Face square?
- Thread starter dquarasr
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dquarasr
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Because for most people that is the best approach. Emphasis on “most”. He states at least twice that individuals should apply what works for them even if it diverges somewhat from the “classic” approaches. He includes all aspects of the stance, from footwork to vision center alignment in an individual’s application of the classic approach.
In my case, having broken my neck in 2010, it is much more comfortable (the best reason for me deviating from the classic) and therefore more repeatable for me to have a slight head tilt, especially over longer sessions at the table.
I have learned how to accommodate this tilt and position my head, face and eyes aligned with the shot line.
Great question.
dquarasr
Registered
@Tennesseejoe
I did another round of the exercise, this time with the 2 ball (right side of the table viewed from the shooter's perspective). Um, not so good.
Stop: 13/20
Follow: 14/20
Draw: 17/20
Observations:
I was definitely tight when I started. I was steering the cue, chopping at it. I was WAY to inside my head concerning how much deflection I'd encounter (even though I had proven to myself my CF shaft is very LD). The more I thought about how to adjust, the worse I shot. I finally gave up and let myself simply shoot.
A few shots into the Follow exercise, I realized that is what I was doing, and I tried to relax. I even shot the Stop shots over, but only improved to 14/20. When I got to the Draw shot, I really focused on NOT THINKING and stroking. Better, and the three I missed I for sure didn't stroke it smoothly.
What does this tell me? Yet again, it tells me I need to be relaxed and TRUST THE SHOT, which is what I did Wednesday night in league when I played pretty well.
Another observation: I can't listen to music I really enjoy and shoot at the same time. Stevie Ray Vaughn, as great a guitar player as he was, bugs me on "Pride and Joy". He's just ever-so-slightly "on top" of the beat, and it drives me crazy. Hard to shoot while I'm critically listening to music. LOL. Another distraction to learn to deal with.
I did another round of the exercise, this time with the 2 ball (right side of the table viewed from the shooter's perspective). Um, not so good.
Stop: 13/20
Follow: 14/20
Draw: 17/20
Observations:
I was definitely tight when I started. I was steering the cue, chopping at it. I was WAY to inside my head concerning how much deflection I'd encounter (even though I had proven to myself my CF shaft is very LD). The more I thought about how to adjust, the worse I shot. I finally gave up and let myself simply shoot.
A few shots into the Follow exercise, I realized that is what I was doing, and I tried to relax. I even shot the Stop shots over, but only improved to 14/20. When I got to the Draw shot, I really focused on NOT THINKING and stroking. Better, and the three I missed I for sure didn't stroke it smoothly.
What does this tell me? Yet again, it tells me I need to be relaxed and TRUST THE SHOT, which is what I did Wednesday night in league when I played pretty well.
Another observation: I can't listen to music I really enjoy and shoot at the same time. Stevie Ray Vaughn, as great a guitar player as he was, bugs me on "Pride and Joy". He's just ever-so-slightly "on top" of the beat, and it drives me crazy. Hard to shoot while I'm critically listening to music. LOL. Another distraction to learn to deal with.
stevie was "on top" of everyones list as a blues guitarist
sounds really good to me....
p.s. keep up your hard work on your game.....
DQ, the straight in shots with English are hard for most players because they have never tried them. It is a different experience and one that brings you back to reality. Go ahead and try the spot shots with the same English patterns we have been using. This is a more interesting test because you will be able to relate it to actual playing.
Throughout this process you have missed shots on the first couple of tries and then dialed it in where you made the shot more consistently. Let's see how it goes with the spot shots. At least at this point you have realized when most of your misses happen. And I think it is in the initial aiming process not your stroke. Good luck.
Throughout this process you have missed shots on the first couple of tries and then dialed it in where you made the shot more consistently. Let's see how it goes with the spot shots. At least at this point you have realized when most of your misses happen. And I think it is in the initial aiming process not your stroke. Good luck.
but why is it the best approach to have your face square to the shot? does any instructor give any scientific explanation?
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Best guess here is that we are most accustomed to viewing things from a square position in every day life. So our brains are best adapted to forming pictures from this orientation and judging things like distance.
Besides, with head at an angle (how I play with no issues btw since I aim with left eye as a rightee), it would make sense if we open ourselves up to more distortions in depth perception when the eyes are literally different distances away from what we are trying to perceive.
makes sense thanks for the explanation.
dquarasr
Registered
Latest: whatever I'm doing is working. Last night 9-ball. I won lag, broke dry, no shot on the 1. Opponent left me a shot on the 1. Ran out.
