it's very unusual (just about nonexistent) to hit the CB with a level stick on any shot.



So will I. If you're not being purposely dishonest in your exchanges with me, then you've got a cognitive problem.

pj
chgo

Patrick, yours will go down as one of THE most uninformed posts in forum history...even more uninformed as your preposterous statement that a dime radius cannot be easily maintained.

Are you ready for an explosive evactuation of your credibility?? Hang on...,here goes.

1. A billiard ball is 2.25 inches in diameter.

2. A typical cushion rises about 1.25-35 inches above the surface of the table.

3. Therefore, a substantial percentage of the cb can be struck...not only with a level cue but with an upwardly slanted cue as well.

4. Cue balls are round. Cue tips are round. Therefore, even if the cue stick is slanted slightly upward, the tip will contact the cb at a point slightly below the center of the tip and therefore, the point of impact on the cb can be at the center of the ob even though the cue may be tilted slightly upward.

The reverse is true with draw english which is why the tip can be aimed at a much lower portion of the cb than a lot of people think.


I do not recommend striking the CB above center on a break shot...but that was not the issue. The issue was whether the cb can be struck with a level cue. Obviously it can and just as obviously you are hopelessly wrong.

Having said that, because the shaft is much thinner than the butt and since the diameter of the butt has nothing to do with the break shot in any event, to strike the cb dead center requires such a slight downward slant (MAYBE 1/4 inch at most) the cb is NOT going to swerve appreciably in the tenth of a second or so that it spends in contact with the cloth on the way to the one ball...so your entire thesis of swerve being a meaningful factor in the breakshot is bankrupt.



All that remains to be seen is whether you are capable of manning up and admitting to your mistake as I have done in the past in debates with you.

(-:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

av84fun:
Patrick, yours will go down as one of THE most uninformed posts in forum history...

[snip nonsense about breaking with a level cue]

OK, brain damage it is.

pj
chgo

 

[av84fun]

Just as I expected. You don't have the STONES to admit when you are wrong. It takes manhood to admit to your mistakes...but don't worry...there are drugs that may help you.

(-:

 

[av84fun]

OK, brain damage it is. snip nonsense about breaking with a level cue

pj
chgo

Oh...right girlyboy. Snip the part that shows just how embarrassingly WRONG you were.

You are a piece of.....oh, keep in nice Jim......work.

(-:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Oh...right girlyboy. Snip the part that shows just how embarrassingly WRONG you were.

You are a piece of.....oh, keep in nice Jim......work.

(-:

Jim, you have some problems that seem to flare up when you converse with me. It's probably best that I don't respond to you any more.

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I know what I have to do to change up my break to make balls, but, has there been a study that determines that is there a consistent speed that produces more balls on the break than another? ...

We see this discussed all the time. If the rack is tight, the wing ball goes in for a fairly soft hit. If the rack is loose and not always loose the same way, then the result will be much harder to predict. I doubt that anyone has made any useful study of best break speed when facing a general, loose rack. It depends on which neighbors are not touching and how big the gaps are.

I just did an experiment with a four-ball diamond-shaped rack. It was really hard to get just four balls all frozen without some kind of fixture on slightly worn 860 (and by the side pockets, not in the pocked rack area).

According to the Accu-stats statistics from pro tournaments, the break, on average for those players, was a disadvantage. That was before tight racks.

 

[av84fun]

Jim, you have some problems that seem to flare up when you converse with me. It's probably best that I don't respond to you any more.

pj
chgo

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[softshot]

I would say for 8-ball and 10-ball, breaking hard is ALWAYS the way to go but 9-ball can be very tricky. Every table has their own set of characteristics and it's important to test out different speeds. If you hit medium and make two balls on the break, stick with it. If you don't, try breaking harder or softer.

Whats the Difference between 8/10 ball and 9 ball in this regard? I already know I am in the vast minority on this but I don't see the advantage of a 100mph break shot in any game.

Accuracy will drop far more balls than power on any shot. including the break.

I watch alot of great players and you see guys like Archer and Siegel with crushing break shots they jump up several inches and Archer appears to come off of the floor completely ( Is that even legal) They are jumping up and completely out of their normal form and this seems to be the norm for most pool players.

My break shot looks just like all my other shots, and I shoot it just like all my other shots bent low cue scraping the bottom of my chin, aiming at a pinpoint spot on the 1 ball. hitting centerball and following completely through the shot. I don't hit it all that hard. I have some OB shots that I shoot harder than my break. I get fantastic spreads nearly all the time and I make balls on the break as often as anyone else.

What is the advantage of the huge crushing break, other than to show off?

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone seeing as I have never met anyone else who breaks like I do. but it is effective and a shame that most probably haven't even tried it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

On which shots is the CB struck with a level cue? ...

I think I can answer this one. Essentially all shots are hit with some elevation. A level stick would require the center of the bumper to be at the same height as the center of the tip at tip-to-ball contact. That doesn't happen except on contrived shots. It is possible to contrive a shot with negative elevation, but not with a normal grip.

To the best of my knowledge, all break shots are hit with elevation of at least 2-3 degrees. Two degrees of elevation means that the center of the bumper is two inches above the center of the tip at the time of contact.

 

[av84fun]

We see this discussed all the time. If the rack is tight, the wing ball goes in for a fairly soft hit. If the rack is loose and not always loose the same way, then the result will be much harder to predict. I doubt that anyone has made any useful study of best break speed when facing a general, loose rack. It depends on which neighbors are not touching and how big the gaps are.

