Experience or science?

Which do you trust most?

  • Experience

    Votes: 134 72.0%
  • Science

    Votes: 52 28.0%

  • Total voters
    186
So anyone with the burning desire to learn can become an NFL lineman, or an NBA 4 spot, or win the Olympic 100m dash, or...? Pull my other leg. I played against NBA players. The overwhelming difference between me and them was not the desire, or lack of same, to learn or excel. It's not clear to me if there are similar physical characteristics that help pool players become world-class. Anyway, you just added another reason I wouldn't bet on the outcome of a single student - desire to learn and succeed varies greatly, and can determine the outcome. Cheers.

The research points that way. You are the one on the "science" side in this debate and I am pointing out what science has observed in many studies of talent vs. nurture. Certainly there is going to be certain physical limitations with any endeavor that are defaults by the nature of the endeavor. A 400lb person is not going to be a world champion rock climber and a 120lb person is not going to be an NFL linebacker. But the science says that IF a person is physically capable then it's training and desire that makes the talent and not something a person is "born with".



Selling books and videos? I wasn't making a personal comment, I was referring in general to the many millions of dollars that would need to be spent to mount programs similar to those in many other sports.

It depends on what you consider the scientific approach to building a pool player is? Naturally the physiology is quite different than what's needed in a world class runner. So the science of building a runner needs much more heavy work in understanding human dynamics in my view.



Maybe you are right. We have differing opinions.
Yes, we do, and they will stay that way until someone or something comes along in pool to change the paradigm. Which is why I said that the preeminent "science of pool" people should take on the project of building a champion and document the process.


It does happen (e.g. Jim Furyk's golf swing:D), but it is the exception to the rule. Not many people can maintain the extra sharpness required to keep more complex and difficult-to-execute motions from occasionally falling apart. A common expression is that someone's motion has "too many moving parts". If the motion is a required part of success in the activity, then obviously it has to stay.

I understand where you are coming from. Naturally we think that there is or should be a textbook way to play. But if I showed you the stroke of 100 players from the bridge hand through the cue ball you would probably conclude that the moving parts you can't see are all doing the same thing within a very tight range. However if I then showed you the pre-contact movement of those 100 players you would see a much larger range of movements than you originally thought would or should be there. The conclusion is that there are many many ways to end up imparting a quality stroke consistently.

I'm new around here. This thread obviously has passion on both sides of the discussion, maybe from previous discussions, and it's getting too close to personal for me to enjoy participating (although no one has been rude to me). From here on I think I'll just read. Regards to all.:thumbup:

Welcome to AZB. I think that this is just another version of the nature vs. nurture debate. The fact of it that pool players benefit from the science guys quite a lot as none of the improvements in equipment and true pool knowledge would be there today without people taking a keen interest in pool from the scientific perspective.

I took the original question to mean, on matters of shooting whom do you trust more, the science person who can explain the exact mechanics or the experienced person who can demonstrate the mechanics in action?

Dr. Dave has a video on his site where Mike Massey's power draw is analyzed. When it comes to learning to draw the ball like that I'd rather have Mike teaching me than Dr. Dave. No offense to Dave but Mike does that shot routinely and knows how it FEELS and hopefully can impart that to me.

When I taught people to jump using jump cues as part of my job selling them I quickly learned that explaining the mechanics of the jump shot only worked for SOME people. I had to learn at least ten different ways to demonstrate to people what to do, including learning to imitate them doing it wrong so that they could see what I was seeing. In other words I am confident that if presented with 100 people eager to learn to jump at a show I can have most of them jumping within five minutes simply because of my experience teaching using a library of techniques I had to create on my own. Simply knowing the mechanics isn't enough. I had diagrams and videos that I created along with a booklet defining the exact way to jump a ball written by a Master Instructor.

But that means nothing if the student can't translate it. Being a good instructor means you have to go way outside the prescribed book version in order to translate the feeling of success to the student. That is where experience trumps science in my opinion.
 
Different strokes for different folks.

There are many great players that dropped out of school to pursue pool without learning geometry, algebra and scientific methodology - they had a sense of of the game.

Each person has abilities that differ in degrees from others. Some that are great at mathematics may never be able to play good pool unless they are able to apply their math skills to the table. Mathematics can be 2 demensional like pictures on a piece of paper with lines and numbers.

There needs to be a sense of spacial comprehension to apply that gift to the 3D world of pool. There are mathemeticians that have low spacial comprehension that will never excell at pool.

Those that have that skill know what side of the OB to send the CB. They also can imagine where the CB will go after impacting the OB to effect shape. That doesn't mean that they will send the CB to the GB to send the OB to the target or send the CB to the correct spot to effect shape.

