Explain it to me in detail, just this once.

To play, gamble or compete is not the same as stealing Freddy of that you must surely agree? I go to the pool hall for all three reasons that you list but stealing is not one of them and playing people that you KNOW you can beat is stealing.

So Freddy, do you believe that it is OK for either (the roadie OR the local) to take another's picture and inquire with their friends about their level of play and then discuss that information with their "corporation" but it is not OK to knock someone's action just for the sake of wiseing up another local as to what would be a fair game?

You bring up some good points. I like to see action as much as the next guy but I resent roadies collecting all of the data on the locals then playing only those whom they know they can beat. I have seen MANY road players of national repute, drop an "even" game like a hot potatoe. This situation seems to repeat itself over and over. While no one plays to lose, it seems that MOST road players turn and run when they find out that they have a tough game. And if they break even at a game after a few hours, you can almost be assured that they won't play THAT game again.

I think back to the "old days" when Earl Heisler and Louie Knott ran the Sports Palace. They would provide information about a player's speed in a way that was not direct. If asked, "Would I have a decent game if I played so and so with the 7 ball?", they would answer, "How much are you playing for?" And if you were betting your limit in a race and were sure to lose they might offer "Well, you might want to try playing him for cheap money." They didn't tell you exactly what you needed to win or break even but at least provided some information as to keep you from losing your whole bank roll.

But all in all even though I like the action and respect the hard job that road players have, I prefer to see road players playing games that are competitive for both parties, the mark and the roadie.
JoeyA



freddy the beard said:
It depends on whether you have a huster's mentality or a square-johns. A hustler is looking to create action, ALLOW action, and WIN MONEY. If you are hanging in the poolroom with a hustler's mentality then you should learn to hate the knockers and the mother hens that run around looking to "protect" their flock. If on the other hand you want to make sure that every game is exactly even, and take it personal when you see someone going "off," why did you pick a poolroom to spend your time in the first place?
When I was coming up, knocking was a dangerous profession. If a player came around that I knew and nobody else did, it was professional courtesy to keep your mouth shut and let grown men take care of themselves. The pluses for this type of behavior was many; you could bet on the side, you could discreetly ask the player for a piece of his action, you could ask for a consideration bite after the player won. By keeping the player anonymous, you could take him to other spots and win more money. If you had a treacherous nature, as some did then, after accumulating trust by keeping silent you could later steer the player into a game where he couldnt win. If players knew they could go places and get action and not get knocked, this encouraged other players, some not so good, to come around and want to play in your place. This made for an action spot where everybody had a chance to make money. In Bensingers, and Detroit's Rack and Cue, knockers were looked upon as pariahs and were always at risk for physical violence.
Example: I brought Jack Cooney to the Black South and West Side poolrooms to play. There were several players in each room that knew Cooney. None said a word. However, after Jack took each joint off, they all came around with their hands out and all received fair consideration. I always thought that you went to a poolroom to play, gamble or compete. Knocking does nothing to further those concepts.

the Beard
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"I always thought that you went to a poolroom to play, gamble or compete. Knocking does nothing to further those concepts."

I think this is the key here. The culprits, knockers, railbirds, whatever you wannt to call them couln't play a big game if they wanted to so in turn this is hte only way they can participate in a remote way in a REAL game.
 
Knockers

If you are depending on someone to "knock" or let you know if a stranger you are playing is too good for you, and you are an action player, you might be missing a good score. If your a good player in your home room, you have to try anybody who comes through the door. You need that mentality, in my opinion, to become a good player. If he's too good, you pull up. Or the info might be bad or you simply might outrun it. You don't make any $$ sitting on the rail, and as scarce as action is getting (especially in CA) these days, you have to fire it up when you get a chance. There are some cases where you need to say something, like close friends or backers, but old school scuffs will keep their mouth shut. Once you get a reputation as a knocker, your going to get knocked yourself. Most knockers are non players or not action players anyway. Like someone else said in this thread, they are someone who just wants to be in the know. In the old days (60's/70's), it was more treacherous, with more action, and a lot more fun. It was also because I was younger and could play a little then. John Henderson
 
I say, do what you can to get an edge. Its gambling, and when money is in the picture you do what you can to win. Rules, there are no rules other then that of being proper and not cheat.
 
JoeyA said:
To play, gamble or compete is not the same as stealing Freddy of that you must surely agree? I go to the pool hall for all three reasons that you list but stealing is not one of them and playing people that you KNOW you can beat is stealing.
JoeyA
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I don't think it is stealing to play people you know you can beat... Each person should be certain they are going to win based on the spot they get, or else they are just bad gamblers. Or else they are just looking for a lesson. At any rate, the loser can chalk the experience up to being a pool lesson and their lo$$ was the cost of that class. They are at least walking away with some experience and (if they kept their eyes open) should have learned something.

