Eric Crisp - Sugartree cues REVIEW
- Thread starter pharaoh68
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bigshooter said:
If I was Eric...I'd take orders. From people I like. Beyond that...I'm with you...I'd make whatever the hell I pleased...approach the people I was fond of first to see if they were interested...and if they weren't...I'd throw it up here on the boards myself. I guarantee you I'd sure as hell never have a waiting list...and certainly not one in the hundreds. No disrespect intended to any cuemaker here that fits in under that description. I just wouldn't want to have to deal with the majority of the people who post in this joint...and thus represent a good portion of my potential customer base.
I understand people get upset when someone makes a promise and they underdeliver. I do. But really...when you haven't had to shell out a single goddam nickel of your own cash prior to the commencement of your cue being built...I really don't think anyone should gripe. After all...you ARE on their list...where so many that wish they were...aren't.
Eric and I have a great relationship...and I'm not even on his list. Anyone that has issues with him...please...let me know. I'll be more than happy to pay you for your spot in line.
You win some, you loose some. Eric has already mentioned it (He will make whatever he feels like making.). So folks, just move on if you can't wait. There are lots of good cuemakers out there.
I'll probably got flamed for this, but I'll say it anyway... The people who are pissed are most likely flippers of ST.
I for one was intrigue and would want a ST. I have an order or two and I can wait. I finally got a proto-type straight from Eric and it is good. It is worth the wait. Patience is indeed a virtue.
ps: Still waiting for my ST, but I ain't sweating and most likely will not hold my breath.
I'll probably got flamed for this, but I'll say it anyway... The people who are pissed are most likely flippers of ST.
I for one was intrigue and would want a ST. I have an order or two and I can wait. I finally got a proto-type straight from Eric and it is good. It is worth the wait. Patience is indeed a virtue.
ps: Still waiting for my ST, but I ain't sweating and most likely will not hold my breath.
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JoeyInCali said:
Well that's a little late don't you think?
Christ if its a hobby why even take orders? The fact that he took orders means it's not a hobby any longer but a business. So my question stands. When you took the order Eric did you tell them you only do this for a hobby and that it could be 40 years before you get to theirs, if ever? I know you didn't take anything (deposit) but that doesn't make not being up front right.
If you want cue building to be a hobby perhaps you should cancel all orders and just show up from time to time with a batch of cues for sale. You get to make the cues you want and make a some pocket change and no body gets pissed waiting for something that may never come. win win
But you can't run a business like a hobby. It's just going to piss you off and piss off customers. Lose Lose
just a thought.:smile:
I am not going to get into whether Eric should or should not be taking orders...or whether his cuemaking is a hobby and not a business..or even about waiting lists.
I will say this.....whether or not there was no deposit taken or given....if I were waiting on a cue, and the maker changed his mind on building that cue for me, I would at least like the courtesy extended to me to KNOW that I would no longer be receiving a cue from said maker, so that I was not waiting around for a cue that was never going to happen, and could move on to make an alternative choice. Would I be disappointed?...Sure! But I would get over it, and move on...but at least I would KNOW...I wouldn't be left out in limbo.
As in many other aspects of life....communication is HUGE in avoiding many misunderstandings and unpleasantries.
Lisa
I will say this.....whether or not there was no deposit taken or given....if I were waiting on a cue, and the maker changed his mind on building that cue for me, I would at least like the courtesy extended to me to KNOW that I would no longer be receiving a cue from said maker, so that I was not waiting around for a cue that was never going to happen, and could move on to make an alternative choice. Would I be disappointed?...Sure! But I would get over it, and move on...but at least I would KNOW...I wouldn't be left out in limbo.
As in many other aspects of life....communication is HUGE in avoiding many misunderstandings and unpleasantries.
Lisa
pharaoh68
Banned
Straycat said:
I'll do you one better. I'll give you directions. You're in Florida, right?
Head due north on I-95 until you get to New York. Once you ge there, turn left and.... (well, just read the message on the t-shirt in your sig).