There needs to be the ability to execute/effect a mind - motor skill required to aquire the ability to stroke the cue with accurate consistency. That skill will also allow one to control the CB to stop at the desired spot to effect shape.

Executing the fundamental science and accomplishing the desired results require both skills even if the shooter doesn't know that he is executing the fundamental truths of the science at the core of pool - i.e., Kieth McCready.

The student that has a knowledge of the core science of pool can achieve a higher level of pool sooner than the one that has the skills derived from hitting a millon balls without knowing the core science - i.e., College Champ Max Eberle (the former).

Who would be the better teacher - Keith or Max? I choose Max although Keith is/was the better shooter.

Those that understand the science are educated in science and are probably more articulate in the English language and their teachings that can also accelerate the learning process as can the pool instructors here.

So what is the take away from this thread?

Different strokes for different folks - for those that want to excell?

Just saying.:wink::thumbup:
 
Hola,

imo science and expirience have to be combined (next to great amount of table time !!!).
Each of the old school players also learnt that- they also *did* their expiriences and also got knowledge -like everyone else. Some learnt it the hard way, thru *try and error* and makin their own decisions what works best for them. And i am 100% sure, that each wordlchampion made 10.000 thoughts about how things happened. They reached their abilities during endless practice sessions and *pulling* out the correct picture at the right moment-that s it.

Knowledge is, what makes the better player (next to mechanical abilites/skills and practice). Even if a strong player perhaps is not able to put it into *transferable words*, he has done his homework for sure-just the way that he understood it and made it to work for him.

Science (theoretical knowledge) and expirience are running parallel for me-and the key is, to put it all together. Nothing else,

lg
ingo
 
If that's the case then the scientific method should have produced a lot of top players by now.

After all we have had plenty of books that define the science behind pool for two decades.

I think it would be an interesting experiment. I would be willing to bet 10,000 on the champion's player to beat the scientist's player in an all-around competition after one month of coaching.
So Dr. Dave and Buddy can both get their student to basic competence in 10 hours. (hypothetically) What happens AFTER that 10 hours?

What in your opinion can Dave do scientifically that will build a better player in 30 days than Buddy can do in the same time frame?

JB Cases, science behind pool, is fascinating, and accurate; thanks to Dr. Dave and everyone else. However, due to the many variables that effect results when playing pool, one will say Dr. Dave do not know what he is talking about, but when you get close to mastering pool, you going to say, oh yeha Dr. Dave did say that. Truthfully he is 100000% accurate and every word he said is correct. By knowing the science behind pool you will know how to shoot pool accurately and consistently, and will know for sure why you miss;only thing you need to practice is cue ball speed control. I have to admit, there is little secrets/knowledge (often ignored) that will have to be taught in how to apply the science correctly, other wise will take you years to discover on your own.
Finally Thanks Dr. Dave for spreading the knowledge, we cannot thank you enough.

I guarantee you that if i get a "B" player, that love the game and want to learn, i will make him an A+++ in making balls any kind of english or speed, in very short time, 14 days total or less, 1/2 hr a day teaching and 2 hr practice; but to make him a pro requires CB speed control and banks that takes more time.
 
JB Cases, science behind pool, is fascinating, and accurate; thanks to Dr. Dave and everyone else. However, due to the many variables that effect results when playing pool, one will say Dr. Dave do not know what he is talking about, but when you get close to mastering pool, you going to say, oh yeha Dr. Dave did say that. Truthfully he is 100000% accurate and every word he said is correct. By knowing the science behind pool you will know how to shoot pool accurately and consistently, and will know for sure why you miss;only thing you need to practice is cue ball speed control. I have to admit, there is little secrets/knowledge (often ignored) that will have to be taught in how to apply the science correctly, other wise will take you years to discover on your own.
Finally Thanks Dr. Dave for spreading the knowledge, we cannot thank you enough.

I guarantee you that if i get a "B" player, that love the game and want to learn, i will make him an A+++ in making balls any kind of english or speed, in very short time, 14 days total or less, 1/2 hr a day teaching and 2 hr practice; but to make him a pro requires CB speed control and banks that takes more time.

Let's make sure that you understand me. I have never said that Dr. Dave does not know what he is talking about. I said that the experience of a champion player trumps Dr. Dave's knowledge WHEN it comes to teaching someone to play.

Does Mike Massey know the mechanical equations behind his power draw shots? Knowing Mike I can tell you with 99.99% certainty that the answer is no.

Now, Dave can tell you the equations. He can tell you what he thinks that the motion should be. He can show you video of other people doing it. But he can demonstrate it can he? He can't tell you how it feels to draw a ball two rails or more because he has never done it consistently if at all while Mike does it routinely.

