Everest tip spongy after cutting?

[Dudley]

Hello all,

I am a machinist by trade so naturally I like to retip my own cues on my sag-14 Graziano lathe. I usually use le pros and can install a tip that doesn't mushroom and burnishes well. If I burnish them a couple times during the first week of play they are usually good for the rest of their life.

I typically use a dead sharp insert cutter on my cross slide to cut the tip although I have used the razor technique.

The other day I installed an Everest on my playing cue and was concerned how "springy" the tip was after cutting. I actually cut the first one off thinking that I delaminated it and put another one on being really careful to take light cuts to the finish depth. (.02" or so) Nothing was really different on the second tip so I sanded the sides a little, burnished it, shaped it and took it to the hall for a test drive.

I like the way it plays but being that I usually don't install layered tips I was wondering if this seems normal or not. It feels firm pressing from the top but it does have little movement if I push on it from the side.

Do cuemakers usually put a thinned down layer of super glue on their tips to keep the sides of the tip harder?

Maybe this is just how a softer (then a lepro) tip is?

Dudley

 

[aphelps1]

I cut all non-layered tip with a carbide tipped cutter, but I only use a razorblade to cut layered tips. It seems like the razor does not fuzz the sides like even a sharp cutter has a tendency to do. Others will burnish the sides with super glue, but I don't.

My 2 cents,
Alan

 

[Dudley]

I cut all non-layered tip with a carbide tipped cutter, but I only use a razorblade to cut layered tips. It seems like the razor does not fuzz the sides like even a sharp cutter has a tendency to do. Others will burnish the sides with super glue, but I don't.

My 2 cents,
Alan

Thanks Alan for the response,

I know what you mean about fuzz. I'll give the razor a try on the layered tips and stick with my insert cutter for the nonlayered tips as you suggest. Is there any disadvantage to the super glue on the sides of the tip besides making them unnaturally hard?

Dudley

 

[tlayne]

Whats the speed your using on your lathe with the insert cutter. The faster the better I think. I use the a razor blade as well, but you have to be careful with the layered tips. My first one looked like a hour glass, but that what me again learning the hard way.

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

Whether you use a cutting tool, in your tool post or you use the blade to cut the sides, use a cupped live center up against the new tip. If the tip is not supported you will tear the layers apart...JER

 

[Mr Hoppe]

I personally love how the Everest hits, it grips the CB really well and allows for lots of spin. However, installers don't usuallly like it because it's a bit fuzzy and spongy during installation.
Mr H

 

[Sheldon]

Of the hundreds I've installed, I've had 2 delaminate, and I can't recall ever getting a spongy one.
I apply tailstock pressure, and cut them with a razor blade.

 

[Dudley]

tlayne,

If I recall correctly I was turning the lathe around 800 rpms.


Sheldon and Blackheart,

Tailstock pressure makes allot of sense. If the tip layers are held together they can't rip apart.

I guess I'm going to get a little more sophisticated with my technique for holding the shaft in the chuck. Currently I am using an 8" chuck with a split piece of soft plastic tubing. I can't clamp down without crushing the shaft. A live center pushing on the tip would just move the whole shaft in the jaws which still might help a little but it would be nice to have something more solid.

I will need to add a little chuck to the back of the lathe which I can use to support the back of the shaft which will allow me to use a cupped or flat live center on the tip as you suggest.

thanks for the help,

Dudley

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Toolpost cutters are highly discouraged for laminated cue tips - per Tiger Products.

Some do have success using the above, perhaps with a live center holding the tip; however you have zero feel in the above scenario and can easily blow out a perfectly good tip.

Blown out tip = spongy/accordion-like tip. No good.

Advice: use very sharp cutting blades (new, or freshly sharpened) and add moisture (spit, damp cloth) to the edges of the tip before cutting. The lube helps for a clean cut.

 

[cueguy]

Sharp

Toolpost cutters are highly discouraged for laminated cue tips - per Tiger Products.

Some do have success using the above, perhaps with a live center holding the tip; however you have zero feel in the above scenario and can easily blow out a perfectly good tip.

Blown out tip = spongy/accordion-like tip. No good.

Advice: use very sharps cutting blades (new, or freshly sharpened) and add moisture (spit, damp cloth) to the edges of the tip before cutting. The lube helps for a clean cut.

Tap, tap, tap!

Having sharp blades and using spit seems to work for me!

Larry

 

[Michael Webb]

Toolpost cutters are highly discouraged for laminated cue tips - per Tiger Products.

.

Corey with all due respect, I'll agree to disagree, Using these cutters is what we do, other than an occasional bad tip which can happen to anyone and not necessarily a Tiger tip, It shouldn't be a problem across the board.

 

[claymont]

Did you ever see this?

 

[Dudley]

Toolpost cutters are highly discouraged for laminated cue tips - per Tiger Products.

Some do have success using the above, perhaps with a live center holding the tip; however you have zero feel in the above scenario and can easily blow out a perfectly good tip.