You don't like my critique of Eric's horrific business practices? Order a cue from him. Then wait two years and see if the cue you get (if you get one at all) is the right order! Because so far, he's batting a thousand in he "I f***ed up and got caught" category!
wow all this drama, I never had any troubles with Eric or any cue maker. I'm no saint or anyone special, I just go out of my way to make people happy, He said he would make me a cue some day, we never put a time frame on it. He came to vegas and said he had one for me if I wanted it-but said he could make me a better one, I could have taken that cue he offered me and sold it for who knows? but its not about $$$ either so I said i'll wait, I have 2 of his cues I paid for them no doubt, but when he is ready I'll get the call. I dont put alot of expectation on someone like Eric, now if I had paid him in full like KV wants then there would be a big problem. /when you havent posted $$$ whats the beef a broken promis over I'd rather get along with someone that sweat a cue. Its just a fvcking cue, my relationship with Eric means more than that to me, and I only know him by phone. gotta have prioritys friends over cues. I wouldnt ever flip one of his cues either I'd sent it to Eric and let him have the jelly-bet that move wouldnt hurt a friendship either.
You have to treat people nicely even if it dosent mean getting what you want, now I'm not soft, I'm a brutal MF'er in business and will fire someone who is about to lose their house if I catch them stealing from me, lieing to my customers, etc. But Eric, Barry, Ernie are artists and they dont respond to $$$ like most people do or pressure, the worst thing you can do with them is pressure them(unless they have your $$$) Laurie at SW is my friend for 22 years, we never ever talk cues, I go to the shop and sleep on the floor when my back hurts, we have a long relationship. I love her she loves me(friendship only)- 100% plationic as friends only(Jerry was a dear friend of mine) everytime I go to their shop there is a pic of him and m eyes water up and pay my respects to that pic and Laurie-EVERYTIME, that friendship grew over the years because of Jerry, Mickey. Al, Chance, the whole crew, We might not talk for a year but we pick up where we left off, they dont have a 10 year wait list for me, know how many cues I order from them? Zero, why? I dont want to flip them or bump someone else, its respect. But if mine got stolen or fell apart whick aint gonna happen she would do me the favor, not because I'm special but because of our friendship. it would still take a while because it just does to build them.
Laurie and I talk about going to the gym, grand kids, trips, my mom(who went to their shop a few times before the passed away) were friends, its nice being friends. Laurie loved my mom, my mom talked about here alot and really liked Laurie alot, and the guys there at the shop as well, so thats why Laurie is family to me-FORGET CUES, She is like extended family to me, I hear the phone calls comming in and people sweating a cue, I understand to an extent because they are excited, I was on my first one I ordered on 7-1-86 and damned if I didnt wait to 5-87 10 months and it was still $350, I still have that cue,
Relationships, not kissing ass will get you anything in life much more than cues, going to battle with everyone you meet is aone of the fastest routes to failure, look at me I'm a regular guy who cant spell I do my best and I'm liked by most people here and those who dont I go out of my way to make amends with and become friends, its hard work-dosent awalys work, but I do my best to be liked and I like everyone even if thy dont like me. That will carry you far, then go ask Tooth to flip for $50,000, ok so Tooth dosent like me, he will someday.
cue makers sare a special breed I sent in one cue to Billy Teeter in 91, I just got it back last month at the BCA, it was under my friends bed for 4 years I didnt see him since then, point is I waited 17 years for that one, this aint Wall Street shit takes time with cue makers, ALL cue makers save Tascrella, its their nature accept it or buy production.
You have to treat people nicely even if it dosent mean getting what you want, now I'm not soft, I'm a brutal MF'er in business and will fire someone who is about to lose their house if I catch them stealing from me, lieing to my customers, etc. But Eric, Barry, Ernie are artists and they dont respond to $$$ like most people do or pressure, the worst thing you can do with them is pressure them(unless they have your $$$) Laurie at SW is my friend for 22 years, we never ever talk cues, I go to the shop and sleep on the floor when my back hurts, we have a long relationship. I love her she loves me(friendship only)- 100% plationic as friends only(Jerry was a dear friend of mine) everytime I go to their shop there is a pic of him and m eyes water up and pay my respects to that pic and Laurie-EVERYTIME, that friendship grew over the years because of Jerry, Mickey. Al, Chance, the whole crew, We might not talk for a year but we pick up where we left off, they dont have a 10 year wait list for me, know how many cues I order from them? Zero, why? I dont want to flip them or bump someone else, its respect. But if mine got stolen or fell apart whick aint gonna happen she would do me the favor, not because I'm special but because of our friendship. it would still take a while because it just does to build them.
