Everyone is against production-made cues?

Fast Davie NC said:
Remember... back in the 80's, all the top players played with Joss, Meucci. Mcdermott, Schon, Huebler. I play with a joss butt to this day! This is very consistent, compared to other "Custom Cues" in my collection. Would you rather know what you are getting? Or spend a lot of money on something that you don't know how it plays? You Might eventually sell it or put on the furniture piece? This doesn't make since for my money! Granted there are alot of great cue-makers "Out-There". I would rather play the game with something comftorable and gamble on the rest!!!
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One thing to remember when you see a top touring pro playing with a Meucci or Viking is that they are sponsored by those companies and pretty much have to use them. I'm not really knocking production cues though. I'll admit, I have a custom cue addiction, but there are plenty of production cues out there that work just as well as mine, I just prefer the custom route.
MULLY
when I went to see SouthWest's "factory", for lack of a better term, there was a cue on the wall in the early stages with a tag on it that said "E. Strickland" and this was when he was still working for Cuetec.
 
That wouldn't have been Tom Rossman would it...?
I tried buying his at a tournament a couple of years ago.
He gave me the number on the guy who made it instead..

<----once got beat by a guy with a cue that was an exact replica of a No.2 Pencil. Had the eraser and hexagonal butt and everything.
True story.

Indian not the arrow.[/QUOTE]
 
I personally have played with multiple custom cues from Southwest, Dominiak... even a rare Teague cue that has a ton of Ivory in it. In all honesty the best playing cue I have ever shot with is my Predator p2 Black leather wrap with a OB-1 Shaft on it. There is more feel and acuraccy in this cue than any other I have used.
This all comes back to the purpose behind the cue and what it's main use is for. Strickly performance you are not going to have to spend a ton of money, but if you want a feel good cue emotionally to add to the placebo effect get a custom cue. Not only will it play great but it should make you smile everytime you examine it.
The key thing I beleive in that you get with a custom cue is the ability to order to your exact specifications.
I simply lucked out and got a cue that met all of my specifications and it happened to be a production cue with a nice shaft.
 
vicdotcom said:
I dont ususally call people out personally on posts but I have to say that this statement is just untrue. I dont know if you just didnt research the information or are you just passing on something you heard in passing? Here are the websites from both companies describing their building proceses.

http://www.blackboarcustomcues.com/guarantee/default.asp?CTID=110&IID=

I truly doubt that Joss uses the same process. They may be similar in the fact they both have a shaft, tip, ferrule etc. But the contruction have a lot of differences. Mabye the Joss custom cues are closer to the same contruction methods but not the production cues.

Here is a video on Mcdermott contruction process and see if you notice the differences in custom contruction and production.

http://www.mcdermottcue.com/McDermottFactoryTour.mpg (great video on cue production but warning its 20 megs)

Here is a video on a predator cue being made. It has a lot of detail on the production cue construction. It was aired on "how its made" show on the discovery channel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adUbpn7WZYA

Joss cues does not show their production process. But after owning my Joss cues I can see that there are production differences from Black Boar just from sight.

Again sorry about the callout on that, but its just false.
Vic
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All of Dan's cues are cored. Single piece of straight maple running down the core of the cue. As far as splicing points, etc, that's purely cosmetic. The fundamental design of a Black Boar is that all figured woods are cored for stability. Dan does the exact same thing at Joss. The straight maple that the joint screw is installed into is the same maple core that the butt plug goes into. No metal connecting screws between forearm and handle. If you doubt this, talk to Dan Janes at Joss Cues. This information came directly from the horse's mouth.
 
vicdotcom said:
I dont ususally call people out personally on posts but I have to say that this statement is just untrue. I dont know if you just didnt research the information or are you just passing on something you heard in passing? Here are the websites from both companies describing their building proceses.

http://www.blackboarcustomcues.com/guarantee/default.asp?CTID=110&IID=

I truly doubt that Joss uses the same process. They may be similar in the fact they both have a shaft, tip, ferrule etc. But the contruction have a lot of differences. Mabye the Joss custom cues are closer to the same contruction methods but not the production cues.

Here is a video on Mcdermott contruction process and see if you notice the differences in custom contruction and production.

http://www.mcdermottcue.com/McDermottFactoryTour.mpg (great video on cue production but warning its 20 megs)

Here is a video on a predator cue being made. It has a lot of detail on the production cue construction. It was aired on "how its made" show on the discovery channel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adUbpn7WZYA

Joss cues does not show their production process. But after owning my Joss cues I can see that there are production differences from Black Boar just from sight.

