Everyone is against production-made cues?

There are a couple of issues here, overall I feel that production cues were better quality in the 80's than most are now. (there are some exceptions)

Secondly there are a lot more custom cue makers now and a basic player or even a cue with points and a basic inlay costs about what a mid to high end production cue cost so more and more people are going that route.

I am like you, I've had the same Janes Joss since 1986, (complete with rounded points... ha, ha JCIN !) and I love it.
 
They Played With Production Cues Because They Were Paid To Play With Production Cues. Had Nothing To Do With Them Being Better Cues, They Were Getting Paid.

You Don't Really Think Allison Fisher Uses A Cuetec Because It's The Best, Do You?????

P.s. I Hope You Don't Even Think Her Cuetec Has A Cuetec Shaft On It
 
JCIN said:
There is a famous quote in shooting circles:

"Only accurate rifles are interesting" ~ Colonel Townsend Wheelen

I guess for many here it would be:

"Only custom/rare/old cues are interesting"

I happen to agree. Plastic inlays and round points just don't blow my hair back. They all will make balls but there is something about a nice custom that just makes you feel good. :D To me most of the McDermott D line and the old Schons have as much or more appeal than many of the custom cues being made today. But production was a little different back then I think.

That is not to say all custom cues are good because they are custom. There is a lot of bad wood out there. Play with what you like and enjoy it. Everything else is noise.
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I think the Quote is the same
"Only accurate cues are interesting"
Do you think Balabuska,Szamboti,Tascarella,Searing,Sruggs,South West etc.got there reputation because they make pretty cues? They flat out play better and more consistant than production cues, especially better than most of the newer production cues. If you want the best of the best shaftwood, the best constucted cue(not the fastest) and one that puts it all together to make the best playing cue posible, by someone that actually knows how a cue is suppose to play...Are you going to buy a top tier custom or a production cue? There are also alot of customs that I am not that fond of, but the top tier customs are all better than any production cue in terms of hit,playability,consistantcy(sp?),etc. BTW, a Schon is made a little different today compared to the early Schons.
sorry for rambling-jeff
 
I had a Schon STL-7 that I wish would have never sold, I know I could buy a new one but it probably wouldn't play the same as long schon silver
 
bigskyjake said:
I had a Schon STL-7 that I wish would have never sold, I know I could buy a new one but it probably wouldn't play the same as long schon silver
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Me too, great cue.
 
gmcole said:
Do you think Balabushka,Szamboti,Tascarella,Searing,Scruggs,South West etc.got there reputation because they make pretty cues? They flat out play better and more consistant than production cues, especially better than most of the newer production cues. If you want the best of the best shaftwood, the best constucted cue(not the fastest) and one that puts it all together to make the best playing cue posible, by someone that actually knows how a cue is suppose to play...Are you going to buy a top tier custom or a production cue? There are also alot of customs that I am not that fond of, but the top tier customs are all better than any production cue in terms of hit,playability,consistantcy(sp?),etc. BTW, a Schon is made a little different today compared to the early Schons.
sorry for rambling-jeff
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News flash - people buy Bushkas, Szams and the others as investment cues, not as playing cues, for the most part. People have this belief that custom is better. "Custom" needs to be defined. If you're buying a Mottey off the second hand market, IT'S NOT CUSTOM. The cue wasn't made for you specifically. It would be like you buying a tailored Armani suit that was the wrong size. It's an Armani, but not a tailored Armani.

Custom cuemakers do not have a magical forest that produces magical cue or shaft wood. They buy from dealers, same as the production guys, like Schon or Joss. The difference is Dan Janes probably buys 100x the amount of wood as Dennis Searing. Now, Danny's been picking out good shafts for almost 40 years now, so he might know a thing or two about wood. To make the blanket statement that high end customs hit better than production is bull$hit. BULL$HIT. Evan Clarke and Dan Janes make a cue every bit as good as Tascarella or Hercek or Searing. If you believe that you play better with a Searing than a Joss, that's in your head. It has nothing to do with the cue. A lot of people "feel" better with a high end cue because it makes them feel better about themselves. I went through the custom cue phase. Most people think the cue makes the player. It's the other way around.