Laurie and I talk about going to the gym, grand kids, trips, my mom(who went to their shop a few times before the passed away) were friends, its nice being friends. Laurie loved my mom, my mom talked about here alot and really liked Laurie alot, and the guys there at the shop as well, so thats why Laurie is family to me-FORGET CUES, She is like extended family to me, I hear the phone calls comming in and people sweating a cue, I understand to an extent because they are excited, I was on my first one I ordered on 7-1-86 and damned if I didnt wait to 5-87 10 months and it was still $350, I still have that cue,
Relationships, not kissing ass will get you anything in life much more than cues, going to battle with everyone you meet is aone of the fastest routes to failure, look at me I'm a regular guy who cant spell I do my best and I'm liked by most people here and those who dont I go out of my way to make amends with and become friends, its hard work-dosent awalys work, but I do my best to be liked and I like everyone even if thy dont like me. That will carry you far, then go ask Tooth to flip for $50,000, ok so Tooth dosent like me, he will someday.
cue makers sare a special breed I sent in one cue to Billy Teeter in 91, I just got it back last month at the BCA, it was under my friends bed for 4 years I didnt see him since then, point is I waited 17 years for that one, this aint Wall Street shit takes time with cue makers, ALL cue makers save Tascrella, its their nature accept it or buy production.
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Pii said:
What if it you run your hobby like a hobby? Then it just pisses off your customers. The only gripe anyone can POSSIBLY have...is his turn around time being longer than expected. But honestly...and we've been down this road ad nauseum...when you have NOTHING INVESTED in the situation...what is there to REALLY cry about. Be patient. From my experience...no one works better under duress...and there's no incentive for anyone to work harder, OR faster...when you can't even log on to your favorite forum without your inbox being full...and three threads being started about how it is full.
But I agree. I'd like to see him shitcan his list...and just make what he likes...and sell it direct on the forum or eBay...or through a website. These threads would disappear in a heartbeat.
Awesome post...fat boy. I haven't had the pleasure of working with too many people directly on the collaboration of having a cue built. My first was with the gentlemen of Carolina cues. Speaking with Trevor or any one of the guys at their shop, is a true joy. They LOVE what they do...and sometimes I think they're more excited about the cues they're making, then the people getting them. They did me a wonderful service at a wonderful price. I'd never hesitate to do business with them again. I've only ever talked to Eric through email. I've never spoke on the phone or met him in person. One day. Just like you said about Laurie...regarding your cue if something happened to it.... I feel the same way about Eric. IN the few years I've been in touch with him...he has always gone out of his way to accomodate me in the middle of all that he's done. I think we share a pretty good relationship, all things considered. Eric could stop building cues tomorrow...and I'd still stay in touch. I like him. He's a decent human being...and that's far more important to me than anything that ever comes off his lathe. I hope...maybe this upcoming year...we can get him to come up to the Super Billiards Expo at Valley Forge. I'd personally like a chance to take him out for dinner and a beer. I'd even spring for his ticket to get here. I'm sure his buddy Jamie Wernsman at New2YouQ's wouldn't mind sharin' his booth with him.
pharaoh68
Banned
Fatboy-
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you here, and I'll tell you why. As you said yourself in your post above, Eric never put a timeframe on the cue he promised you. He gave me one.
Now I've ordered cues from cuemakers before. I understand that sometimes delivery dates come and go and, because of a backlog of work, personal issues, and a slew of other things, sometimes deadlines are missed. It happens. And had I hounded Eric once or twice a week with questions as to where my cue was and how come I didn't receive it, I could understand him saying "This guy is an ass and I don't wanna have to deal with him!"
But that is NOT what happened here. I approached Eric with nothing but kindness and respect. And he, in turn, was cordial to me. But here's the big difference between your story and mine: ERIC GAVE ME A TIMEFRAME FOR COMPLETION! I didn't demand one. He offered it to me. And like I said, sometimes timeframes come and go.
And Eric himself admitted that I might have seen results if I was more persistent. But instead I wasn't. I gave him the space that you think people should. And what did he do with it? He promised me that my order was coming along nicely. This, as Eric also admitted was nothing more than "playing peek-a-boo".
Then, in an attempt to defend himself, Eric admitted that he actually was working on an order and that the woods did in fact move. But it wasn't my order. I know this because the woods he cited were not my woods. And he claims that it was for THE OTHER cue I ordered seeing as I ordered two cues at the same time. Well, that too is a fallacy. I ordered one cue. After a year of no results, the order was changed. And Eric should know this because HE suggested the woods to be used. Still, nothing.