Again sorry about the callout on that, but its just false.
Vic
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Oh, and sorry to call YOU out, but that's actually a Falcon cue being made. That was a pre-C4 Predator, that was made by Falcon up here in Mississauga. The construction of the Predators has changed radically since then. No more forearm to handle screws.

Depending on when your Joss was made, your cue may or may not be cored. For the last couple of years, Dan has cored all his figured cues. If it has a maple forearm that is figured, the cue is cored with straight grain maple. If you'd like pictures of both my cues (one with a curly maple forearm, one with a wenge forearm), you'll see maple down the middle. On the curly forearm, you can clearly see the grain lines run in a different direction than on the outside of the forearm.
 
"Would you rather know what you are getting? Or spend a lot of money on something that you don't know how it plays?"
The root question itself is flawed. Even production cues have a fair amount of variance.

On to the bigger question, it's all about the hit. Could be a McD, could be a Szam, it's all in how it feels to you. It's just that simple as far as player cues go. Colletor and investment pieces is a whole other story.

I grew up on production cues, but by the early/mid 90's I got the 'custom bug' and have not been able to shake it since. HOWEVER, I still own a Meucci from a dozen years ago. It plays great! Especially since I cut it in half and now use it for a jump handle... ;)
 
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Shawn Armstrong said:
Oh, and sorry to call YOU out, but that's actually a Falcon cue being made. That was a pre-C4 Predator, that was made by Falcon up here in Mississauga. The construction of the Predators has changed radically since then. No more forearm to handle screws.

Depending on when your Joss was made, your cue may or may not be cored. For the last couple of years, Dan has cored all his figured cues. If it has a maple forearm that is figured, the cue is cored with straight grain maple. If you'd like pictures of both my cues (one with a curly maple forearm, one with a wenge forearm), you'll see maple down the middle. On the curly forearm, you can clearly see the grain lines run in a different direction than on the outside of the forearm.
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Hey its not a problem to have a discussion about it. I really dont mind at all. I know I am not right 100% of the time either and can always learn things.

In that show on discovery they showed a falcon in the begining of the show. But it was a pred made by falcon cues that was being joined together on the show.

But as for maple dowels being used for corewood in both Joss and blackboar that may be true. In fact I know my coco Joss was cored because I cantacted the company to ask about it. But just because both cues use corewood doenst mean that other areas of construction are the same. Are the A joints the same? Are the tennons threaded? I know that the ferrules arent the same materials. These are just little differences that will impact the construction and feel of a cue. It may be subtle small changes but it all counts. Just because some cuemakers core their woods doesnt mean that they are constructed the same. As far as the splicing goes, some people say they can tell the difference and others cant. Personally I cant tell but to call splices cosmetic I think is incorrect because it does change the internal structure of the cue.

Are those little changes with the thousands more that you pay? Maybe to some but maybe not to others. But calling them the same I dont think is fair to either.

Vic
 
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not everyone is against production cues,i think schon makes a great cue,evan clark is a great cue maker and so was runde,i can't see any difference in schon then and now,but some of the new designs are really advanced now
it is my understanding that schon sells more cues over $2000 than any cuemaker in the world,so there are a lot of people who must love them.i know i do
dean
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
News flash - people buy Bushkas, Szams and the others as investment cues, not as playing cues, for the most part. People have this belief that custom is better. "Custom" needs to be defined. If you're buying a Mottey off the second hand market, IT'S NOT CUSTOM. The cue wasn't made for you specifically. It would be like you buying a tailored Armani suit that was the wrong size. It's an Armani, but not a tailored Armani.

Custom cuemakers do not have a magical forest that produces magical cue or shaft wood. They buy from dealers, same as the production guys, like Schon or Joss. The difference is Dan Janes probably buys 100x the amount of wood as Dennis Searing. Now, Danny's been picking out good shafts for almost 40 years now, so he might know a thing or two about wood. To make the blanket statement that high end customs hit better than production is bull$hit. BULL$HIT. Evan Clarke and Dan Janes make a cue every bit as good as Tascarella or Hercek or Searing. If you believe that you play better with a Searing than a Joss, that's in your head. It has nothing to do with the cue. A lot of people "feel" better with a high end cue because it makes them feel better about themselves. I went through the custom cue phase. Most people think the cue makes the player. It's the other way around.

BTW, the new Joss cues are made with the same technique as Tony at Black Boar, so they may hit OK.
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If I buy a brand new cue from a dealer.....lets say a Bluegrass from Indyq or a Sugartree from new2youqs........are you telling me I'm not getting a custom cue?
 
