European Straight Pool Pedigree

PhilosopherKing

PhilosopherKing

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We all know the story of straight pool in America and its cast of characters and how knowledge trickled down from generation to generation. And, there have been threads in the main forum discussing the lineage of the Filipino rotation game, but how on earth did the Europeans come up with the ingredients for such high level 14.1, and how did they do it in such short order?

Germany? Finland? The Netherlands? who were the forefathers? I'm talking before Ortmann, before Souquet.

Thanks
 
part of it is system induced

Hi:

I believe that one reason for maybe a higher straight pool awareness in Europe comes from the league play system. Like in all sports in Europe you have a national organization sanctioning the sport (of pool in this case). <they incorporated a system that allows good teams to move up a level and (of course) bad teams to move down. This goes all the way, from the level of say a very small town to teams that play nation wide. All the three big games in Europe (9ball, 8ball & Straight pool) are played on each of those levels. Thus every interested player has to get to know the game quiet early in his carrier.
On the other side, I found it very hard to play straight pool in the US until I got in touch with Dennis and joined the IBC for a while (Hi Guys! :smile: ). Basically I believe you can circumvent the game too easily in the US. Sometimes you have to force people to their luck! :wink:

Best
Michael
 
curiousofpool said:
Hi:

I believe that one reason for maybe a higher straight pool awareness in Europe comes from the league play system. Like in all sports in Europe you have a national organization sanctioning the sport (of pool in this case). <they incorporated a system that allows good teams to move up a level and (of course) bad teams to move down. This goes all the way, from the level of say a very small town to teams that play nation wide. All the three big games in Europe (9ball, 8ball & Straight pool) are played on each of those levels. Thus every interested player has to get to know the game quiet early in his carrier.
On the other side, I found it very hard to play straight pool in the US until I got in touch with Dennis and joined the IBC for a while (Hi Guys! :smile: ). Basically I believe you can circumvent the game too easily in the US. Sometimes you have to force people to their luck! :wink:

Best
Michael
Click to expand...

We use the same "league" system in Norway, where players from all levels needs to play 14-1, 8-ball and 9-ball during the season.

I know it's the same in Denmark and Sweden.
 
curiousofpool said:
Hi:

I believe that one reason for maybe a higher straight pool awareness in Europe comes from the league play system. Like in all sports in Europe you have a national organization sanctioning the sport (of pool in this case). <they incorporated a system that allows good teams to move up a level and (of course) bad teams to move down. This goes all the way, from the level of say a very small town to teams that play nation wide. All the three big games in Europe (9ball, 8ball & Straight pool) are played on each of those levels. Thus every interested player has to get to know the game quiet early in his carrier.
On the other side, I found it very hard to play straight pool in the US until I got in touch with Dennis and joined the IBC for a while (Hi Guys! :smile: ). Basically I believe you can circumvent the game too easily in the US. Sometimes you have to force people to their luck! :wink:

Best
Michael
Click to expand...

Hi, Michael. we miss you at the IBC, We will be having our banquet tomorrow. Eddy Latimer ran a 100 last week. Me and Rickies Sr. and Junior got to see John Schmidt last night do an exhibition in Manteno, Illinois.

To get back on point, how long have they been using that sort of a system. Was that system in place when Ortmann was coming up. When did it start? I wonder who taught Ortmann 14.1. I heard that Souquet took a few weeks of lessons from Jim Rempe but I imagine he could already play pretty sporty.

I wonder what sort of tradition 14.1 had in the Netherlands.
 
Souquet & Ortmann were great Juniors already

Hi Dennis:

I'm not sure why the US is not using a system like this. Everybody else seems too. Maybe the distances? But, this is mainly a question of sports philosophies. Too difficult for my limited knowledge.

However, I believe the system was already in place when Ortmann and Souquet grew up. If you look at the player profiles of Ortmann and Souquet on "http://www.epconline.eu/" you will see that both were already very good very young. Both won their first (Junior; <21) European championships at the age of 16 or 17. Souquet won three straight pool junior championships in a row (86-88).
However, I'm not sure about their coaches or when this league system was started. Could somebody else chip in?

Michael
 
til the middle of the 90 there were leagues just for 8 Ball and straight-pool- 4 players per team were needed. And further there was also a Straight-pool Elite-leage until the 1988 or so- Here you ve had to qualify thru state-tournaments until there were 18 players- and those played this league on 4 tournaments til the end if i remember correctly- top players at these days were already *young* Oliver Ortmann, Frank Scharbach, Norbert Lang,Edgar Nickel, Günter Geisen and some guys more- if i remember these days...*close to tears- rofl* - i failed with 1 Balll to reach this f....in league in the final match ^^ *f..k* :eek:
I miss those days really :(. I loved the 14-1 team league and even so the 8-Ball league- but then 9-Ball came and in the middle of the 90 s they decided to switch to the combination-league where 8-9 Ball and 14-1 have had to be played. Even in germany they *try* to shoot straight pool out more and more. just 9-Ball and 10-Ball seemin to have a reputation. Some ppl think straight pool isn t good enough to watch- same thing like in USA :(

Atm we have so many good straight pool players here- but think there will be less every year- all young guys going for the *fast* game.

lg
Ingo
 
dmgwalsh said:
Hi, Michael. we miss you at the IBC, We will be having our banquet tomorrow. Eddy Latimer ran a 100 last week. Me and Rickies Sr. and Junior got to see John Schmidt last night do an exhibition in Manteno, Illinois.