It was an order for one cue all along. And Bacote never entered the picture. I would have sat back and not cared about delivery dates if:
A) Eric hadn't provide one himself. I never asked for one. He volunteered that info.
B) Eric hadn't made the choice to bypass orders like mine to fill his dealer orders instead. Plenty of others got their cues while mione was supposedly being restsrted, and restarted several times over.
By choosing to fill your dealer orders, you automatically prove that your "hobby" means more to you than just a passion and a way to kill time. Eric wanted his name out there. And he screwed people over in the process.
I understand your point, but it just simply doesn't apply here.
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you here, and I'll tell you why. As you said yourself in your post above, Eric never put a timeframe on the cue he promised you. He gave me one.
Now I've ordered cues from cuemakers before. I understand that sometimes delivery dates come and go and, because of a backlog of work, personal issues, and a slew of other things, sometimes deadlines are missed. It happens. And had I hounded Eric once or twice a week with questions as to where my cue was and how come I didn't receive it, I could understand him saying "This guy is an ass and I don't wanna have to deal with him!"
But that is NOT what happened here. I approached Eric with nothing but kindness and respect. And he, in turn, was cordial to me. But here's the big difference between your story and mine: ERIC GAVE ME A TIMEFRAME FOR COMPLETION! I didn't demand one. He offered it to me. And like I said, sometimes timeframes come and go.
And Eric himself admitted that I might have seen results if I was more persistent. But instead I wasn't. I gave him the space that you think people should. And what did he do with it? He promised me that my order was coming along nicely. This, as Eric also admitted was nothing more than "playing peek-a-boo".
Then, in an attempt to defend himself, Eric admitted that he actually was working on an order and that the woods did in fact move. But it wasn't my order. I know this because the woods he cited were not my woods. And he claims that it was for THE OTHER cue I ordered seeing as I ordered two cues at the same time. Well, that too is a fallacy. I ordered one cue. After a year of no results, the order was changed. And Eric should know this because HE suggested the woods to be used. Still, nothing.
It was an order for one cue all along. And Bacote never entered the picture. I would have sat back and not cared about delivery dates if:
A) Eric hadn't provide one himself. I never asked for one. He volunteered that info.
B) Eric hadn't made the choice to bypass orders like mine to fill his dealer orders instead. Plenty of others got their cues while mione was supposedly being restsrted, and restarted several times over.
By choosing to fill your dealer orders, you automatically prove that your "hobby" means more to you than just a passion and a way to kill time. Eric wanted his name out there. And he screwed people over in the process.
I understand your point, but it just simply doesn't apply here.
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pharaoh68, I appreciate your personal review. I like to hear both good and bad reviews of any cue maker or business for that matter. When I read many good reviews is all the same positive points and that is a good thing, but a bad review is equally if not more important too me. I'd like to see what went wrong and what did that business do to correct that wrong and if I can live with that problem myself. If I can't, I don't care how many good reviews there are I wont do business with that company.
You many not have been out any money so people think its not a big deal, but the whole situation sounds like a complete waste of time and 2 years at that. I don't mind if it takes a really long time to get a project done, but I can't stand it when people waste my time. Time is more important then money especially as I get older. Good luck to you and I hope you find the right cue for you and enjoy it.
You many not have been out any money so people think its not a big deal, but the whole situation sounds like a complete waste of time and 2 years at that. I don't mind if it takes a really long time to get a project done, but I can't stand it when people waste my time. Time is more important then money especially as I get older. Good luck to you and I hope you find the right cue for you and enjoy it.
I've never met a good cue maker that is on time, there probably are exceptions but I aint seen them and I have alot of top shelf cues and worked with alot of top cue makers since 85. Its the nature of the game(not pool) with cue makers and it dosent bother me a bit, you give them time and room you'll end up with the best cues possible. Its like rushing a wine maker it just dosent work, the shitthey make fast in the wine business ends uop in plastic bladders in card board boxes, the stuff the wine makers take time making ends up in fine wine collections-same thing for cue makers, not all cues by the same maker are the same. something to think about...:smile:
pharaoh68
Banned
Fatboy said:
Again I understand the point you are trying to make but again your analogy is a stretch. You can't rush a fine wine because the grapes need time to grow and ferment, etc, etc.