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deanoc said:
not everyone is against production cues,i think schon makes a great cue,evan clark is a great cue maker and so was runde,i can't see any difference in schon then and now,but some of the new designs are really advanced now
it is my understanding that schon sells more cues over $2000 than any cuemaker in the world,so there are a lot of people who must love them.i know i do
dean
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With the Schon cues I've owned, I have noticed that...for me...the older ones seem to have more of the hit I enjoy. That's not to say that the older ones are better than the new...but the older ones I've owned just felt better, hit-wise, to me.

I'm reacquiring a late '80s - early '90s Schon STL4 that plays absolutely phenomenal. Easily has a better hit (again...for ME) than half of the custom cues I've ever owned.

Like many on here, I caught the custom cue bug a few years back...and it's been VERY difficult to stray away from them. Let's face it...they're fun!!

BUT...

Give me an old Schon any day, and I'm sure I'll be thrilled with it.
 
rellek said:
I personally have nothing against playing with production cues, lord knows I did it for a while. I actually went the custom route because I could get much better cues than the production models that I was looking at, aesthetically, performance-wise, and most importantly price-wise. I still have a Joss that I use from time to time that I really like.
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I own a nice Paul Mottey cue that I like a lot, but I also have a Schon Stl-21 (wrapless model) that I play with sometimes also. Of course the Mottey cue is much nicer in looks and detail, but the Schon isn't bad for the price and I really like it with a predator shaft.

James
 
snowmon34 said:
If I buy a brand new cue from a dealer.....lets say a Bluegrass from Indyq or a Sugartree from new2youqs........are you telling me I'm not getting a custom cue?
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Precisely. You are getting a Bluegrass or a Sugartree. The same as you could buy a Joss or a Players cue. The cue was never made with you in mind, therefore what is "custom" about it? Custom implies tailored for a certain individual. However, "custom" in the cuemaking world has come to mean "better", which is wrong. I have a Joss Custom cue. It was designed by me, made for me. It's not the same as a line cue from Joss. Same as a Southwest. If you bought the cue before it was made, and had input into the specs for the cue, that's a custom cue. If you buy the same cue off the rack, it's a Southwest. There's no "custom" element to the cue at all.
 
vicdotcom said:
Hey its not a problem to have a discussion about it. I really dont mind at all. I know I am not right 100% of the time either and can always learn things.

In that show on discovery they showed a falcon in the begining of the show. But it was a pred made by falcon cues that was being joined together on the show.

But as for maple dowels being used for corewood in both Joss and blackboar that may be true. In fact I know my coco Joss was cored because I cantacted the company to ask about it. But just because both cues use corewood doenst mean that other areas of construction are the same. Are the A joints the same? Are the tennons threaded? I know that the ferrules arent the same materials. These are just little differences that will impact the construction and feel of a cue. It may be subtle small changes but it all counts. Just because some cuemakers core their woods doesnt mean that they are constructed the same. As far as the splicing goes, some people say they can tell the difference and others cant. Personally I cant tell but to call splices cosmetic I think is incorrect because it does change the internal structure of the cue.

Are those little changes with the thousands more that you pay? Maybe to some but maybe not to others. But calling them the same I dont think is fair to either.

Vic
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Great response. When it comes to cue construction, I only talk about the butt end of the cue, as that's really the only part that is "put together". The point I was making was that Black Boar was probably the first cuemaker I know of to core woods for stability and to improve the hit. Balabushka used to use straight grained maple for his forearms because the hit was better than the figured maples. Tony at Black Boar followed this thinking, and cores his birdseye maple and curly maple with straight grained maple cored to improve the performance of the cue. As far as I know, I don't thing BB cues have an A joint. The same maple that goes into the forearm extends under the wrap. Joss Cues uses a one piece core in their cues from joint to butt cap. No A joints either. There are a bunch of cuemakers that have adopted this philosophy, to make the butts of their cues stay straighter and perform better. The point of the comment was to let people know that companies such as Joss and Schon don't merely stick wood into the Binford Cuemaker 2000, and out pops a cue in 20 minutes or less. They still take the time to do things properly. Coring an entire cue takes time, effort, and money. Obviously, if they were only concerned with making money, they'd skip these steps. They care about the longevity and structural integrity of their cues, the exact same way the one man shops do.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Precisely. You are getting a Bluegrass or a Sugartree. The same as you could buy a Joss or a Players cue. The cue was never made with you in mind, therefore what is "custom" about it? Custom implies tailored for a certain individual. However, "custom" in the cuemaking world has come to mean "better", which is wrong. I have a Joss Custom cue. It was designed by me, made for me. It's not the same as a line cue from Joss. Same as a Southwest. If you bought the cue before it was made, and had input into the specs for the cue, that's a custom cue. If you buy the same cue off the rack, it's a Southwest. There's no "custom" element to the cue at all.
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In most cases (not all) when a dealer orders cues from a cuebuilder he is putting in his .02 on the order..The dealer is requesting weights, shaft sizes, woods etc etc...he is custom ordering a cue imo...when the dealer sells those same cue's on the secondary market, those custom ordered cues don't lose its "CUSTOM CUE" status.....sure the cue wasn't ordered by the new owner, but it's still a custom cue....jmo
 
