Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

[gregcantrall]

But you write a great deal.

I had hoped we could have a discussion. I have nothing to sell. I speak of my methods with the idea of providing an honest view point.
I realize my previous post was a little verbose. Well for me.
I was hopeful that you could explain your position.
My position is that both methods work. Each individual should chose what works best for them. I have experience with both. My conclusion applies to me and it is that object ball last provided my best shot making. Cueball at contact providing the best cueball control. The shot making difference is very slight but with better cueball control I face fewer difficult or rescue shots. With Ronnie's statement from a decade ago of it could be either, I wonder if he does change the eye pattern depending on the shot.
I have the utmost respect for Barry Stark and attribute some of my latest improvement to his teachings. He teaches object ball last. That's one thing I disagree with. So 99.9 percentage agreed is fine with me and I would recommend his teaching.
A brief disclaimer: I was a much younger man when shooting object ball last. Stronger and with more endurance. Consecutive recovery shots were often required. So my earliest success I can attribute to bottle. Now older and wiser, I control the white rock better. How does that saying go?

Old age and treachery will overcome youth and exuberance.

So were you asking for me to "write a great deal" ? Perhaps that was a needle or dig. That's OK either way. I am a Big boy and I can take it.

 

[gregcantrall]

But you write a great deal.

I find it disingenuous to quote less than a complete sentence.

I don't understand how that provides a better insight into sending the cueball where they intend.

Your quote of 3 words really diminished my opinion.
I have said add nausea, "I enjoy pool as I can always learn more." Sometimes I get excited when I learn and want to share. I find it disappointing when a professor thinks there is nothing more for them to learn.
I enjoy learning.

 

[gregcantrall]

I enjoy looking for gold in the rivers and streams. Looking for gold in conversations is a part of my hobby of pool also.

"Control the cueball " is my favorite 3 word quote. A quote that I can attribute to so many sources that I have the greatest respect for.

 

[joelpope]

If you look at "striking" sports and "target" sports differently I think that helps with this discussion.

By "target" sports I mean things like darts, basketball, a pitcher in baseball, horseshoes, etc... where you already have the equivalent of the cueball in your hand then you clearly look at the target (object ball) when you deliver your "stroke"

If you then look at "striking sports" I mean things like golf, the hitter in baseball, tennis, pickleball, etc... where you use an instrument to hit the ball and accurately hitting the ball (cueball) is critical to delivering it to the intended destination (object ball) then you clearly "keep your eye on the ball."

To me, it is obvious that pool falls into the second category. If you make the argument that "it is important to hit the object ball exactly" I would say that if you hit the cueball in the wrong place then it will not go where you are aiming it, therefore, hitting the cue ball precisely is a prerequisite to hitting the object ball correctly. You can hit the cueball properly and miss due to a number of reasons but if you mis-hit the cueball you will in all likelihood miss pocketing the object ball and getting the position you planned. If you want to make the argument that "pool is more precise" I would say that when you are propelling a golf ball 200 yards to a 40'x40' green and being off a single degree in club face squaring while delivering the club head at 150+ MPH will result in failure is a pretty precise requirement. There is no argument that you don't look at the green when teeing off on a par 3, you don't look at the left field fence when the pitcher is delivering their pitch and you don't look at the baseline when serving a tennis ball. Every person who has played a "striking sport" has been told to "keep your eye on the ball" and not "keep your eye on the target."

In all striking sports there is considerable attention given to aim & visualization through the entire process and target but without making correct contact between the "instrument" (cue, club, bat, racquet) and the ball (cueball, gold ball, baseball, tennis ball) you will not get consistently good results.

I'm not looking to convince anyone, hell, there are flat earther's out there and you can't change their mind. Just wanted to say my piece.

 

[Bob Jewett]

.... therefore, hitting the cue ball precisely is a prerequisite to hitting the object ball correctly. ...

This is true, however you can assure that by having a good bridge, a straight stroke that returns the tip to the address spot, and a close approach during shot alignment so you can see precisely where the tip will hit the ball. If all of that is set, the cue ball becomes part of your shooting apparatus and now you can concentrate on the target -- the object ball.

You must look at the cue ball when lining up the shot, but I think it is neither necessary nor helpful during the forward stroke, if you have prepared properly.

 

[gregcantrall]

it is neither necessary nor helpful during the forward stroke, if you have prepared properly.

It's not necessary for sure. Some of us find it helpful in attaining the fine tune. Stephen Hendry stated he wouldn't expect a player to be able to switch. As Barry Stark states, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it. My game was broken after an extended lay off. My solution has brought my game back to a level that I can enjoy.
I notice different patterns in snooker players in the aiming process. As you have stated the routine puts me in a position that I should be able to make the shot even with my eyes closed. Mark Williams puts that on display often.