Second rack, broke dry. Opponent made the 1, missed the 2. I ran out. Up 19-1. I NEVER shoot this well in league. I was up 28-5 and I was getting all the rolls. If I did miss a difficult shot, I'd inadvertently safe him. I also played a number of safes. He eventually got some rolls, and got to 22 in a 38-38 race, so I won 38-22, 16-4 team points. Very happy.
8-ball in a 5-4 race. Down 2-1 early in the match (after being down 2-0). Then I had this. It might not be drawn perfectly, but the 5 blocked the 8.
I was fearful of following the 8 in for a scratch. I INTENDED to go long, hit the long rail first. Yeah, no. Of course, the CB followed the 8 into the pocket. Before you ask, no, I don't think I put any unintended right spin on the CB. My team 7 asked why I didn't avoid going up table. (He had called a timeout earlier that match so I had none left.) But I never walked the table to see it. I can't tell you how many times I've shot similar shots, with the same result: beautiful kick, dead-nuts-on hit on the 8, follow the 8 in for a scratch. But insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, right? Next time I'll walk the table.
In another rack, we had a chess match. Very similar to the rack above, we almost ended up in a stalemate. CB, 3-ball and 8-ball all clustered near the pocket, and I was on the 8. We musta gone back and forth four-five times. IIRC, eventually my opponent let his safe leak out and I think I won that rack.
I came back and won three racks after down 2-0, so I'm happy even though I lost. Didn't get to the hill, but it was a fun match. First match for me as an 8 ball SL6. A few bad decisions, but mostly I shot well, again this week included some crazy back-cut draws (I love those shots - I see them well!) (Yeah, there was that 10-ball cut into the side pocket that would have given me an out in the penultimate rack, but I *barely* caught the point. Oh, well.)
Overall, happy with my continued progress.
As always, thanks for the help during this thread.
Second rack, broke dry. Opponent made the 1, missed the 2. I ran out. Up 19-1. I NEVER shoot this well in league. I was up 28-5 and I was getting all the rolls. If I did miss a difficult shot, I'd inadvertently safe him. I also played a number of safes. He eventually got some rolls, and got to 22 in a 38-38 race, so I won 38-22, 16-4 team points. Very happy.
8-ball in a 5-4 race. Down 2-1 early in the match (after being down 2-0). Then I had this. It might not be drawn perfectly, but the 5 blocked the 8.
I was fearful of following the 8 in for a scratch. I INTENDED to go long, hit the long rail first. Yeah, no. Of course, the CB followed the 8 into the pocket. Before you ask, no, I don't think I put any unintended right spin on the CB. My team 7 asked why I didn't avoid going up table. (He had called a timeout earlier that match so I had none left.) But I never walked the table to see it. I can't tell you how many times I've shot similar shots, with the same result: beautiful kick, dead-nuts-on hit on the 8, follow the 8 in for a scratch. But insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, right? Next time I'll walk the table.
In another rack, we had a chess match. Very similar to the rack above, we almost ended up in a stalemate. CB, 3-ball and 8-ball all clustered near the pocket, and I was on the 8. We musta gone back and forth four-five times. IIRC, eventually my opponent let his safe leak out and I think I won that rack.
I came back and won three racks after down 2-0, so I'm happy even though I lost. Didn't get to the hill, but it was a fun match. First match for me as an 8 ball SL6. A few bad decisions, but mostly I shot well, again this week included some crazy back-cut draws (I love those shots - I see them well!) (Yeah, there was that 10-ball cut into the side pocket that would have given me an out in the penultimate rack, but I *barely* caught the point. Oh, well.)
Overall, happy with my continued progress.
As always, thanks for the help during this thread.
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DQ, I am pleased to hear that you are progressing. Earlier you mentioned you would run racks but get down to the 8 ball and miss. Pressure shots cause this. Here is something that has helped me and you may want to try it on the straight in shots first. Aim the shot till you think you have it correct. While staying down on the shot...aim it about 3 or 4 inches to one side of the pocket...then aim it 3 or 4 inches to the other side. Go back and forth a couple times till you feel confident that you are dead on and shoot. Sometimes this gives you a better perspective especially on pressure shots.
dquarasr
Registered
I will try that, thanks.
It’s not my money ball problem at home bc i keep the balls and the cloth clean, but I finally figured out why I was missing very easy short 30° shots at the hall. The balls and the cloth are dirty! I hit them all thick. Finally figured out i need to aim thinner or use more outside English to counter the more pronounced throw I get at the hall v at home. Duh!