To get back on point, how long have they been using that sort of a system. Was that system in place when Ortmann was coming up. When did it start? I wonder who taught Ortmann 14.1. I heard that Souquet took a few weeks of lessons from Jim Rempe but I imagine he could already play pretty sporty.

I wonder what sort of tradition 14.1 had in the Netherlands.
Click to expand...

I recall in the late 70s Sweden used to send a group of players
to the PPPA World Championships in NYC. Eva was still Svensen in those
days, she was one of half a dozen or so players and a coach who came
a few years.

I don't know any details for certain, but gossip among the spectators
was that they were some kind of goverment sponsored group.
So, I assume they had some kind of formal national level pool orginization.
Do you need any further proof that the Scandinavians are a more
advanced civilization than we are?

There was also a Junior player from Germany, a 15 year old named Max
something, who played faster than Lou Butera...

Those were the days.

Dale
 
Could it be the result of a snooker background?

People always wondered how good Efren might have been if he played straight pool, but I'd have to think that a guy like Ronnie O'Sullivan could very well run balls until the end of time if he chose to focus on the game.
 
Believe me: Efren *can* play straight-pool. I think he would even beat many top-players (not all) without special straight-pool training, like Francisco did, too. And anyway- the match from Efren agaist *King* Jim Rempe wasn t that bad for a *non-straight-pooler* :p

And i think many of the top-lvl players which are ranked atm would play awesome 14-1,if they would spend much time on it. Just take a look at Thorsten. With his systematic training, discipline and his love for straight-pool he became what he s now!

The guys have to live from their tournaments-and sponsors- so they have to play the given games :)

lg
ingo
 
European tradition

Ratta said:
Believe me: Efren *can* play straight-pool. I think he would even beat many top-players (not all) without special straight-pool training, like Francisco did, too. And anyway- the match from Efren agaist *King* Jim Rempe wasn t that bad for a *non-straight-pooler* :p

And i think many of the top-lvl players which are ranked atm would play awesome 14-1,if they would spend much time on it. Just take a look at Thorsten. With his systematic training, discipline and his love for straight-pool he became what he s now!

The guys have to live from their tournaments-and sponsors- so they have to play the given games :)

lg
ingo
Click to expand...

I was watching an old match this morning. Bill Staton v. Oliver "white sox" Ortmann from the 1989 US Open. I was struck by a couple of things.

Bill Staton played some nice under control patterns. Old style to be sure, but he came with a big stroke when he had to plow through the rack.

Oliver was absolutely fearless and he took no time at all. Many times he would end up with pot luck but then he would drill a long shot in. He moved so fast I almost got tired watching him.

I wonder if the Europeans in general, before Oliver, learned a more old style straight pool or were they all taught like him to blast the heck out of the balls. Engert may have had a more controlled game. He did have a smoother tempo, I thought.

Since you are part of that tradition, what do you think?
 
I am 100 percent in your mind- Oliver is very special- and his nickname is really what he presents *the machine*. If he s running *hot* and gettin into stroke he s terrible fast- and totally fearless. Think the last great 14-1 tournament (sorry if i remember not correclt) he shot 4 games in a row 100 and out- and the 5th game even so a big run. I love to watch Sigel for example more- even so Ralf Souquet s straight pool is great from that what i saw- (and there he was a very young guy :p). There were some guys which preferred the old-style.
Again: i m totally with you<. Oliver was, is and will be very special - and i think everyone shares my opinion (no matter what style he s playin): he s still a fantastic player and a champion. And he is one of the few players where the nick-name is really program, lol^^
 
Ratta said:
I am 100 percent in your mind- Oliver is very special- and his nickname is really what he presents *the machine*. If he s running *hot* and gettin into stroke he s terrible fast- and totally fearless. Think the last great 14-1 tournament (sorry if i remember not correclt) he shot 4 games in a row 100 and out- and the 5th game even so a big run. I love to watch Sigel for example more- even so Ralf Souquet s straight pool is great from that what i saw- (and there he was a very young guy :p). There were some guys which preferred the old-style.
Again: i m totally with you<. Oliver was, is and will be very special - and i think everyone shares my opinion (no matter what style he s playin): he s still a fantastic player and a champion. And he is one of the few players where the nick-name is really program, lol^^
Click to expand...