 

[joelpope]

This is true, however you can assure that by having a good bridge, a straight stroke that returns the tip to the address spot, and a close approach during shot alignment so you can see precisely where the tip will hit the ball. If all of that is set, the cue ball becomes part of your shooting apparatus and now you can concentrate on the target -- the object ball.

You must look at the cue ball when lining up the shot, but I think it is neither necessary nor helpful during the forward stroke, if you have prepared properly.

Based on what you are saying, if you have that dependable of a bridge & stroke then once you line up the cue ball & object ball you should just close your eyes to remove any distractions and the cue ball will be delivered to where you want on the object ball. If you deliver the cue tip to where you intend on the cueball then the die is cast & the outcome is just physics. If you are lined up properly and can deliver the consistency of stroke you reference then you will hit the object ball exactly every time.

All I am saying is that hitting the cueball with precision is a prerequisite to hitting the object ball with precision. What percentage of pool players have the stroke you reference where they can consistently deliver the cue tip to the exact place they want on the cueball.

As an aside, I believe the transition from backstroke to forward stroke is the single biggest variable in the average player's stroke. Also, the assumption that you have a "good" bridge is a stretch, I hit a whole lot of shots that my bridge is as good as I can make it but not exactly what I would call "good." You can be jacked up, over a ball or cushion, stretched out and so on all of which make exact delivery of the cue tip more difficult

Again, I do not believe there is a "best" cue maker, cue weight, cue length, tip hardness or brand, table, ball, chalk, yada yada yada, it is personal preference and I'm not trying to convince people to adopt "cue ball last" I'm just making a case that it is not a mandate to go with object ball last.

Can you at least meet me there?

 

[gregcantrall]

I believe the transition from backstroke to forward stroke is the single biggest variable in the average player's stroke.

An aside that is interesting is Ronnie's pause is variable. Sometimes brief, at times it is longer. I am guessing that's when he's dialing in the precision on delicate or difficult shots.
The precision of the strike to the cueball is what I have improved by focusing on that collision.

 

[gregcantrall]

Social Intercourse was an expression I learned as a Sophomore. That year in high school my English teacher was an unmarried and lonely lady. The word Intercourse would trigger a blush. So I (as a member of the rowdy boys) looked for every opportunity to insert the term into classroom discussions. As we were indeed participating in same.

The scientific method is an empirical method for acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century. The scientific method involves careful observation coupled with rigorous skepticism, because cognitive assumptions can distort the interpretation of the observation.

In the name of Scientific method I try to rigorously examine my conclusions based on my observations. The social Intercourse in this thread is evidence of how a set position influences what we see. Matchroom is providing terrific chances for observation. Yet the views often result in opposing conclusions. While statements from the players as to their last look are dismissed as inaccurate. Hmmmmmm?
Seems like politics or religion to me. Oh well I still enjoy Intercourse.
So to get up and walk out in the middle is not good form. Tis a political ploy put on display by politicians when there's, "No Excuse Sir!" ......Oops a military training flashback. The no excuse sir part that is. I didn't invent the words but I labor to employ them to their best avail.

 

[gregcantrall]

I'm 99% sure you're right since I've seen your name a thousand times lol. Sounds right also.

The flaw in that logic is that watching the cue tip impact the cueball allows my eyes to stay with the cueball as it travels to the object ball and see exactly how it interacts with the object ball. I even see any rotation imparted to the object ball. A skid is easily detected and a miss of the point of contact aimed for on the object ball is easily observed as well.
It's disingenuous for a person who only has experience with one method to speak with authority regarding the other. It's disappointing when a person with a large megaphone and presumed expertise promotes flawed logic. The good looks at snooker players eye patterns are available and yet miss interpreted while the words of both Willie Hoppe (Billiards Digest player of the century) and Stephen Hendry (definitely GOAT until Ronnie overtook) are discounted with, "he doesn't know where his eyes are last".
The difference in the results attainable by both methods is slight. Cueball control is the goal of both. It's more readily attained by some one way and others get better results the other. Experiments are a reasonable way to gain knowledge. Try it. You might like it. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

 

[gregcantrall]

It's definitely not good scientific method to take data acquired over 50 years time and compare it to a half hour experiment with the other method.

 

[gregcantrall]

There is an old adage among lawyers that says, "If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts; if you have the law on your side, pound the law; if you have neither the facts nor the law, pound the table."
Lots of table pounding going on in this thread. Just makes a lot of background noise. The facts are available just not as easily seen through a smoke screen.

 

[gregcantrall]

"FOR ME" playing Right ooops I mean object ball last. I could play uh Chop Sticks on the piano. Really well!!! Playing Left.. .ooops I mean cueball at impact. Would compare to Beethoven. That's all on a personal scale. Has no comparison to Ronnie.

 

[gregcantrall]

John Higgins eye pattern is put on display Here
hope the link works. It's on YouTube and live.

 

[gregcantrall]

The video coverage providing a high definition look at the eyes at times makes it worth a bump.

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