English (side spin) effects on the cue ball after object ball collision

Saturated Fats

Saturated Fats

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been playing a lot of 14.1 for quite a few years now. During this time I've run into more than one 14.1 player who is convinced that using outside English on a traditional side of the rack break shot causes the cue ball to produce a better spread when deflecting into the rack. I can't find any evidence of this. I tried to research the subject in Dr. Dave's book, but so far no luck.

The book does say that "sidespin alone has no effect on the cue ball path until the cue ball contacts a rail", but I don't see where the subsequent collision with the rack might be otherwise dealt with.

Is there an authoritative source to answer this? Can someone come up with a simple enough demonstration that proves or disproves this?

I'm posting this in the main forum as well as the 14.1 forum.
 
Hmm physics….Outside gives the contact ball less spin resulting in a possible better spread? You aren’t breaking hard so say if you hit with inside contact ball would have top spin making it less effective in transferring energy any way but forward. With outside the contact ball is sliding and forces technically can go different ways “easier”

Sorry I read post again and says deflecting into rack. With outside Cb will have more follow to mow through the rack off of object ball. So to follow up on the above Physics lesson. Technically more spread only if more balls at 3rd level of balls. More balls at second level would be inside for better spread.

Now I just confused myself and probably any one who read this…
 
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Pat Fleming has a good video on how to hit breakshots. I believe English is used for the cueball ends up after hitting the stack.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
If there is an effect, I doubt that it's as great as the power lost by hitting the CB off center. ...
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In terms of power into the ball for a given stick speed, that's correct. I think the energy in the motion of the cue ball can go down by about a factor of two between center ball and max side.

One way to think about the energy transfer when the cue ball hits the rack with side spin is to notice how much side spin is taken off the cue ball from its collision with the rack. I think that's not much, so it's not a good way to get more energy into the balls.

I think there are two good reasons to use outside spin on a standard side-of-the-rack 14.1 break shot. First, you can eliminate skid if you use the right amount of outside. Second, when you follow forward to the foot rail, the outside will tend to make the cue ball go back through the rack area so you aren't as likely to lose the cue ball up-table.
 
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Strickland says to spin the 9 ball** break . There's some scientific merit here. Not so much proof but Strickland could sure stack those racks.
Ok, scientific merit:
Gearing. Instead of having to plow through a wall of balls, the gearing might allow the ball front to spin out of the way somewhat. Were talking a finite amount of energy so any efficiency would probably help. Probably gives an added measure of cue ball staying clear.

You have my word.

**
Packed balls have no idea what game it is or why they're crammed up against each other.
:D
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think there are two good reasons to use outside spin on a standard side-of-the-rack 14.1 break shot. First, you can eliminate skid if you use the right amount of outside. Second, when you follow forward to the foot rail, the outside will tend to make the cue ball go back through the rack area so you aren't as likely to lose the cue ball up-table.
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Somebody asked me to respond to this thread, but I see no reason. Good answer.
 
Saturated Fats said:
Is skid a factor on a break shot assuming that you are shooting hard enough to spread balls?
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I think skid does still occur for power shots but is usually less than for soft shots. I think it can still be a major source of error.
 
Bob Jewett said:
In terms of power into the ball for a given stick speed, that's correct. I think the energy in the motion of the cue ball can go down by about a factor of two between center ball and max side.

One way to think about the energy transfer when the cue ball hits the rack with side spin is to notice how much side spin is taken off the cue ball from its collision with the rack. I think that's not much, so it's not a good way to get more energy into the balls.

I think there are two good reasons to use outside spin on a standard side-of-the-rack 14.1 break shot. First, you can eliminate skid if you use the right amount of outside. Second, when you follow forward to the foot rail, the outside will tend to make the cue ball go back through the rack area so you aren't as likely to lose the cue ball up-table.
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Which is why Jason Shaw didn't run 715.
 
Dan White said:
Which is why Jason Shaw didn't run 715.
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Or maybe it was he reason he ran 714. I just checked some of his other break shots and his standard seems to be plain follow and a fairly thin cut. I think the thin cut can also avoid an up-table cue ball.
 
I have no idea if this is true, but to me it's always felt like you can be more precise with using spin to throw the OB if the balls are dirty. Clean balls and the effect is less. Dirty balls sometimes behave weird on a plain cut, more CIT I'd guess. For this reason I'd rather hit a dirty ball much thicker and use spin on the CB to throw the OB into the pocket.

I've been mainly playing 9B lately. Talking 9B, I'd guess english on a break shot will have more effect on dirty balls. With clean balls I'd rather use the vertical axis to stop CB in the center of the table and leave the balls in an advantageous position. With dirty balls or on a junky rack/cloth that you cant get a good rack, I'd rather spin it. Extreme low outside and hit it to account for deflection.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Or maybe it was he reason he ran 714. I just checked some of his other break shots and his standard seems to be plain follow and a fairly thin cut. I think the thin cut can also avoid an up-table cue ball.
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Did you see the scratch break shot on 715? It was available on video recently but I couldn't get it just now. It was taken down I guess. What I recall is that it was not a thin cut. It was more like parallel to the side rail or maybe a touch over and my jaw dropped when I saw that he hit it without any outside. I am an expert at that scratch shot and saw it coming, or at least the potential, of course. As you know, it only takes a breath of outside to put the cue ball on a path much less likely to scratch. I can't imagine that amount of spin would reduce the spread enough to matter, but then I can't run 714, or even 471 or 417. I think I have a 147 in me if I live long enough.
 
Dan White said:
Did you see the scratch break shot on 715? It was available on video recently but I couldn't get it just now. It was taken down I guess. What I recall is that it was not a thin cut. It was more like parallel to the side rail or maybe a touch over and my jaw dropped when I saw that he hit it without any outside. I am an expert at that scratch shot and saw it coming, or at least the potential, of course. As you know, it only takes a breath of outside to put the cue ball on a path much less likely to scratch. I can't imagine that amount of spin would reduce the spread enough to matter, but then I can't run 714, or even 471 or 417. I think I have a 147 in me if I live long enough.
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No video, but here's a still.

I forget - did he make it and draw the CB back into the pocket that he broke from?

pj
chgo

Shaw shot 715.jpg

Shaw shot 715 (2).jpg
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
No video, but here's a still.

I forget - did he make it and draw the CB back into the pocket that he broke from?

pj
chgo
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That's a little more angle than I remember but it didn't help him because he was hitting low on the pack. He did come off the bottom rail.
 
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