Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

I think many, myself included, just get comfortable with pulling the trigger very soon after we 'know' that the cue line is correct & that comes from aiming & looking at the OB.

If one is more of a going down exactly on line then I THINK one might be more apt to be an OB last type.

CJ basically was/is not aiming but merely aligning center to center or center to edge & then moving the CB over with the TOI to get the cut angle.

The alignment does not have to be extremely precise as aiming seems to be... as TOI is a dynamic method dependent on tip placement on the CB & speed of stroke.

CJ's experience may have allowed him to evolve to what he says.

I found that I had much better control of the speed for the TOI shot when I was looking at the OB for the forward stroke.

Again, what I am saying is just food for thought.

All Best Wishes for ALL.
 
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HawaiianEye said:
If you don't look at the cue ball, how do you know where you are hitting it?

I know where I hit the object ball because I have it in my field of vision as well, but it doesn't have my main attention until I have struck the cue ball first.
Click to expand...

Because that is what your practice strokes are for. You zero in on the precise spot, ensuring your tip goes to the exact spot on the cb each and every time.

You have just "told" your mind what you want to do, and how to do it. Now, you look at the ob because as the old adage that still applies here, "your hands follow your eyes" Looking at the ob and your hands will follow your lead.

Looking at the cb only is like shooting blindfolded imho. But, that does not mean some folks can't do it, and I suspect there are a few that can shoot well that way. But they have some natural skill set that allows them to that most everyone else will not be able to replicate.

So, just like maple vs LD shafts, do what works best for you.:thumbup:
 
SamLambert said:
It is true that if you are aligned correctly and stroke perfectly straight, you could close your eyes and still make the shot.

I think that since I have difficulty striking the cueball where I want precisely, looking at the cueball helps me achieve a more accurate striking point. I don't feel looking at the object ball helps me for anything other than initial alignment.
Click to expand...

Not to be harsh, but if you MUST look at the CB to ensure you are hitting it properly, then your stroke sucks.
 
ChicagoRJ said:
Now, you look at the ob because as the old adage that still applies here, "your hands follow your eyes" Looking at the ob and your hands will follow your lead.
Click to expand...

You have got to be kidding me. You cant be serious with that statement?????

Somebody explained it to me like this. If you are riding a motorcycle down the road and you look over in the ditch, where is the motorcycle going to go? Well, right in the ditch, of course, because it will go where your eyes go.

I've ridden motorcycles my whole life and my motorcycle would continue to go straight down the road. Nor does a cue go where the eyes go.

Unbelievable. And, unfortunately, I've heard this idiotic stuff from others.
 
We have had posts to this thread by over 100 members.

Just wanted to thank everyone for keeping it civil. I realize this is a topic that some feel strongly about.

It is nice to be able to have discussion and differences without vitriol.:thumbup:
 
gregcantrall said:
We have had posts to this thread by over 100 members.

Just wanted to thank everyone for keeping it civil. I realize this is a topic that some feel strongly about.

It is nice to be able to have discussion and differences without vitriol.:thumbup:
Click to expand...

You're 100% correct. Sorry to DCP and anyone else.
 
Yeah, i'm sorry to for my comment about "idiotic"

I guess I just totally disagree with others logic and perceptions.

r/DCP
 
I have only read the original post, as I am not looking for advice on this matter. I will say, I have to look at the OB last. Only on jump and masse shots do I look at the cue ball last. I bring my sight up to the perfect contact point, the point that intersects the ball and my intended line into the pocket. If I do not do this I miss the shot. If I bring my sight up to that point and lock it there, when I deliver my stroke, regardless of distance or english used, I will make the shot the vast majority of the time. All adjustments for squirt, swerve and throware made mentally not visually. This is the only method that works for me. I have spent a lot of time on eye patterns, looking at the cue ball last absolutely does not work for me. It may work for you, though.
 
Ive been messing around with this the past few days, and Im liking the results Im seeing. Its definitely something Im going to slowly incorporate into my game, even if only on certain shots where a super accurate hit on the cb is needed.

The thing I like about it, is the accurate tip placement on the ball, and focusing on, and then getting through the ball correctly. If your stroke is not grooved in, I can see how it could be bad, kind of like aiming a snub nose.

But once you are on your line, if you can trust your stroke, it seems to me to allow more focus more on the shot itself.
 
I often look at the cue ball last, especially when cutting up the long rail. I just have a feel for where to strike the cue, based upon how much cut is needed.
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
You have got to be kidding me. You cant be serious with that statement?????

Somebody explained it to me like this. If you are riding a motorcycle down the road and you look over in the ditch, where is the motorcycle going to go? Well, right in the ditch, of course, because it will go where your eyes go.

I've ridden motorcycles my whole life and my motorcycle would continue to go straight down the road. Nor does a cue go where the eyes go.