BTW, the new Joss cues are made with the same technique as Tony at Black Boar, so they may hit OK.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
BTW, the new Joss cues are made with the same technique as Tony at Black Boar, so they may hit OK.
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Seriously? I love Joss cues but never heard this. Quite a savings too ;)
 
trustyrusty said:
Funny how that happens from time to time....I have a buddy who has a Mexican made strat (Fender) that is the best playing guitar I've ever tried (including CUSTOM SHOP ones that cost 10X what his did). I know the guitar reference won't fit with most of the readers, but I'm sure there are production cues out there that would knock your socks off if only you could find "the one". BTW, one day I will break into his house and steal it since I know he'll never give that sucker up LOL J/K of course, or am I???!!! :p
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TrustyRusty...hmmm...maybe not so trusty :p I think it's a great analogy. I've got a 66 Strat from the custom shop, and after playing literally 30 or 40 Strats this one is indeed the best of the bunch. However, that being said I'm sure that there are production cues out there that play as good as some custom cues. It all depends on what you're comfortable with. While I don't think you'll ever win the Indy 500 driving a rusted out 69 VW, you might feel more comfortable driving it. But as far as custom cues, and this is totally dependent upon the cue maker...they will definately hold their value better. So if you're someone like myself who enjoys playing with quality cues but changes cues like most people change their toothbrushes you can always get your money back if it is a good cue maker. Just my thoughts...
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
News flash - people buy Bushkas, Szams and the others as investment cues, not as playing cues, for the most part. People have this belief that custom is better. "Custom" needs to be defined. If you're buying a Mottey off the second hand market, IT'S NOT CUSTOM. The cue wasn't made for you specifically. It would be like you buying a tailored Armani suit that was the wrong size. It's an Armani, but not a tailored Armani.

Custom cuemakers do not have a magical forest that produces magical cue or shaft wood. They buy from dealers, same as the production guys, like Schon or Joss. The difference is Dan Janes probably buys 100x the amount of wood as Dennis Searing. Now, Danny's been picking out good shafts for almost 40 years now, so he might know a thing or two about wood. To make the blanket statement that high end customs hit better than production is bull$hit. BULL$HIT. Evan Clarke and Dan Janes make a cue every bit as good as Tascarella or Hercek or Searing. If you believe that you play better with a Searing than a Joss, that's in your head. It has nothing to do with the cue. A lot of people "feel" better with a high end cue because it makes them feel better about themselves. I went through the custom cue phase. Most people think the cue makes the player. It's the other way around.

BTW, the new Joss cues are made with the same technique as Tony at Black Boar, so they may hit OK.
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I said that Buska,Szam,Tasc etc got ther reputation for making great playing cues, I never said they were bad investments. I also said "top tier" custom makers, I even said that I am not fond of alot of custom makers. There is alot of good playing production cues IMHO,Schon,Joss,Mcd etc. I'll I am saying is...If you want the BEST playing cue, I believe it is a top tier custom. Dan janes (or his company)does buy alot more wood than say Eric Crisp of sugartree, So..Does that mean a Joss has better shaft wood than Eric, come on. I'll bet if Dan had to make a living ,playing with one of his own cues, he would be more selective on the shaftwood he uses, he might even wait a little longer between turns on those shafts, he would make his cue a specific lenth with a very specific balance point, he would tweek it a little bit to suit him before he put the final finish and wrap on...Just like a top tier custom maker would do. BTW if Dan HIMSELF did this for me , plus a couple other things, I'll bet it would be a monster player. It would,IMHO, certainly be a better player ,for me,than some of the Joss cues Iv'e had.
 
our_auctionguy said:
A couple years ago, I saw two inlaid eye catchers in a pawn shop when I was out looking for a cheap backup lcd monitor. I walked over and there was the word Schon on one and nothing printed on the other, but I could tell it was extremely well made, but not quite sure by whom. The prices caused me to get lock fist once I got my hands on them. Total price for the two was $55.
As soon as I got back to the pool room, I hit some balls with the Schon and with the help of a friend, found it a new deserving home for $400. Then I started looking the unmarked one over real close and saw ""Custom Shop Nov 1981" inscribed on the butt bottom. It was a personally built Huebler cue and it eventually was sold to a Huebler collector for about $600. I spoke with Paul and one of his employees over the phone and was told that Paul would go out hunting the shaft wood bins for the perfect piece of wood to make the shafts for his customs. Some times he would take the better part of a day to find the right wood. Apparently he spent a month looking for the wood for this cue. The shaft and butt were so absolutely laser straight that the term "roll-out" did not come anywhere to mind. The absolute straightest cue I have ever had my hands on. The cue played as good as it looked. For years I snikered at Hueblers. Not anymore.
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I don't know you, but I hate you now for sharing that story.