Woods just need to be cut. And yes. I know there is more to cuemaking than that. But I'm trying to make a point and that point is..
Those woods can not and will not be cut until the maker stops bull-shitting you and does the work! Eric imposed his own timeframe. He set his own deadlines. And for whatever reason, he thought the best way to make up for the promise he CHOSE not to keep was to keep lying to me.
So really, the conparison to fine wines doesn't apply here. Eric made this mistake all on his own. My only mistake was assuming he was a good businessman and a man of his word. Well, live and learn.
it takes years to get good BEM, it will move if its just cut down in one pass through the lathe, i'm not a cue maker but i know a bit about cue making and wood, and the grapes thing isnt a perfect fit for a anology it was as close as I could get. Wood is a living breathing material to work with, now Bushkas are so old they are immune to most climate conditions, Erics greener younger wood isnt. Its easy for a neqwer cue maker to have all sorts of wood problems. When a cue maker passes away or retires their inventory of old wood is gold, as you cant speed up the natural curing of wood. McDermott tried and you get balsa woos shafts-its junk.
Tad, Barry Szam, Laurie SW, all have real old wood in their inventory so their production time is cut down, they are turning down shafts befor they know what cues they are for, at SW they cut them every 30 days i think they make 10 cuts so thats 300 days. If you want a timly cue buy production cues, what can I say? my best to you and your persuit of cues and happiensss.
Tad, Barry Szam, Laurie SW, all have real old wood in their inventory so their production time is cut down, they are turning down shafts befor they know what cues they are for, at SW they cut them every 30 days i think they make 10 cuts so thats 300 days. If you want a timly cue buy production cues, what can I say? my best to you and your persuit of cues and happiensss.
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pharaoh68 said:
Brain,
Regardless of his protests, let me say that I think Eric Crisp will take this lesson to heart and it eventually will benefit him. He is a good hearted man and he has ethics. I have had a few e-mails with Eric and I think he is a really nice man with great ethics. He's obviously a terrific cue maker.
Despite his words here , maybe he is a little disappointed in the way things worked out too. I think he's a perfectionist. It a hard thing to be sometimes.
I know earlier in my own career, 20 years ago, I personally sometimes took on too way much, perhaps when I should have said "I can't". I wanted t please everybody. I worked all hours until I couldn't go on anymore, and sometimes I disappointed people and did them a disservice by taking on their projects. I gfelt bad, but just didn't have the wherewithal to acccomplish every project i accepted, no matter how badly I wanted to.
I guess I thought I was the best thing for my customers even if I could only give them a limited amount of attention, but believe me, I wasn't. I tried to straighten everything out when I couldn't deliver on time, but my customers sometimes paid the price for my oversights.
Later I started saying "no" and it was the finest, most liberating feeling in the world. The word "no" is very powerful and finally gave me supreme control over my own destiny. It really does. But you have to know just when to use it.
Chris
I dunno but that seems fast. I thought they cut every 6 weeks or more.Fatboy said:.
Tad, Barry Szam, Laurie SW, all have real old wood in their inventory so their production time is cut down, they are turning down shafts befor they know what cues they are for, at SW they cut them every 30 days i think they make 10 cuts so thats 300 days. If you want a timly cue buy production cues, what can I say? my best to you and your persuit of cues and happiensss.
Tad's shafts imo stay the straightest among any maker now.
pharaoh68
Banned
Fatboy said:....If you want a timly cue buy production cues, what can I say? my best to you and your persuit of cues and happiensss.
I never said I wanted a timely cue. I wanted to NOT BE LIED TO!!! That's all!!!
If Eric had told me "two years" I would have said, sign me up and call me when its ready.
If he had said "I know three months was the original schedule but things happen" I would have said, 'Hey man! I understand. Sh!t happens.'
But instead he said "Coming along nicely", "Pics to come", "Gotta start over", "Gotta start over again" and then, the clincher....
"I was playing peek-a-boo with you".
Thisis what I have an issue with. Two years of a wait is fine. Hell, I'd wait 15 years to get a Richard Harris cue. But what Eric did was make a promise that he didn't keep (it happens), but worse still, that he never intended to keep, as is evident by the fact that he:
A) played 'peek-a-boo' with me;
B) was working with woods that were NOT my woods.
If he didn't want to or intend to build the cue, just man up and tell me. Thats all.
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