Unbelievable. And, unfortunately, I've heard this idiotic stuff from others.
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm serious, and it's a true statement. Oh, so you didn't travel towards the ditch with your motorcycle, thus years of science is erased based on your results .... riiiiiiiight. Brilliant as usual :rolleyes:

There is a reason pitchers are taught from very early age to look at the catchers mit, prior to their windup, during their wind up and at their release.

The only thing idiotic are nubs like you who know it all, but yet, don't know squat. I was not being argumentative in my post, just stating some stuff to help folks shoot. But you needed to go "off the rails" for whatever reason....

I mean, other folks on here say they can hit the cb better if they are looking right at it.... really, so their hands are following their eyes .... hmmmmm, weird huh ?

So, next time i"m chopping wood, I'll look off into the horizon and pray I don't chop off my ankle...
 
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DrCue'sProtege said:
Yeah, i'm sorry to for my comment about "idiotic"

I guess I just totally disagree with others logic and perceptions.

r/DCP
Click to expand...

So, your "logic" is not the same as folks from Northwestern University, as reported in Science Daily. No, worries, you'll be a champ in no time with that attitude.

A new Northwestern University study shows that, not only does your brain handle such complex decisions for you, it also hides information from you about how those decisions are made.

"Our study gives a salient example," said Yangqing 'Lucie' Xu, lead author of the study and a doctoral candidate in psychology at Northwestern. "When you pick up an object, your brain automatically decides how to control your muscles based on what your eyes provide about the object's shape. When you pick up a mug by the handle with your right hand, you need to add a clockwise twist to your grip to compensate for the extra weight that you see on the left side of the mug.

"We showed that the use of this visual information is so powerful and automatic that we cannot turn it off. When people see an object weighted in one direction, they actually can't help but 'feel' the weight in that direction, even when they know that we're tricking them," Xu said.

The researchers conducted two experiments. In the first, people were asked to grasp a vertical stick with a weight hanging from its left or right side. People easily reported which side they felt the weight was on, even when they had their eyes closed.

The researchers then used a set of mirrors to occasionally flip the view of the object so that it looked like the weight was on the left, when actually it was on the right. And although people were told to report on which side they felt the weight (with their hands), the visual image strongly influenced the direction that they felt the weight was coming from, especially when the weights were lighter.

In the second experiment, the researchers tried harder to convince people to ignore the visual information by carefully explaining the nature of the "trick."

"People still could not ignore the visual information," said Xu. "In fact, the effect even works on us, and we designed the experiment!"

Steven Franconeri, co-author of the study and associate professor of cognitive psychology at Northwestern, said the brain is constantly making decisions for us that we don't know about or understand.

"These decisions are usually smart and based on vast experience," he said. "In this study's example, your brain is automatically using visual information to tell your hands what they are feeling. We can show that these decisions are happening by manipulating the information your brain receives -- we mirror-reverse the visual information and your brain now tells your hands that they are feeling the reverse of what they are actually feeling. This inference is mandatory -- you feel it even if you know it's not true."

Franconeri said this is not a "bug" in the brain's operation.

"In the vast majority of cases, you want to 'delegate' decisions like this to the unconscious parts of your brain, leaving you free to focus on less straightforward problems, like following driving directions or enjoying your cup of coffee."
 
I never said years of science was erased. All I said was my motorcycle would continue to go right down the middle of the road.

And I just set up an experiment. I was shooting at the 2-Ball and just before I shot I looked 90 degrees to my right at Allison Fisher's picture on my wall. I continued to stare at Allison when I shot. And the CB went right at the 2-Ball and made it. My cue did NOT go towards Allison Fisher. Imagine that.

And you just cant compare other sports to pool. Pitchers pitching, basketball players shooting, etc. As one person said, when a golfer putts he looks at the putter and the ball at contact and not up at the hole.

I am about to feel like ENGLISH! all of a sudden here.

Cheers to everyone, the best to ya.

r/DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
I never said years of science was erased. All I said was my motorcycle would continue to go right down the middle of the road.

And I just set up an experiment. I was shooting at the 2-Ball and just before I shot I looked 90 degrees to my right at Allison Fisher's picture on my wall. I continued to stare at Allison when I shot. And the CB went right at the 2-Ball and made it. My cue did NOT go towards Allison Fisher. Imagine that.

And you just cant compare other sports to pool. Pitchers pitching, basketball players shooting, etc. As one person said, when a golfer putts he looks at the putter and the ball at contact and not up at the hole.

I am about to feel like ENGLISH! all of a sudden here.

Cheers to everyone, the best to ya.

r/DCP
Click to expand...