The biggest catch I made was my Joss Limited I picked for for $200 because the Boston Billiard people are clueless about pool, but that was about 70% off retail, not over 90% like yours.
 
gmcole said:
I'll bet if Dan had to make a living ,playing with one of his own cues, he would be more selective on the shaftwood he uses, he might even wait a little longer between turns on those shafts, he would make his cue a specific lenth with a very specific balance point, he would tweek it a little bit to suit him before he put the final finish and wrap on...Just like a top tier custom maker would do. BTW if Dan HIMSELF did this for me , plus a couple other things, I'll bet it would be a monster player. It would,IMHO, certainly be a better player ,for me,than some of the Joss cues Iv'e had.
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Excellent reply. If you deal with Joss directly when purchasing your cue, you get this type of service, the same as when you deal with a "custom" maker. Dan personally picked out my shafts based on my criteria I gave him. He matched them for weight, clarity, stiffness and grain. When you buy a cue off the shelf, that's what you get. When you deal with a manufacturer directly, such as Schon or Joss, you get this kind of service. One time, I wasn't happy with the shaft I got on a Schon. I sent it back to Evan and asked for a different shaft. He emailed me the day he got the shaft and asked for my phone number. We talked for about 20 minutes, and he asked what weight, diameter, etc I wanted, and how stiff I liked my shafts. He even asked if I wanted pretty wood, or cared if it was a darker shaft. The shaft he sent back with the cue was the NUTS. You get this type of service when you deal with the shop. That's no better than Searing or Southwest could do.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Excellent reply. If you deal with Joss directly when purchasing your cue, you get this type of service, the same as when you deal with a "custom" maker. Dan personally picked out my shafts based on my criteria I gave him. He matched them for weight, clarity, stiffness and grain. When you buy a cue off the shelf, that's what you get. When you deal with a manufacturer directly, such as Schon or Joss, you get this kind of service. One time, I wasn't happy with the shaft I got on a Schon. I sent it back to Evan and asked for a different shaft. He emailed me the day he got the shaft and asked for my phone number. We talked for about 20 minutes, and he asked what weight, diameter, etc I wanted, and how stiff I liked my shafts. He even asked if I wanted pretty wood, or cared if it was a darker shaft. The shaft he sent back with the cue was the NUTS. You get this type of service when you deal with the shop. That's no better than Searing or Southwest could do.
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I've always been impressed with Evan's customer service - he is a credit to the cue industry.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Excellent reply. If you deal with Joss directly when purchasing your cue, you get this type of service, the same as when you deal with a "custom" maker. Dan personally picked out my shafts based on my criteria I gave him. He matched them for weight, clarity, stiffness and grain. When you buy a cue off the shelf, that's what you get. When you deal with a manufacturer directly, such as Schon or Joss, you get this kind of service. One time, I wasn't happy with the shaft I got on a Schon. I sent it back to Evan and asked for a different shaft. He emailed me the day he got the shaft and asked for my phone number. We talked for about 20 minutes, and he asked what weight, diameter, etc I wanted, and how stiff I liked my shafts. He even asked if I wanted pretty wood, or cared if it was a darker shaft. The shaft he sent back with the cue was the NUTS. You get this type of service when you deal with the shop. That's no better than Searing or Southwest could do.
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I agree with you. I think the tougher question may be...Who can make a custom cue vs. who has "ready made "only cues. I have always considered Schon, for example, as a semi-custom maker. I think the line gets very cloudy nowdays between custom and production.
 
bigshooter said:
(complete with rounded points... ha, ha JCIN !) and I love it.
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More power to you. Just cause they look like doo doo dont mean they dont play good. :D

<----once got beat by a guy with a cue that was an exact replica of a No.2 Pencil. Had the eraser and hexagonal butt and everything.
True story.

Indian not the arrow.
 
I just wanted to add something to this discussion, as I am hoping that people don't paint me with the "anti-custom" brush. There are many cuemakers whose names are very well known in the industry. I have immense respect for all these gentlemen. They do make a cue that is worth the money and worth the wait. Excellent craftsmanship, however, isn't exclusive to the one man shop. Like I said in one of my earlier posts, quality doesn't have a nationality. It's also not lost if you grow as a company, or get more employees. Quality is quality. Pay as much as you need to in order to get the quality you need. Your money is never wasted buying a cue from a man with a 7+ year waiting list - he got that wait list for a reason. Just don't discredit Schon or Joss or the other "production" houses because they aren't what you call custom. They put quality work into their cues as well.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
News flash - people buy Bushkas, Szams and the others as investment cues, not as playing cues, for the most part. People have this belief that custom is better. "Custom" needs to be defined. If you're buying a Mottey off the second hand market, IT'S NOT CUSTOM. The cue wasn't made for you specifically. It would be like you buying a tailored Armani suit that was the wrong size. It's an Armani, but not a tailored Armani.