I was at the world straight pool championship this year and saw him up close when he was running all those balls. He certainly still has it. However, he seems more in control now than he did back then.

I was wondering whether, pre-Oliver, the 14.1 game was modeled after, for example a Diliberto, Hopkins style of player or whether the game was re-invented over in Europe with everyone learning a hard hitting style of play.
 
dmgwalsh said:
I was watching an old match this morning. Bill Staton v. Oliver "white sox" Ortmann from the 1989 US Open. I was struck by a couple of things.

Bill Staton played some nice under control patterns. Old style to be sure, but he came with a big stroke when he had to plow through the rack.

Oliver was absolutely fearless and he took no time at all. Many times he would end up with pot luck but then he would drill a long shot in. He moved so fast I almost got tired watching him.

I wonder if the Europeans in general, before Oliver, learned a more old style straight pool or were they all taught like him to blast the heck out of the balls. Engert may have had a more controlled game. He did have a smoother tempo, I thought.

Since you are part of that tradition, what do you think?
Click to expand...

Could equipment be the missing link? With the American tradition being so much older, the game's foundation may have been built to suit the less reliable equipment and playing conditions of the day.

The Europeans, it seems, did reinvent the game, and perhaps it was the new, better equipment that dictated the shape of it.
 
PhilosopherKing said:
Could it be the result of a snooker background?

People always wondered how good Efren might have been if he played straight pool, but I'd have to think that a guy like Ronnie O'Sullivan could very well run balls until the end of time if he chose to focus on the game.
Click to expand...

Mostly, the European 14.1 players don't come from a Snooker background,
except for what-his-name Appleton, who was ranked a healthy 128th
among Snooker pros before he switched to American Pool.

Historically, Snooker players have not done all that well at 14.1.
The Steve Davis<who was dominating the world> vs Steve Mizerack
challange maches of the 80s saw Davis run maybe 50 - 60 balls.
Mizerack actually did much better at Snooker than Davis did at Pool.

Perhaps it is due to the fact that, at the championship level, 14.1
is so much more complex than Snooker.

Or, maybe, the Snooker pros make so much more money than Pool
pays, why bother with it.

Dale
 
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pdcue said:
Or, maybe, the Snooker pros make so much more money than Pool
pays, why bother with it.

Dale
Click to expand...

I think this might be it more than anything. I suspect the Miz would have played more snooker in his time than Steve would have played 14.1. If any player could make a smooth transition to straight pool, I think it would be Steve Davis as his cue ball control has always been imaculate. He would also pick up the tactical nuances fairly quickly.

PhilosopherKing, I seem to remember Danny Barouty saying during commentary that in the US players are used to substandard equipment which necessitates tighter control, whereas on easier and/or more reliable equipment you can play a more aggressive shotmaking game.
 
PhilosopherKing said:
who were the forefathers? I'm talking before Ortmann, before Souquet.
Click to expand...
all I can say is Sweden. Check the link already mentioned here, http://www.epconline.eu (go to Archive -> Hall of Fame). The Swedish were supeior to anyone for quite a while in all games, 14.1 included. Sweden, Norway and Germany ruled 14.1 ECs for very long time. Sorry I don't know how the Swedes adopted 14.1 but I know some were learning from Nick Varner.
 
I don't know about all parts of europe, but being from Belgium myself I can say that snooker is actualy 'a serious underdog' as far as popularity goes. At least in my area.

I am fairly certain that even pool doesn't come anywhere near being as popular or often played in Belgium as it is in, say the US.
However, what I do notice is somewhat more 'inter-european' leagues and games.

If you live in the US, unless you hit close to canada/mexico you could find youself driving around for a day and still be in the US.
However I live 15min. by car from the border with the Netherlands, and about 25 or so from the border with Germany.
Drive south for a good 1.5hrs and I hit France. Take a train, and I hit England.

In the local club where I play, we are mostly above-average players. Better then the average player in the poolhall, but by no means a pro.
However one player in our group has somewhat 'upped' himself. He got better quite fast.
But he got to know some german, french, englisch, dutch etc. players in some tournaments, and decided to keep in contact with them.
every month or so, he spends a weekend in another european country, and plays pool with a player of his level there.

Add to that the 'competition system' allready explained by curiousofpool, and you get players with somewhat even skill in 2 countries, being seperated by a small drive.
You don't have to guess where other players of your skill level are. You can really determine your relative skill level by this competition system, and find others whitout playing every APA league until you find someone who plays at about your level.

So even though our history may not be as elaborate as the US's. And game popularity (at least in my area) nowhere near as much, we do have the benefit of being a 'close-knit' group of countries. and the top players can easily boost eachother up and get the level needed for international play, just as much as say American or Phillipino players can.

That's my 0.02$ for what it's worth.
 
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