Why can't you compare other sports, they all require certain amounts of hand/eye coordination. Some, like baseball, require a LOT more, but pool still has plenty, as does golf. When someone drives a golf ball, guess where they are looking, why don't they teach focusing their eyes on the girls selling snacks at the concession stand? You hands do follow your eyes... but yes, it does not mean you cannot override this natural instinct by consciously thinking about doing something else.

Of course, I can throw a baseball while looking away.... but over time, which one is going to be more accurate, more repeatable, more natural ?
 
ChicagoRJ said:
So, your "logic" is not the same as folks from Northwestern University, as reported in Science Daily. No, worries, you'll be a champ in no time with that attitude.

A new Northwestern University study shows that, not only does your brain handle such complex decisions for you, it also hides information from you about how those decisions are made.

"Our study gives a salient example," said Yangqing 'Lucie' Xu, lead author of the study and a doctoral candidate in psychology at Northwestern. "When you pick up an object, your brain automatically decides how to control your muscles based on what your eyes provide about the object's shape. When you pick up a mug by the handle with your right hand, you need to add a clockwise twist to your grip to compensate for the extra weight that you see on the left side of the mug.

"We showed that the use of this visual information is so powerful and automatic that we cannot turn it off. When people see an object weighted in one direction, they actually can't help but 'feel' the weight in that direction, even when they know that we're tricking them," Xu said.

The researchers conducted two experiments. In the first, people were asked to grasp a vertical stick with a weight hanging from its left or right side. People easily reported which side they felt the weight was on, even when they had their eyes closed.

The researchers then used a set of mirrors to occasionally flip the view of the object so that it looked like the weight was on the left, when actually it was on the right. And although people were told to report on which side they felt the weight (with their hands), the visual image strongly influenced the direction that they felt the weight was coming from, especially when the weights were lighter.

In the second experiment, the researchers tried harder to convince people to ignore the visual information by carefully explaining the nature of the "trick."

"People still could not ignore the visual information," said Xu. "In fact, the effect even works on us, and we designed the experiment!"

Steven Franconeri, co-author of the study and associate professor of cognitive psychology at Northwestern, said the brain is constantly making decisions for us that we don't know about or understand.

"These decisions are usually smart and based on vast experience," he said. "In this study's example, your brain is automatically using visual information to tell your hands what they are feeling. We can show that these decisions are happening by manipulating the information your brain receives -- we mirror-reverse the visual information and your brain now tells your hands that they are feeling the reverse of what they are actually feeling. This inference is mandatory -- you feel it even if you know it's not true."

Franconeri said this is not a "bug" in the brain's operation.

"In the vast majority of cases, you want to 'delegate' decisions like this to the unconscious parts of your brain, leaving you free to focus on less straightforward problems, like following driving directions or enjoying your cup of coffee."
Click to expand...

Great post! Everything I do when I shoot is based upon the belief that my body will deliver the cue ball where my eyes go. I have found this to be true over and over again. Years and years of experience have taught me how to deliver the tip to the exact spot I want while paying no attention to the cue ball visually during the actual stroke. I'm not claiming that because it works for me it is scientifically the best method, however, it absolutely works this way for me. I don't compensate by changing my aiming point on the object ball. I aim at that perfect point while trusting that my body is delivering the cue to the actual contact point that is needed. I understand that seems to fly in the face of following my eyes, however, if my eyes fall a mm short of this mark I will miss the shot by a mm. I have proven this to be undeniably true to myself.

On a side note, there is food for thought in that study in regards to what I was talking about in the LD shafts are they worth it thread. Your body and mind are capable of doing remarkable things without you actively making them do them. If one doesn't embrace this and put faith in this, I don't believe they will ever become as good as they want to be.
 
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A very good thread.

Lotta' good information in this one.
When CJ Wiley speaks, it's a pretty good idea to listen up and at least TRY his stuff for 3 hours a day for a week.
Just my opinion.
 
erhino41 said:
Great post! Everything I do when I shoot is based upon the belief that my body will deliver the cue ball where my eyes go. I have found this to be true over and over again. Years and years of experience have taught me how to deliver the tip to the exact spot I want while paying no attention to the cue ball visually during the actual stroke. I'm not claiming that because it works for me it is scientifically the best method, however, it absolutely works this way for me. I don't compensate by changing my aiming point on the object ball. I aim at that perfect point while trusting that my body is delivering the cue to the actual contact point that is needed. I understand that seems to fly in the face of following my eyes, however, if my eyes fall a mm short of this mark I will miss the shot by a mm. I have proven this to be undeniably true to myself.

On a side note, there is food for thought in that study in regards to what I was talking about in the LD shafts are they worth it thread. Your body and mind are capable of doing remarkable things without you actively making them do them. If one doesn't embrace this and put faith in this, I don't believe they will ever become as good as they want to be.
Click to expand...

----------:thumbup2:----------------
 
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