Custom cuemakers do not have a magical forest that produces magical cue or shaft wood. They buy from dealers, same as the production guys, like Schon or Joss. The difference is Dan Janes probably buys 100x the amount of wood as Dennis Searing. Now, Danny's been picking out good shafts for almost 40 years now, so he might know a thing or two about wood. To make the blanket statement that high end customs hit better than production is bull$hit. BULL$HIT. Evan Clarke and Dan Janes make a cue every bit as good as Tascarella or Hercek or Searing. If you believe that you play better with a Searing than a Joss, that's in your head. It has nothing to do with the cue. A lot of people "feel" better with a high end cue because it makes them feel better about themselves. I went through the custom cue phase. Most people think the cue makes the player. It's the other way around.

BTW, the new Joss cues are made with the same technique as Tony at Black Boar, so they may hit OK.
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Man! Shawn, you took the words right out of my mouth (keyboard)! I agree with you 100%. Good post.

JED
 
Fast Davie NC said:
Would you rather know what you are getting? Or spend a lot of money on something that you don't know how it plays? ...I would rather play the game with something comftorable and gamble on the rest!!!
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I have to point out that in my experience, there is a LOT of variation in the way productions cues play, even from the same company. I have played with many vikings that did not feel the same from one viking to another. The same goes for the Joss cues I have played with and owned. So I dont think you know 100% of how a cue plays just because of the name. There is still some "gambling" going on because stores hardly ever let you chalk up a cue before buying. You can also hear the same from the Meucci owners who have a great Meucci that they love playing with. I bet another Meucci wouldnt feel the same or as good.

What I have seen in production uses is that since they are "production" they tend to fall in line with all other production companies and start to cut costs to maintain profits. Good maple is getting harder to find in quantities that satisfy production companies. So lesser grades are used in order to keep costs down. You dont know how many Joss shafts I looked at before finding one that suited my needs. I think I sorted through 200 pieces of firewood before finding a nice shaft that satisfied me. And it did change the way the cue plays drastically. Ferrules and cheaper glues are used to cut costs and eventually it all comes down to the bottom line.

So I dont think the argument about consistency is fully accurate. I think you get more consistency from a custom maker. Of course you have to try out more of them to see what consistency you like!

Great custom makers might be able to make a good profit from building but many more do it just because they like to do it and want to be good at it. I would rather purchase a cue someone tried to make great than a production cue that a company is trying to make a profit on.

Just my thoughts on it.
Vic

PS just ask someone with a great playing Meucci if they would like to sell it and see how many of them say yes. If consistency among production cues is the same then would be very easy to find a replacement. But that is not the case.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
BTW, the new Joss cues are made with the same technique as Tony at Black Boar, so they may hit OK.
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I dont ususally call people out personally on posts but I have to say that this statement is just untrue. I dont know if you just didnt research the information or are you just passing on something you heard in passing? Here are the websites from both companies describing their building proceses.

http://www.blackboarcustomcues.com/guarantee/default.asp?CTID=110&IID=

I truly doubt that Joss uses the same process. They may be similar in the fact they both have a shaft, tip, ferrule etc. But the contruction have a lot of differences. Mabye the Joss custom cues are closer to the same contruction methods but not the production cues.

Here is a video on Mcdermott contruction process and see if you notice the differences in custom contruction and production.

http://www.mcdermottcue.com/McDermottFactoryTour.mpg (great video on cue production but warning its 20 megs)

Here is a video on a predator cue being made. It has a lot of detail on the production cue construction. It was aired on "how its made" show on the discovery channel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adUbpn7WZYA

Joss cues does not show their production process. But after owning my Joss cues I can see that there are production differences from Black Boar just from sight.

Again sorry about the callout on that, but its just false.
Vic
 
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i read some where paul huebler took vacation every year and went overseas buying wood to make his cues towards the end of his career he was more production the last sp i got acouple of months ago hit very nice and i know alot of players that use his break cues with the special joint
 
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