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snowmon34 said:
In most cases (not all) when a dealer orders cues from a cuebuilder he is putting in his .02 on the order..The dealer is requesting weights, shaft sizes, woods etc etc...he is custom ordering a cue imo...when the dealer sells those same cue's on the secondary market, those custom ordered cues don't lose its "CUSTOM CUE" status.....sure the cue wasn't ordered by the new owner, but it's still a custom cue....jmo
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custom: Adj
1)Made to order.
2)Specializing in the making or selling of made-to-order goods: a custom tailor.

If the cue was made for me, the cue dealer, and you happen to buy that cue, what input did you have in the commissioning of that cue? None. Therefore, you purchased a cue. There's nothing about it that is "custom" or "customed" to you. It would be like buying the tailored pants off the owner's legs, and saying you bought tailored pants. Yep, they're tailored pants - just not for you. You haven't had the EXACT cue made that you wanted. The cue caught your eye, and you bought it due to reputation of the cuemaker and you appreciated the look of the cue. This is NO DIFFERENT than buying a Schon, Joss, or Mezz off the rack. Can we start calling EVERYONE a custom cuemaker? According to you, EVERYONE is one. Therefore, there's no more need to call them "custom". They're cues.
 
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Shawn Armstrong said:
custom: Adj
1)Made to order.
2)Specializing in the making or selling of made-to-order goods: a custom tailor.

If the cue was made for me, the cue dealer, and you happen to buy that cue, what input did you have in the commissioning of that cue? None. Therefore, you purchased a cue. There's nothing about it that is "custom" or "customed" to you. It would be like buying the tailored pants off the owner's legs, and saying you bought tailored pants. Yep, they're tailored pants - just not for you. You haven't had the EXACT cue made that you wanted. The cue caught your eye, and you bought it due to reputation of the cuemaker and you appreciated the look of the cue. This is NO DIFFERENT that buying a Schon, Joss, or Mezz off the rack. Can we start calling EVERYONE a custom cuemaker? According to you, EVERYONE is one. Therefore, there's no more need to call them "custom". They're cues.
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Thank you for defining custom for us all ( or maybe specifically for me ).

Ok if a dealer orders a cue from a cuebuilder to his specs....are we in agreeance that the cue is a custom cue?? I think yes...

Now if I buy the cue from the dealer the cue loses it's custom status...you say yes ....I say no....no problem...its just our opinions....

Now if I decide to trade the cue back to the original selling dealer......does this cue regain it's custom status? Im confused...:confused: please help...
 
snowmon34 said:
Thank you for defining custom for us all ( or maybe specifically for me ).

Ok if a dealer orders a cue from a cuebuilder to his specs....are we in agreeance that the cue is a custom cue?? I think yes...

Now if I buy the cue from the dealer the cue loses it's custom status...you say yes ....I say no....no problem...its just our opinions....

Now if I decide to trade the cue back to the original selling dealer......does this cue regain it's custom status? Im confused...:confused: please help...
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OK. Answer this. Is my Schon STL-4 a custom cue? I bought it from a custom cue dealer. He called Evan Clarke and asked for an STL-4, 19.5oz.

By your definition, or explanation, that is no different than how you bought your cue. I guess I could call the same guy and get a CUSTOM Players cue too.
 
Answer me this, if you can.....

snowmon34 said:
Thank you for defining custom for us all ( or maybe specifically for me ).

Ok if a dealer orders a cue from a cuebuilder to his specs....are we in agreeance that the cue is a custom cue?? I think yes...

Now if I buy the cue from the dealer the cue loses it's custom status...you say yes ....I say no....no problem...its just our opinions....

Now if I decide to trade the cue back to the original selling dealer......does this cue regain it's custom status? Im confused...:confused: please help...
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What makes a "custom cue" CUSTOM?
 
Ok I guess my cues are capable of change...They can go from a custom cue ( from the original person that ordered it to his or her specs..)....to a regular cue ( now that i own it )...I'm not sure if the cue becomes custom again if I trade it back to the original person that ordered it ( hopefully Shawn will chime in and set me straight on this )..

Now that we are in agreeance that a custom cue can change into just a cue ( I think )....I wonder if my caterpillar cue can change into a butterfly cue?.:D J/K Shawn you don't have to answer the last question..
 
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