Dumping, double-dumping, and all of that crap is certainly stealing. Two people matching up just can't be classified that way... unless there is a hustle or scam going on. Either way, the lesson will be learned or earned, huh?
 
JoeyA said:
I wonder if such a database would increase action or decrease action?
JoeyA
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Years ago they had a book calleg Lions and the Lambs
It did exactly what you are talking about.
 
when i speak of helping a friend i mean other college kids that have literally only been playing for less than a year(i showed them the basics) and are getting money game offers from guys in the top of my league... i tell my friends to get a spot if their going to play... because when its that kind of a matchup its not a real game, it IS a lamb being slaughtered, and i dont feel like having any of my friends here at the college getting a bad taste in their mouths before they have some confidence in their own game.

anybody who's been around for a while, i keep my mouth shut
 
My fantasy

My fantasy is to tie a knocker to a chair, gag him and force him to watch one player robbing another one, winning every game in a row. Seeing the knocker squirm in the chair, desperately trying to stop the game through telepathy, would add 5 yrs to my life.

When I was a pup, when a good game was coming up and we wanted to head off the knock, for certain evil knockers we would fix them up a "shit mickey" in their drink, and then go to the bathroom and lock the door. Thems were the days.

the Beard
 
freddy the beard said:
My fantasy is to tie a knocker to a chair, gag him and force him to watch one player robbing another one, winning every game in a row. Seeing the knocker squirm in the chair, desperately trying to stop the game through telepathy, would add 5 yrs to my life.

When I was a pup, when a good game was coming up and we wanted to head off the knock, for certain evil knockers we would fix them up a "shit mickey" in their drink, and then go to the bathroom and lock the door. Thems were the days.

the Beard
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LOL!!!!!!!!!!
 
freddy the beard said:
My fantasy is to tie a knocker to a chair, gag him and force him to watch one player robbing another one, winning every game in a row. Seeing the knocker squirm in the chair, desperately trying to stop the game through telepathy, would add 5 yrs to my life.

When I was a pup, when a good game was coming up and we wanted to head off the knock, for certain evil knockers we would fix them up a "shit mickey" in their drink, and then go to the bathroom and lock the door. Thems were the days.

the Beard
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That is too funny!!!!!!!!!
 

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The difference between players and con men

Grady wasn't on this subject but he might have well been. Read his "Because you asked" post. That is a road player that I respect. The con men that happen to be running a pool con at the moment I don't give a rat's ass about. Con men deserve no respect or courtesy. They aren't in town to gamble, they are there to score a sure thing.

Sorry I had to link to the whole page, I didn't know how to link to the individual post.

Hu



http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=31727&page=5
 
ShootingArts said:
Joey,

I don't know if such a database would make any difference in action although I would think that in theory it would increase action.

I also think that it is unlikely to be well researched and would be riddled with errors. It would please me mightily to be included in such a database along with my speed on a bad night! :D

Hu
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You and 300 road players. :-)
JoeyA
 
Onemoreyouth said:
when i speak of helping a friend i mean other college kids that have literally only been playing for less than a year(i showed them the basics) and are getting money game offers from guys in the top of my league... i tell my friends to get a spot if their going to play... because when its that kind of a matchup its not a real game, it IS a lamb being slaughtered, and i dont feel like having any of my friends here at the college getting a bad taste in their mouths before they have some confidence in their own game.

anybody who's been around for a while, i keep my mouth shut
Click to expand...

College kids who have only been playing for less than a year should not be playing anybody for more than pocket change.

I will admit however, that in my younger years, if I walked into a strange pool room and saw a 17-20 year old with an attitude about his game, I knew it was time to get out the bait and tackle and go fishing. They will not ever quit and will play until they have no more money. blaming their losses on everything except your superior play.
 
freddy the beard said:
My fantasy is to tie a knocker to a chair, gag him and force him to watch one player robbing another one, winning every game in a row. Seeing the knocker squirm in the chair, desperately trying to stop the game through telepathy, would add 5 yrs to my life.

When I was a pup, when a good game was coming up and we wanted to head off the knock, for certain evil knockers we would fix them up a "shit mickey" in their drink, and then go to the bathroom and lock the door. Thems were the days.

the Beard
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We meet again....
 
freddy the beard said:
My fantasy is to tie a knocker to a chair, gag him and force him to watch one player robbing another one, winning every game in a row. Seeing the knocker squirm in the chair, desperately trying to stop the game through telepathy, would add 5 yrs to my life.

When I was a pup, when a good game was coming up and we wanted to head off the knock, for certain evil knockers we would fix them up a "shit mickey" in their drink, and then go to the bathroom and lock the door. Thems were the days.

the Beard
Click to expand...

Tap, Tap, Tap...... Tar the M....F......ers! I'm with you Freddy. I know you understand.
 
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