This is why Mike Massey can fascinate a group of hardcore experienced players with shots that none of them have ever seen before. He is on another level when it comes to knowledge of how to make the balls do what he wants them to do. Does he know the math? No, does he need to know the math? No.
 
Perhaps certain pros could teach you how to draw the ball better than a Dr. Dave. But maybe not. Certainly few, if any, could describe the science and physics as well as he could. And chances are, even after instruction from a pro, you're not going to be able to draw the ball like Larry Nevel. Many pros are going to tell you that, to hit a good draw shot, all you need is to hit the ball low and smooth and that’s about it. I believe someone like Dr. Dave is going to be able to tell you about how everything from your grip, stick elevation, tip curvature, chalk application, bridge selection, delivery, cue speed, cloth and cue ball condition, and applied cue ball RPMs are going to affect your draw. And I kinda doubt Buddy Hall is going to be explaining the trisect, the double-bisect, and the 30-minus-a-third system to you.

The thing about the science is that for those of us who are not living and sleeping in a pool room and traveling on the road, it cuts down the learning curve. All the pros who are not familiar with the science have gained their knowledge through thousands of hours of play, trial and error, and tidbits and tips passed on from other players, pool room scholars, and the occasional mentor. And that’s how you get a Mike Sigel saying throw doesn’t exist, or even a Willie Mosconi saying that the way you make a ball frozen to the rail is to hit the ball and rail simultaneously. Knowing the science gives you a leg up on becoming a better player faster because it provides you with an understanding of why things work (or don’t), what you’re trying to do when you hit the ball a certain way, and why the balls behave the way they do when they hit each other or a rail.

Here’s an example: combinations and caroms. Over the years I have read all the science about combos and caroms and how the balls “gear” and throw and the influences of spin and speed and gaps and condition of the balls themselves. The science, very early on in my pool playing career, allowed me to work and play combos and caroms out of the stack with a skill and confidence lacking in players far beyond my experience and level of play. Let’s face it, the hit on a frozen or near frozen combo or carom, generally speaking, does not require a fancy hit or stroke, so it’s not about the execution -- it’s all about the knowledge.

Having said all that, I do believe that for the experienced player there is a certain point at which the knowledge of the pro is of more value. It is like going from the 101 level undergraduate courses to the 300 graduate series -- you need the basic courses to get the most out of the advanced courses. Do I want a Buddy Hall to teach me how to draw the ball? No. Do I want him to explain to me how a draw shot feels to him? Or why he would chose a draw shot vs one with follow for a particular position play? Yes, because having the explanation of the science from Dr. Dave I can put the two together: the science *and* the art.

Lou Figueroa
 
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Let's make sure that you understand me. I have never said that Dr. Dave does not know what he is talking about. I said that the experience of a champion player trumps Dr. Dave's knowledge WHEN it comes to teaching someone to play.

Does Mike Massey know the mechanical equations behind his power draw shots? Knowing Mike I can tell you with 99.99% certainty that the answer is no.

Now, Dave can tell you the equations. He can tell you what he thinks that the motion should be. He can show you video of other people doing it. But he can demonstrate it can he? He can't tell you how it feels to draw a ball two rails or more because he has never done it consistently if at all while Mike does it routinely.

This is why Mike Massey can fascinate a group of hardcore experienced players with shots that none of them have ever seen before. He is on another level when it comes to knowledge of how to make the balls do what he wants them to do. Does he know the math? No, does he need to know the math? No.


You might have misunderstood my statement; i am saying only experienced pool players would appreciate Dr. Dave's findings; others, that still trying to find their stroke, aim, focus will have a lot to worry about before they start believing in Dr. Dave's findings.

The other thing if you ask Mike Massey how do you do it, his answer, is "lots of practice" , Dr. Dave answer is an Encyclopedia of pool facts and proofs of how it is done; if Dr. Dave has the time to develop his stroke and the time to apply it "all" , and most importantly the type of tip used, he would be able to draw the ball; i do not think your body size matter here, check some of the young people putting trick shots on YouTube. I bet you Mike Massey benefited from some of Dr's findings, but would he admit it? of course not.
 
But I saw nothing useful in that example that you pointed to. What do you think I should have seen?

Your hypothesis seems to be that because good players sometimes do things that look unorthodox, there are unorthodox techniques that other players should adopt. Well, OK. Specifically which unorthodox techniques, for which purpose and exactly what are they supposed to accomplish? If you are not willing to be specific it's hard to respond to you in any "scientific" way.

I would change unorthodox to non-traditional. As in what average players do. Emulating a successful stroking habit is part of the science aspect. Through observation and experimentation we come up with a hypothesis and theorize why or how something is happening.