Blown out tip = spongy/accordion-like tip. No good.

Advice: use very sharps cutting blades (new, or freshly sharpened) and add moisture (spit, damp cloth) to the edges of the tip before cutting. The lube helps for a clean cut.

Next time I do a layered tip I'll try using moisture and a razor. Maybe it is just a better technique. In my machining experience nothing beats a perfectly ground carbide insert cutter but this probably doesn't apply to cutting leather.

When I said spongy I meant that the tip had allot of movement before I burnished it it seemed to improve after I burnished and shaped it.

When you cut a layered tip with the razor/moisture technique does it maintain the same firmness as before it was cut? I'm not sure what they do to it at the factory but the sides are really hard out of the box.

thank you for the helpful response,

Dudley

 

[Michael Webb]

Did you ever see this?

Yes Sir, I did. With practice and hopefully not on a customers shaft first, It's an option but, a safety hazard too. What's comfortable for one is not necessarily comfortable for everyone. I'm pretty sporty with a utility blade but I don't teach it. If I do, guess where the liability is if someone gets hurt. Welcome to the millenium.

 

[dave sutton]

I use moisture and a razor blade also. In my 10+ years It's the best results IMO. The utlilty blade is always sharp. Then after a few tips toss it and grab a new one. The moisture makes the leather cut easier. Also a small concave live center to not allow the tip to expand

I also press them in a vise overnight. Over the last 5 years I've used everst and sniper almost exclusively. Hundreds of tips later I e can not recall a bad tip. Any problem is usually due to installion error like dull cutter.

To me there is no way a lathe tool Can be as sharp and a utility blade. JMO

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Next time I do a layered tip I'll try using moisture and a razor. Maybe it is just a better technique. In my machining experience nothing beats a perfectly ground carbide insert cutter but this probably doesn't apply to cutting leather.

Right! Not leather.

When I said spongy I meant that the tip had allot of movement before I burnished it it seemed to improve after I burnished and shaped it.

That movement is the glue having been torqued loose. Burnishing will help, but that tip will not perform anywhere near optimally.

When you cut a layered tip with the razor/moisture technique does it maintain the same firmness as before it was cut? I'm not sure what they do to it at the factory but the sides are really hard out of the box.

Actually, following install and burnishing, the side firmness may be better!

 

[Dudley]

Right! Not leather.



That movement is the glue having been torqued loose. Burnishing will help, but that tip will not perform anywhere near optimally.



Actually, following install and burnishing, the side firmness may be better!

Thanks Corey,

What kind of burnishing compound do you use? I've heard of allot of techniques from spit to wax paper. I've lately been using gum tragacanth and a piece of leather with pretty good results.

Dudley

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

Thanks Corey,

What kind of burnishing compound do you use? I've heard of allot of techniques from spit to wax paper. I've lately been using gum tragacanth and a piece of leather with pretty good results.

Dudley

I use ammonia on a folded paper towel & then burnish with leather...JER

 

[Dudley]

I use ammonia on a folded paper towel & then burnish with leather...JER

I'll give this a whirl also...thanks for sharing.

Dud

 

[scdiveteam]

everest tip

Greetings,

I have a cue repair business at my pool hall and have been doing lamiated tips for over 6 years. Recently I have done a few of these new Everest tip that many of the good players like.

I don't have a problem with fuzz or the tip softening, your are doubtless running at too fast a speed or have a dull cutter. I use a sharp carbide cutter and spit burnish between cuts on the side as well as the radius cutting.

My problem with these tips is the way they look when I am done. The lamination layers seem to form a corrigated or ridged look on the side that I am not happy with. The Morie, Tasiman and other lamiated tip never presented this way when I was finished. I used to cut the Mories, ect. with a razor but learned to get the same finish look using carbide at a lower speed and then step sand from 100 to 1500 before burnishing. It all about repeatability and long life to the player. If the tips are getting soft they will delaminate and the customer will not be happy.

I cut the laminated radius by losening my cutter in the tool post and holding it on a 45 degree angle to get a sharp cut line on the side of the tip. I then rotate the tool to get the radius accross the front of the tip spit burnishing 3 to 5 times untile the proper radius is obtained.

I am only able to do this on my Unique Cue Companion because chuck does not have jaws that can bite you. The chuck is internal. I can get both hands very close to the chuck without even giving a second thought to the safety of my hands. I have 7 other real lathes in our cuemaking shop and I would not attempt this technique on a chuck with jaws. ( Safety First!!)

By using the slower speed and a very sharp carbide cutter, I do not lose the center of the tip at the apex of the laminate substrate. It is very important not the let the tip get too hot and you must spit on it and burnish it with a paper towel between cuts before the perfect radius is formed. I have been using this process for about 3 years now and have not lost a liminated tip. Before using this process I would screw up one every now and then. Again the key is sharp and slower. High speed and dull is a loser.

Because of the corrigated look, I think I will use the razor blade process on my next Everest to see what happens.

Very truly yours,

Rick Geschrey