I just did an experiment with a four-ball diamond-shaped rack. It was really hard to get just four balls all frozen without some kind of fixture on slightly worn 860 (and by the side pockets, not in the pocked rack area).

According to the Accu-stats statistics from pro tournaments, the break, on average for those players, was a disadvantage. That was before tight racks.

Wow...that's a fascinating statistic. Have you studied the reasons for that? I would imagine that the following would be factors.

1. The breaker who has to push out is a 60% favorite to lose (if memory serves).
2. If the breaker scratches and gives up BIH, then he is a significant favorite to lose.

Both of the above are relatively random events that happen to the best players from time to time.

But I am surprised that the above factors (and others I haven't thought of) would offset the inherent advantages to the breaker.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!
Jim

 

[av84fun]

I think I can answer this one. Essentially all shots are hit with some elevation. A level stick would require the center of the bumper to be at the same height as the center of the tip at tip-to-ball contact. That doesn't happen except on contrived shots. It is possible to contrive a shot with negative elevation, but not with a normal grip.

To the best of my knowledge, all break shots are hit with elevation of at least 2-3 degrees. Two degrees of elevation means that the center of the bumper is two inches above the center of the tip at the time of contact.

Bob, with great respect, it is not correct that to achieve a level cue, one must shoot a "contrived shot."

Let me hasten to add that most shots ARE executed with at least some downward slant...but that was not the point of contention between Patrick and me. He stated that a shot cannot be executed with a level cue...but it can...and without being contrived.

If my Olhausen Accu-Fast cushions can be considered typical in terms of the elevation of the top surface above the bed of the table, then here is the math.

The height above the surface is exactly 1.25 inches. Of course, the cb diameter is 2.25 inches. Therefore, one full inch of the cb protrudes above the cushion.

The stripe of an Aramith Super Pro ball is often said to reference the highest/lowest point on a pool ball where tip contact can be made without serious risk of a miscue.

Placing the 9 ball so that the stripe is as close to parallel to the surface an the naked eye can determine, 5/16 of an inch of the stripe protrudes above the cushion.

Since the cusion is the only impediment to a level stroke, it is clear that an above-center tip contact point well within the boundary of the stripe can be readily made.

In fact, slightly more than a tip above center...which I contend is not a contrived impact point any more than the same relationship below center would be...will result in a virtually level cue.

In fact, to achieve cue tip contact at the upper limit of the stripe requires a slightly elevated cue due to the fact that the lower half of the tip will contact the upper portion of the stripe.

Again, for clarity, the debate was NOT what is "normal" or "recommended" but rather what was possible. The issue of whether "possible" might also be "contrived" did not enter into the discussion, but I will accept it as a given in any event.

Therefore, I would appreciate your comments on whether a level cue can, in fact, be achieved with a "non-contrived" above-center tip impact point as described above...Again, not "recommened" but "possible without contrivance."

THANKS!

Jim

PS:

A level stick would require the center of the bumper to be at the same height as the center of the tip at tip-to-ball contact.

Bob, I beg to differ with you on that. In fact, the bottom of the arc of the tip and the arc of the bumper lie on the same plane. But due to the taper of the butt vs. the shaft, the center of the tip and the center of the bumper do not lie on the same plane.

On my cue, the center of the bumper is about 10/16 above the table while the center of the tip is about 3/16. Therefore, for the center of the butt and tip to be at the same elevation, the cue would have to be tilted upward.


What am I missing??

THANKS!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Bob:
A level stick would require the center of the bumper to be at the same height as the center of the tip at tip-to-ball contact.

av84fun:
Bob, I beg to differ with you on that.

LOL. You're it, Bob.

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

... What am I missing??

THANKS!

I suggest that you stand in a position that you think gets the cue level and in which you can strike the cue ball without miscuing. Have someone measure the distance from the floor to the center of your bumper and from floor to the center of the tip. (The latter may require some extra measurements since it is hard to drop a tape measure from the cue tip to the floor. It will help to know how far above the floor the cloth is.)

Please let me know what the measurements show.

 

[av84fun]

I suggest that you stand in a position that you think gets the cue level and in which you can strike the cue ball without miscuing. Have someone measure the distance from the floor to the center of your bumper and from floor to the center of the tip. (The latter may require some extra measurements since it is hard to drop a tape measure from the cue tip to the floor. It will help to know how far above the floor the cloth is.)

Please let me know what the measurements show.

OK...but why would that be necessary when the height of the center of the tip and the center of the bumper can be readily measured with the cue lying flat on the table?

Given that the center of the tip is 7/16 lower than the center of the bumper then it is simple math that to adjust those two centers to the same height above a flat surface would require the tip to be raised from a level position.

That is what I am asking you about what I might have missed because it seems self-evident to me.

Right?

With respect to striking the cb without miscueing, again, the solution can be readily observed simply by freezing a striped ball to a rail with the stripe horizontal. Since the stripe protrudes 4-5/16ths above the cushion...not the top of the ball...the top of the STRIPE...then is it not self-evident that a level cue will result in tip contact below the upper limit of the stripe?

Right?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think this is self explanatory.

The nose of the cushion isn't the top of the cushion. My Diamond Pro has K-66 cushions (or something equally common), and the top of the rubber is 1 11/16" above the table surface.

No matter how you dicker over terminology, you can't hit a level-cue break shot (or any other shot within 5 feet of a rail) on a normal pool table.

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

OK...but why would that be necessary ...

Please do the measurement and let me know what the result is. A minute on the table is worth 40 hours in the arm chair.