Examaning shaft straightness and theory

TheThaiger said:
I have a LD shaft I want to sell for around 100 bucks. Neither the joint nor the tip leaves the bed at all, but rolling it on the table I can see light changes pretty much down the whole of the shaft.

So what do I advertise it as - warped, taper roll - slight or major?, or straight?
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I think if you see light under the shaft is normal but if the light really changes as your rolling it and isn't consistent and is wavering up and down I would say its got a warp.The more consistent the light when rolled the straighter it is.Goodluck:smile:
 
I know it all semantics but I think there is a difference between playable straight and warped. Yes, both are warped but it comes down to degree of acceptability.

I've made none and if I did it would be straight,
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Making a straight shaft is easy. Keeping it straight is the challenge. No one can make that guarantee. Companies/makers offer guarantees but it isn't saying the shaft won't warp, just that it will be taken care of if it does.
 
ratcues said:
I know it all semantics but I think there is a difference between playable straight and warped. Yes, both are warped but it comes down to degree of acceptability.



Making a straight shaft is easy. Keeping it straight is the challenge. No one can make that guarantee. Companies/makers offer guarantees but it isn't saying the shaft won't warp, just that it will be taken care of if it does.
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I know for sure you make a straight shaft,my buddy in Toronto has one of your cues and its stayed straight as an arrow.Maybe luck or maybe you know the secret;)I agree with you on most parts of this topic and to be honest I never heard of the term taper roll till I got on AZ.I always referred to it as a warp but again to what degree.I personally will scope it like a gun,if it looks straight to my eye I know it won't effect my playability and aim.Takecare
 
Cue maker do everything they can to minimize movement but, sometimes, wood moves. I do not want to make it sound like EVERY shaft will move. I guess I want people to understand that it is possible not matter how good a maker's methods are.
 
Great post Ryan. I guess until you have done it, you really have no hope of understanding just how 'challenging' it can be to get a 'perfect' shaft. I have learned long ago to NEVER roll a cue- if you see a flaw, your mind will gravitate to that and that is where the blame will lie. Only check a shaft when you do not intend to play. Of course, if you are buying (or building) this is far more important.

On a related note: I toyed with the idea of a collector's cue rack- where the shafts are threaded into joint pins and hung with no other contact as we do aging shafts. Never got to that, and thankfully, have not seen an unreasonable amount of movement in the few shafts I have made.

If you want your shaft to remain perfect after playing as well as (in my case anyway) breaking with it, go for a plastic shaft. Maybe phenolic.

"Pay no attention to the horrible feel, balance and sound. It's straight.";)


And then- there's the accuracy of the joint.

I picked up a cue from a maker who put his initials on the cue to use as a blank (Old Brunswick house cue originally) for someone here at work who won't stop hounding me for a cue- and to be fair, the butt is very well done on this donor for the most part. However, the shaft is not cool at all. The face of the joint (3/8-10 threads in the shaft wood) was not clean- that's being polite. It appeared to have been 'adjusted' with a pocket knife. So, being as anal as I am, I chucked it up in a collet and faced it off. Then things got interesting...:confused:

The face is perpendicular, and the pin is straight, but the thread bore is not straight. So, when you thread this thing in, it is like a kid on the 4th of July with a Taiwan-made plastic American flag. Absolutely unacceptable to put it mildly. To the tune up several inches of rise at the joint if you were to attempt to roll this on a table.:eek:

I'll be buying new pre-made shaft for it (no time to make a shaft with selling a house, buying another, new job etc.) but the butt will be cool. The shaft is OK looking, so I may bore and plug it and install a threaded insert for some other cue in the future.
 
One thing to remember is if everything is concentric if you held the cue dead straight and stood dead in front of it, you would like to see a small cirlcle dead center of a big circle. That would indicate a concentric cue.

What is the acceptable tolerance that the small circle (tip) could be out? What would it mean if it was .005, .016. .050 out of center?

All the cue stroke guru's and teachers praise and teach how consistent your stance, follow through, etc.. muct be. I agree with all this. But what if you had a perfect stance, perfect stroke, would the cue being out really affect your play?

JV
 
straight shafts / cues

KJ Cues said:
The quest for perfection is a noble cause.
As cue-makers, we strive for it everyday even though we know that it does not exist.
Shafts are no exception. We try to make them perfect.
The reality is that we know we're working with an organic mtrl that can move at will.
Wood moves and it does so whenever it feels like it.
Got rain in your future? Guaranteed, your shaft will move.
Going from Wisconsin to Texas? Guaranteed, your shaft will move.

Here's the thing that I find so ironic.
Players and cue buyers in general, want (dare I say demand) shafts that are perfectly
straight and are guaranteed to stay straight forever (I see Ryan has already stated this)
yet their stroke can easily be off by an 1/8" to 1/4". In their mind, the only reason
they're not on the Pro-Tour is because their shaft has a 'taper-roll'.
It's easy to blame the equipment because it certainly can't be the player.
Their stroke is perfect, their game is perfect so it clearly can't be their fault.
It must be the equipment, specifically their shaft that has .015/.030" roll-out.
In this scenario, it's the arrow not the Indian.