I haven’t forgotten the exercises you recommended, Joe. I’ll get back to them soon. Grandkids are here for spring break so attention is diverted from the table….,,
It's the best to be square to the line of centers between o.b. and c.b. when assessing the upcoming shot. However, most players, including many, many pros, do NOT have their face square in the stance, this will create neck issues over time if you stand with one foot far apart from the other.
This is such an arbitrary statement. How far apart? What angle? Where are the feet that you're speaking of that causes neck problems in relation to the shot line?
It's not an arbitrary statement I've made, the squarer the stance and/or closer the feet to each other in the stance, the fewer the neck issues after squaring the face in the final shooting stance.
As you know, someone stepping forward in their stance has their torso rotate relative to the shot line, naturally. Also naturally, their head moves in space as the torso moves the neck, so that a right-hander has their left eye closer to the target than their right eye--unless someone artifically fights this move to square their face.
This is so convoluted that all I can say is that if someone reading this is dumb enough to go along with it, then they deserve what they get. Feel free to have the last word, Matt. I'm out of this dumb conversation.
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Well don't you two just bring out the best in one another? I think ur feelings for him clouded your judgment on this one. There's nothing dumb about going along with what he said.
His statement that a square stance makes for a square face and turning away from that requires a compensatory turn in the neck to square the face is objectively true. Not convoluted.
First of all, don't assume what feelings I have or don't have. You're going in a bad direction there.
Second, rather than judge everyone on an emotional level, pay attention to the issue at hand--- particularly what was asked and answered. He was clarifying an earlier statement that he made.
So allow me take your virtual hand and walk you through it.
He first wrote:
"It's the best to be square to the line of centers between o.b. and c.b. when assessing the upcoming shot. However, most players, including many, many pros, do NOT have their face square in the stance, this will create neck issues over time if you stand with one foot far apart from the other."
I responded to his post by writing:
"This is such an arbitrary statement. How far apart? What angle? Where are the feet that you're speaking of that causes neck problems in relation to the shot line?"
And finally, here was his response to my specific question.
"It's not an arbitrary statement I've made, the squarer the stance and/or closer the feet to each other in the stance, the fewer the neck issues after squaring the face in the final shooting stance.
As you know, someone stepping forward in their stance has their torso rotate relative to the shot line, naturally. Also naturally, their head moves in space as the torso moves the neck, so that a right-hander has their left eye closer to the target than their right eye--unless someone artifically fights this move to square their face."
So are you saying that adequately explains why players with faces square and feet far apart will over time cause neck issues? Don't judge individual sentences that he wrote, or you will let yourself be led in a trip around the world. Don't lose the topic. He never addressed the stance angle. That should have been the first thing he addressed. If a player is standing parallel to the cue, then I've even said it myself, they'll be playing pool looking over their shoulder. That could promote neck issues. The issue is with the angle of the stance, which he totally snoozed. I even gave him a clue by asking, "What angle?" You can step forward in your stance at a decent angle. Who steps forward with one foot directly in front of the other? Maybe a runway model would.
And by the way, what pros stand so parallel to the shot line that they have to turn their head away from the line to avoid neck strain? How twisted and convoluted is that?
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WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Apologies for any assumptions I made as to the possible reasons for your response.
All I'm saying is his clarification was a factual statement. Not something one would have to be dumb to fall for as you suggested. Once you introduce a rotation you either keep any compensatory twists in the neck out and play with a tilted head with the left eye ahead of the right (as I do) OR you turn your head to square up your face (the topic of the thread). Depending on your body and how many hours a day you play this COULD introduce some minimal strain that will over time bring about neck pain. This type of neck pain caused by an opposite eye dominance is exactly why Morra had to switch his playing hand. It happens and I think Matt was just trying to explain how (tho I agree not so clearly at first).
I'm in no way interested in 'taking sides' in your tiff, I just didn't want people visiting this thread for advice to just dismiss Matt's clarification as you had because, as I said, he's not wrong here.
You can pull any sentence out of anything someone says and say it's right, and it may very well be right. But does it answer the question? If you continue to allow him to take you out of context, you will certainly be on a world tour. Best of luck with that. Take pictures and post them here as you travel. LOL
And as far as right and wrong: Can you name the pros who stand so parallel to the shot line that they have to turn their head away from the target to avoid neck strain? I'm curious who does that. --- or is that not one of the parts he wrote that you agree with?
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