Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

[SeniorTom]

Endless back and forth about what is the correct way to look at object ball or cue ball last. I think the best answer is what the vast majority of players use, especially those accomplished players all up and through professional levels makes the largest statement of all. Can hitting the cue ball last work for some people? I guess it does. Although, what do the vast majority of accomplished pool players use as their last object they look at? I have to believe it is the object ball last. If you want to look at the cue ball last go ahead, but don't say it is the most popular way because I don't believe it is.

 

[gregcantrall]

Endless back and forth about what is the correct way to look at object ball or cue ball last. I think the best answer is what the vast majority of players use, especially those accomplished players all up and through professional levels makes the largest statement of all. Can hitting the cue ball last work for some people? I guess it does. Although, what do the vast majority of accomplished pool players use as their last object they look at? I have to believe it is the object ball last. If you want to look at the cue ball last go ahead, but don't say it is the most popular way because I don't believe it is.

I have not nor seen anyone say that cueball last is the most popular. The facts as I know them have been related add nauseated.
My GOAT board shows equal distribution 3-2 in favor of cueball at strike. No claim to superior just equal. The next great debate could be the advantages of lefty vs right handed play. Shirley one is better.

 

[straightline]

Endless back and forth about what is the correct way to look at object ball or cue ball last. I think the best answer is what the vast majority of players use, especially those accomplished players all up and through professional levels makes the largest statement of all. Can hitting the cue ball last work for some people? I guess it does. Although, what do the vast majority of accomplished pool players use as their last object they look at? I have to believe it is the object ball last. If you want to look at the cue ball last go ahead, but don't say it is the most popular way because I don't believe it is.

The way I see it, the vast majority becomes an average; it's own mediocrity. Obviously there will be standouts but only a handful that perform at the current standards of play. That may be semantics but they all miss. Given statistics like that, I look for common causes.

 

[Vahmurka]

The above is a post by Chris Henry, a snooker coach who's been working with some of the elite players (like world champions Shaun Murphy, Mark Selby, like Ali Carter, etc. - I counted about 20 main tour players on his list). Chris has helped those top pros fix some issues that arouse in their game.

While one could see Chris is calling for OB last, the reality is that most players do just fine with quite the opposite.

 

[Bob Jewett]

The above is a post by Chris Henry, a snooker coach who's been working with some of the elite players (like world champions Shaun Murphy, Mark Selby, like Ali Carter, etc. - I counted about 20 main tour players on his list). Chris has helped those top pros fix some issues that arouse in their game.

While one could see Chris is calling for OB last, the reality is that most players do just fine with quite the opposite.

Well, OK, but some players do, in fact, accelerate through the cue ball. And it was found that on one kind of shot, most of the top pros in a Eurotour event all accelerate through the ball.

As I said before, I watched a snooker player carefully, and what he did was contrary to what people said about him and what he said himself.

 

[gregcantrall]

View attachment 738140

The above is a post by Chris Henry, a snooker coach who's been working with some of the elite players (like world champions Shaun Murphy, Mark Selby, like Ali Carter, etc. - I counted about 20 main tour players on his list). Chris has helped those top pros fix some issues that arouse in their game.

While one could see Chris is calling for OB last, the reality is that most players do just fine with quite the opposite.

That's interesting. Just watching Ali Carter and Ronnie playing in the finals and a couple of good looks at Ali's eyes had me convinced that he was object ball at strike. I had reached the same conclusion with Selby and Murphy long ago. "Most top players don't" is in line with my best guessing now, with Mark Allen, Mark Williams, John Higgins and Luka Brecel all seeming to be looking at the white on contact. Along with a good bunch of the upcoming players from the academies.
Ali Carter makes object ball last work darn good in the finals against Ronnie plus he set the record for total centuries in the event.

 

[DeadStick]

Well, OK, but some players do, in fact, accelerate through the cue ball. And it was found that on one kind of shot, most of the top pros in a Eurotour event all accelerate through the ball.

As I said before, I watched a snooker player carefully, and what he did was contrary to what people said about him and what he said himself.

Accelerate through the CB, or into the CB? Impact always results in rapid cue deceleration, right?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Accelerate through the CB, or into the CB? Impact always results in rapid cue deceleration, right?

They were accelerating significantly at the instant of tip-ball contact, which is what "accelerating through the ball" practically means. Of course it is impossible to avoid the deceleration of impact.