The fact is, we build cues/shafts as perfectly as the wood allows.
We take every precaution. We take exorbitant amounts of time btwn cuttings/turnings.
We season the wood, sometimes for many years and still the wood can move.
What's up???
A lot of it has to do with where the shaft was made vs where it is now.
All the good Maple is in the North; Wisc., Mich., Up State NY, Canada & etc.
That's where it was grown and that's where it likes it. That's generally where it's
seasoned also.
This region provides a comfortable environment for the wood. It feels like home.
The problems start when the wood is subjected to climates that are unfamiliar.
If the climate is drier, the wood will give-up more moisture. It's a continuation of
the seasoning process which means that the wood is subject to more movement.
That's unfortunate because the shaft is already built and cut to size.
When the cue/shaft is sent to a more humid climate, it can start to absorb moisture.
Again, the shaft is subject to move.

This give & take phenomena with moisture can last the entire life of the shaft
though it does tend to subside with age but there are no guarantees.
My advise would be to learn how to straighten your shaft.
If you do nothing, your shaft will move to where it wants to be, given it's environment.
It's your job to convince it to stay where you put it.

KJ
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KJ and JV are both right, the only thing is everyone doesn't make the same effort to keep them straight for now and for the future. Everyone doesn't take the same time to cut and cut in small increments, everyone doesn't dip in nelsonite or seal after each cut. Some people live in dry areas and sell in humid areas and vice versa. , everyone does not have the same quality control, both pre building(selecting wood) and in the end game. In short some people are better than others. I think it probably shows in their work. Either now or in five or ten years from now. {Just my opinion)
JerseyBill
 
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that what you might be seeing instead of warp/taper roll/whatever might be you rolling the cue on a table with busted slate seams.

Find either a good old bar table with one-piece slate,or use one end or the other on 8-9 footers.

I'm not 100% convinced that table slate is accurate enough once you add cloth,even Simonis.

That table Ryan showed,as well as the one showed on the McD factory tour vid,is probably a surface plate. Tommy D.
 
There is a difference between a taper roll and a warp. Easy way to think of it is like this. Roll a perfectly round cylinder on a flat surface. It stays flat on the table and never comes of anywhere. Now, take the same cylinder and sand a little off of one side. Roll it on the table and you will see a little light under it at that point. Is the cylinder still straight? Yes. Has the taper been changed to where it gives the appearance that it isnt straight? Yes. Just because there is a variance in the amount in light seen under a shaft doesnt mean it is warped. It means it was made by a human. Out of all the cues that I have owned, seen, shot with or sold, I have never seen a PERFECTLY round and flat rolling shaft. Some have been very close. But none have ever been perfect. The equivalent would be drawing a perfect circle freehand. Cant be done. No matter how close you get, it wont be PERFECT. Dont care who made it. There will be imperfections in any and all cues made by man.(Or woman) JMHO.
 
subdude1974 said:
There is a difference between a taper roll and a warp. Easy way to think of it is like this. Roll a perfectly round cylinder on a flat surface. It stays flat on the table and never comes of anywhere. Now, take the same cylinder and sand a little off of one side. Roll it on the table and you will see a little light under it at that point. Is the cylinder still straight? Yes. Has the taper been changed to where it gives the appearance that it isnt straight? Yes. Just because there is a variance in the amount in light seen under a shaft doesnt mean it is warped. It means it was made by a human. Out of all the cues that I have owned, seen, shot with or sold, I have never seen a PERFECTLY round and flat rolling shaft. Some have been very close. But none have ever been perfect. The equivalent would be drawing a perfect circle freehand. Cant be done. No matter how close you get, it wont be PERFECT. Dont care who made it. There will be imperfections in any and all cues made by man.(Or woman) JMHO.
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If its some how sanded away on one side enough to look warped, it might as well be warped, cause its toast all the same. I'm not sure it matters how a bow or "warp" is created, or if it's just on one side or another it only matters that it's there and to what degree.
 
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I think the sanding/milling more from one side is much worse than a small amount of warpage. That would affect the flex depending on how the shaft was turned.

On a similar note, I get requests to turn/mill a shaft to take a warp out. The above would be the result, egg shaped, if you were to take a cross section. If a shaft is warped enough that you can see it when rolled, it is too much to turn out. I can still make the diameter smaller by using a different technique but the warp will still be there.
 
hmm

i think a shaft has to be very warped before it affects anything. its mostly mental.
 
jayman said:
If its some how sanded away on one side enough to look warped, it might as well be warped, cause its toast all the same. I'm not sure it matters how a bow or "warp" is created, or if it's just on one side or another it only matters that it's there and to what degree.
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If the shaft is "bouncing" on the table then I would agree with you. But if there is just a variance in the amount of light seen under a shaft then send me ALL your "toasted" shafts. I will say this. If the mere fact that there is light variance seen under a shaft as it is rolled on a table means it is warped, then there isnt a straight shaft on the planet that was man made. JMHO.
 
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