English (side spin) effects on the cue ball after object ball collision

Saturated Fats

Saturated Fats

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been playing a lot of 14.1 for quite a few years now. During this time I've run into more than one 14.1 player who is convinced that using outside English on a traditional side of the rack break shot causes the cue ball to produce a better spread when deflecting into the rack. I can't find any evidence of this. I tried to research the subject in Dr. Dave's book, but so far no luck.

The book does say that "sidespin alone has no effect on the cue ball path until the cue ball contacts a rail", but I don't see where the subsequent collision with the rack might be otherwise dealt with.

Is there an authoritative source to answer this? Can someone come up with a simple enough demonstration that proves or disproves this?

I'm posting this in the main forum as well as the 14.1 forum.
 
I don’t know about side spin, but I do get better spreads when I use follow on the break vs draw. Couldn’t tell you why, or if it’s even accurate or in my head.
 
The primary factor in how the balls spread is where and at what angle you hit which ball and of course speed.
The reasons for using outside are in most cases to prevent scratches and keep the CB from going up table usually in conjunction with follow. Outside with draw is most likely because players feel it helps in pocketing the ball.
 
For conventional break shots, NO, spin doesn't have any effect on spreading the balls. It's all about speed and hit point on the rack. If you're break shot is a fine cut, top spin will most likely force the cue ball 'through' the rack, if hit hard enough, but side spin won't do much. Outside english is normally applied because players are used to pocket certain balls like this (to counter cut induced throw). Otherwise, side english can be used to manipulate the path of the cue ball after spreding the balls when it hits a rail.
 
I'm bored so bear with me...

It would be accurate to say that a spinning CB will transfer english into the OB struck in the rack. Would that imparted spin allow the OB to climb its way out the rack...? I would think this would potentially be more likely with a very dirty set of balls.

Honestly, I think it bs, but again Im bored so I'll entertain nearly anything at this point...lol
 
Side spin on break shots or cluster break outs helps to keep the cue ball from freezing to an object ball.
I also think that on small cluster break outs using slow speed a little side spin will separate the balls a little farther apart.
Just my observation of playing 14.1 for over 60 years,your results may vary.
 
The_JV said:
... It would be accurate to say that a spinning CB will transfer english into the OB struck in the rack. Would that imparted spin allow the OB to climb its way out the rack...? ...
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Just watch the object balls and see how many of them are visibly spinning (before they hit cushions).
 
Saturated Fats said:
The book does say that "sidespin alone has no effect on the cue ball path until the cue ball contacts a rail", .
Click to expand...
I've always wondered about this, that is, as an engineer, I learned that "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. So if I hit an OB full with right english, it throws the OB left, but the cue ball goes straight. It seems that the CB should be deflected to the right the same amount as the OB is deflected left. Observation after 60 plus years of playing tells me it goes straight, but it just doesn't seem right.

Bob (Jewett), maybe you can shed some light on this.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Just watch the object balls and see how many of them are visibly spinning (before they hit cushions).
Click to expand...
Wouldn't that only imply that the amount of possible english transfer is merely enough to remain active over that distance..?
 
The_JV said:
Wouldn't that only imply that the amount of possible english transfer is merely enough to remain active over that distance..?
Click to expand...
What I meant to say was: if the object ball is not visibly spinning right after contact with the cue ball, no significant energy was transferred to it by spin.
 
rostym said:
I've always wondered about this, that is, as an engineer, I learned that "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. So if I hit an OB full with right english, it throws the OB left, but the cue ball goes straight. It seems that the CB should be deflected to the right the same amount as the OB is deflected left. Observation after 60 plus years of playing tells me it goes straight, but it just doesn't seem right.

Bob (Jewett), maybe you can shed some light on this.
Click to expand...
For a nearly full shot, if the object ball is thrown to the right the cue ball is thrown equally to the left. Here "equally" means the same small speed change to the side. The effect of squirt makes the result a little confusing. In the following setup, if the cue ball and object ball are close enough, it is possible to make both balls move to the left of the line the cue ball and object ball start on. It is possible to make the OB in the corner and still get the cue ball to move to the left.

That seems impossible due to conservation of momentum. The trick is that the cue ball starts with motion to the left and the contact does not kill all of it.

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The_JV said:
I'm bored so bear with me...

It would be accurate to say that a spinning CB will transfer english into the OB struck in the rack. Would that imparted spin allow the OB to climb its way out the rack...? I would think this would potentially be more likely with a very dirty set of balls.

Honestly, I think it bs, but again Im bored so I'll entertain nearly anything at this point...lol
Click to expand...
And the spin from the OB is immediately transferred into the balls touching the OB. Think Newton's cradle.

I believe most of the spin dies immediately if the rack is tight. I would assume though that breaking from the left side into the 2nd ball with left english would put some left also into the 3rd ball and that would leave the rack a bit more likely. Right english would make the 3rd ball a bit more likely to stuck.

Correct if I'm wrong, 'cos I've never thought about this before 🤠
 
Playing English towards the rack absolutely will send more force into the rack. It’s variable though. If you make a tight cut on a ball using outside towards the rack, you didnt change the direction of the cb enough for the outside to help much. If you make a ~45 degrees
Cut with outside towards the rack and hit it solid, the spin helped out. Plus with all that spin you might send less force into the rack. You risk glancing off the first ball instead of sending a lot of force into the rack.

And on a standard break. I don’t care what anyone says. left/right do change layout and where the wing balls go. But that could be looked at two ways. Is it the English or the deflection aiming to the same spot that changes the layout. It’s probably the second one, but my brain doesn’t want to register that. There’s no real way to test that out because how can you tell if you are hitting the same exact spot on the rack at break speed?
 
Willowbrook Wolfy said:
... There’s no real way to test that out because how can you tell if you are hitting the same exact spot on the rack at break speed?
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And that is the problem. Any effect that you think might happen can be explained by the object ball going into a different part of the pocket, or the rack being different, or .... If you think there should be an effect, I think you will see an effect. Until it can be measured, I'll doubt it.
 
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