After empirical evidence we throw it out or run with it. Is it repeatable? I have been watching closely the strokes of top pros and have found some common habits not typically used in simpler strokes. A simple stroke being an average speed and spin shot. When a degree of speed/spin is needed above a normal level, certain things happen in the follow through that are very quick and hard to see unless you are aware of them.

Having been shown this stroke by an experienced player allows me to see it. I learned this ability to see things that an uninformed onlooker would not through many hours of careful observation while working with the rotational baseball swing. I have explained it to experienced coaches and tried to show them, but some dismissed it and and never caught on.

I explained it while going over video of MLB players' swings to my son's high school coach. He was a grizzled veteran of the game and was at the other end of the spectrum with what he taught. Because of my son's undeniable success, he grudgingly sat down with me and painfully watched what I had to show him.

After an hour or so, he sat up in his chair and said, "You have got to be friggin' kidding me! Play that clip, again!". He was looking at the same video I was, but we were seeing two different things. He started to really look at what I was showing him.

This example is my point about science vs. experience. We can improve the science to improve the experience. Ask yourself, if the cue tip is on the cue ball for 1/1000th of a second, why can't I spin the ball like Buddy? Special tip or shaft? We need to stop dismissing the questions and look for real world answers. Let's move out of the comfort zone and plug in some new variables. Is the testing flawed? Can a robotic arm accomplish a Mike Massey stroke?

I'd like to get a Buddy Hall stroke for XMas. Purists say it's because he has touch or finesse. He has nurtured it and practiced under pressure, etc. Of course. What is the biomechanical process he uses? I would like to hear some ideas and have a few of my own. I will post in another thread, so PITAs, here is your chance for a good argument. You know who you are!:wink:

Best,
Mike
 
The thing about the science is that for those of use who are not living and sleeping in a pool room and traveling on the road, it cuts down the learning curve. All the pros who are not familiar with the science have gained their knowledge through thousands of hours of play, trial and error, and tidbits and tips passed on from other players, pool room scholars, and the occasional mentor.

Lou Figueroa

Just want to make one point clear, thousands of hours of play does not make you a better player; once you are able to apply all pool science aspects and then put thousands of hours; only then you will be a pro player. Truthfully i find this truth the hard way, after nearly 30 years of shooting pool and my skill seems to stay the same, i find out i was doing it wrong, back to the drawing board; now in last three months my skill jumped 30% if not more. Truthfully Dr. Dave's stuff is all it is needed, but there is small little knowledge/secret that it is hard to find in books, or DVDs, and would have to be taught.
 
When I met him and asked about his power draw shot, he provided me an answer much more detailed then "lot's of practice" it was plain to me that he knew enough about the "science' about that shot.

I seriously doubt that Mike has benefited from any of Dr. Daves work. He has been doing his thing, for a long time before anyone even heard of Dr. Dave. In fact I would bet if you asked him, would tell you that he doesn't even know who he is.

Of course this is my opinion.

You might have misunderstood my statement; i am saying only experienced pool players would appreciate Dr. Dave's findings; others, that still trying to find their stroke, aim, focus will have a lot to worry about before they start believing in Dr. Dave's findings.

The other thing if you ask Mike Massey how do you do it, his answer, is "lots of practice" , Dr. Dave answer is an Encyclopedia of pool facts and proofs of how it is done; if Dr. Dave has the time to develop his stroke and the time to apply it "all" , and most importantly the type of tip used, he would be able to draw the ball; i do not think your body size matter here, check some of the young people putting trick shots on YouTube. I bet you Mike Massey benefited from some of Dr's findings, but would he admit it? of course not.
 
What evidence are you referring to? The video of a badly played shot with a quirky stroke that we saw before does not qualify as useful evidence.

The main theory for applying spin is that the further you hit from the center of the ball the more spin the ball will have. Can you point to any observation that contradicts that theory?


I think more spin comes from hitting the cueball closer to center.
 
Think of this as a wheel you need to turn. It has two handles one handle is 1 inch from the center, the other is 24 inches from the center.

Which handle do you think it would be easier to turn the wheel with?

I think more spin comes from hitting the cueball closer to center.
 
Experience. The purpose of science is to prove why it is so, no to doubt that it is, due to insufficient data or a misinterpretation of the facts.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
Think of this as a wheel you need to turn. It has two handles one handle is 1 inch from the center, the other is 24 inches from the center.

Which handle do you think it would be easier to turn the wheel with?

Have you seen Immortals?
 
Ok, educate me. What simple variables are missing from my example?

While you are at it what 'Gods' do you think are on your side?
 
I think more spin comes from hitting the cueball closer to center.

Nope. Basic physics, 1st or 2nd grade? If this is what you experience from your own playing, I'll bet one could video-tape you applying so-called backhand english (= hit the cue ball farther off center than aimed).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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