 

[gregcantrall]

Looking kind of like an infomercial. At one point Ronnie speaks of finding the point on the object ball and staying with it. Stephen Hendry says the same and yet Stephen is looking at the white when he hits it. Could be interesting if Ronnie gets into the eye pattern.

 

[gregcantrall]

Ronnie speaks of attacking the cueball. My best attack comes when I focus on the impact. That goes for boxing too. Don't strike at the nose strike through it to the back of the head, just the same for the cueball.

 

[gregcantrall]

Here's Ronnie teaching in 2017. At 7 minutes he describes his eye sequence and finishes on the red.

 

[straightline]

That long pink used natural line and a rolling white. Not as touchy as shooting the reds at the foot end.

 

[gregcantrall]

An interesting study is available through Matchroom right now. Anyone that is interested in the facts. Good video coverage provides definitive looks at the eyes on occasion.
World Grand Prix day 5.
Huge lessons available.

 

[ShootingArts]

Well, OK, but some players do, in fact, accelerate through the cue ball. And it was found that on one kind of shot, most of the top pros in a Eurotour event all accelerate through the ball.

As I said before, I watched a snooker player carefully, and what he did was contrary to what people said about him and what he said himself.

Bob,

If you ever have instrumentation on a cue again I would like to know which stroke has the least drop in speed on impact. Maybe they are all basically the same? Just idle curiosity.

Your last sentence is what I have often found too. People often advocate one thing, not knowing that it isn't what they do themselves!

 

[gregcantrall]

Ronnie vs Judd put it on display this morning and round 2 coming at noon. Judd's 5-3 lead almost seems like Judd is in trouble.
Noticed how Judd switched hands flawless. Also got a few good looks at his eye pattern. I have suspected that his conversation with Stephen Hendry could have prompted him to explore.
My observation of Ronnie leads me to quote Yogi, "he's amphibious ". Perhaps what makes him so capable of precision above and beyond.

 

[Oikawa]

My personal experience is that OB last makes it easier to control the speed. However, I find it very useful to look at the CB during the time I pull the cue back. Then when I pause, I move my eyes back to the OB and shoot. This gives me the best accuracy. The reason is that pulling the cue back with no errors is easier while looking at the CB.

 

[Bob Jewett]

My personal experience is that OB last makes it easier to control the speed. However, I find it very useful to look at the CB during the time I pull the cue back. Then when I pause, I move my eyes back to the OB and shoot. This gives me the best accuracy. The reason is that pulling the cue back with no errors is easier while looking at the CB.

That's what Allison Fisher does. And because she has a pause, she has time to fix her gaze -- quiet eye principle -- sharply on the object ball.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I have found I can choose either way. Same skill level. I'm a 673 fargo. Not too high not too low. I think when you're actually in stroke playing all the time it doesn't matter how you look at it. You feel it.

I think for people who are leaning to play, it is important to be looking at the object ball last so they can see whether they sent the cue ball where they intended. Beginners don't have that part down, often.

 

[gregcantrall]

I think for people who are leaning to play, it is important to be looking at the object ball last so they can see whether they sent the cue ball where they intended. Beginners don't have that part down, often.

I don't understand how that provides a better insight into sending the cueball where they intend.
I did indeed start out looking at the object ball as Mosconi prescribed. I did get pretty good that way too. The majority of my trophys were attained that way. When I first read Willie Hoppe's book I tried looking at the cueball last and it didn't feel right. So I wrote it off as interesting but not of any advantage. Figured it was for billiards and besides Mosconi was who I wanted to emulate.
Now that I have switched I focus on the interaction of the tip and cueball and read the cueball as it starts on its journey. My focus stays with the cueball and I see the object ball and any rotation transfered at the collision. When I am "in the zone" the collision is clear and telling, as I see the rotation of the object ball when struck.
Beginning players need to build the foundation first. Making a good solid foundation then employing simple repeatable gravity friendly mechanics to deliver the stroke.
My Kicks Like A Mule Challenge starts one handed and elevated which forces a good foundation and a precise delivery of the tip to the ball. Delivering the tip precisely to the cue ball leads to a precise delivery of the cueball to the object ball. This challenge should be difficult for a beginner but rewarding if mastered. One handed and elevated has me holding the cue to my chest in a finished stroke manner. Putting the emphasis on balance of the cue and the body. The locked cue forces the body position, a good place for a beginner to start.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I don't understand...

But you write a great deal.