Face square?

[WobblyStroke]

You can pull any sentence out of anything someone says and say it's right, and it may very well be right. But does it answer the question? If you continue to allow him to take you out of context, you will certainly be on a world tour. Best of luck with that. Take pictures and post them here as you travel. LOL

And as far as right and wrong: Can you name the pros who stand so parallel to the shot line that they have to turn their head away from the target to avoid neck strain? I'm curious who does that. --- or is that not one of the parts he wrote that you agree with?

LOL. If that's a direct quote, I don't even think he'd agree with that if he read it back to himself as it makes no sense. From what he wrote in his last couple of posts and what you reacted to, he was vague but not wrong and didn't have anything that silly in there.

The closest thing to that I can think of is if you are sideways and parallel(ish) to the shot line, as you would def find yourself in some spots leaning over the table to shoot, you could strain your neck turning your face square to the shot line. To alleviate any strain, you don't square up the face and allow for the more natural alignment in that position of having the left eye closer to target than the right (for a rightee). So, maybe he meant that their face points way right of the target and they sight from that slanted/tilted position rather than turn their heads towards the target and introduce neck strain. That would at least make sense. It's not that they turn their face away from target, it's that that is the direction their face is naturally aligned to in an extreme setup like the one described with feet on the same line parallel to the shot line.

Edit: As for pros who have kinda extreme stances, I did mention Morra, who had a kinda goofy looking one with his feet close to being on the same line and turned his face to square and sometimes to what looked like past square to right eye slightly forward as he tried to get his dominant left eye over the cue as a right hander. Result: neck strain that forced him to switch to shooting lefty.

 

[FranCrimi]

LOL. If that's a direct quote, I don't even think he'd agree with that if he read it back to himself as it makes no sense. From what he wrote in his last couple of posts and what you reacted to, he was vague but not wrong and didn't have anything that silly in there.

The closest thing to that I can think of is if you are sideways and parallel(ish) to the shot line, as you would def find yourself in some spots leaning over the table to shoot, you could strain your neck turning your face square to the shot line. To alleviate any strain, you don't square up the face and allow for the more natural alignment in that position of having the left eye closer to target than the right (for a rightee). So, maybe he meant that their face points way right of the target and they sight from that slanted/tilted position rather than turn their heads towards the target and introduce neck strain. That would at least make sense. It's not that they turn their face away from target, it's that that is the direction their face is naturally aligned to in an extreme setup like the one described with feet on the same line parallel to the shot line.

Edit: As for pros who have kinda extreme stances, I did mention Morra, who had a kinda goofy looking one with his feet close to being on the same line and turned his face to square and sometimes to what looked like past square to right eye slightly forward as he tried to get his dominant left eye over the cue as a right hander. Result: neck strain that forced him to switch to shooting lefty.

So what I'm taking from your response is that you really don't know what he means, yet you're agreeing with him. He wrote what he meant, didn't he, or do you think a professional writer like Matt is incapable of getting his point across and we have to treat him like someone who doesn't know how to put words together?

 

[EddieBme]

I'm okay with a square face, but what is the advantage?

A square face is key for assessing the shot pre-stance, while standing erect:

1) Consistency in early aim

2) We are built to sight and walk toward targets facing forward

But in the final stance, the view of the target on the ob is different than while standing up--the equator of the sphere looks different. The natural way to stand for a right-hander is with the head rotated, left eye closer to the target.

Looks a lot like McCready's stance IMO

 

[WobblyStroke]

So what I'm taking from your response is that you really don't know what he means, yet you're agreeing with him. He wrote what he meant, didn't he, or do you think a professional writer like Matt is incapable of getting his point across and we have to treat him like someone who doesn't know how to put words together?

No. I read, understood, and agree with his 2 posts (153 and 155) tho the first certainly could have been clearer, but he tidied that up in the second post. The only thing I found confusing was your misrepresentation of his statements when you misquoted him.

I don't think you read what he wrote carefully enough and you missed what he actually said, then you attacked him for your own misinterpretation of his statements. And then when I corrected you and pointed out that what he said was factually true, you claimed I was missing the context before making that post in which you twist what he said into "to avoid neck pain turn head away from target"...which of course is absurd, but he never wrote that, only you did. There is a pretty big difference between being naturally aligned away from target and not fighting that vs actively turning your head away.

He basically said 2 things (both true):
1. if you line up not square, your natural face orientation without any turning of the neck will be right of target (this is not debatable).
2. you can square your face from this position but this may lead to neck pain over time particularly if you play a lot so many players choose to play with a slight tilt with left eye a bit forward.

You asked for an example of a pro who had a stance so extreme it led to neck pain, I gave you Morra. Jam done.

Read more carefully before basically posting that anyone would be stupid to go along with what he wrote, when what he wrote was right... for reasons I laid out in post159.

I only chimed in because you are a very respected member of this forum, justifiably so I might add, and I didn't want ppl to blindly join you in dismissing what Matt wrote...which again, is correct, as Johnny Morra can attest to.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

This is so convoluted that all I can say is that if someone reading this is dumb enough to go along with it, then they deserve what they get. Feel free to have the last word, Matt. I'm out of this dumb conversation.

You are wrong on the facts--and I'd love to debate with you--except you cannot refrain from personal attacks.

I'll restate, just so people see how "convoluted" it is . . .

. . . If your stance tends to naturally rotate your head with your torso and legs--right-handers tend to have their left eye closer to the shot--then squaring your face to the shot, which Fran seems to advocate, will cause you painful neck issues.

Not the first time she's harmed a student. She does it every time she assaults another teacher here who is helping students.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

You can pull any sentence out of anything someone says and say it's right, and it may very well be right. But does it answer the question? If you continue to allow him to take you out of context, you will certainly be on a world tour. Best of luck with that. Take pictures and post them here as you travel. LOL

And as far as right and wrong: Can you name the pros who stand so parallel to the shot line that they have to turn their head away from the target to avoid neck strain? I'm curious who does that. --- or is that not one of the parts he wrote that you agree with?

Besides the fact that Mike Sigel is having neck issues--which you well know--and everyone knows his stance, you are now arguing against me indirectly while attacking another forum member.

Talk to me directly or don't talk.

 

[WobblyStroke]

You are wrong on the facts--and I'd love to debate with you--except you cannot refrain from personal attacks.

I'll restate, just so people see how "convoluted" it is . . .

. . . If your stance tends to naturally rotate your head with your torso and legs--right-handers tend to have their left eye closer to the shot--then squaring your face to the shot, which Fran seems to advocate, will cause you painful neck issues.

Not the first time she's harmed a student. She does it every time she assaults another teacher here who is helping students.

Ok, now we are going too far in the other direction. Squaring the face MAY cause neck pain if you play a ton like pros and have a kinda extreme sideways stance like Siegel or Morra. However, for the vast majority of players who play 10 or less hours a week rather than 40+ like pros, the neck thing shouldn't be much of an issue, esp if they have a more standard stance which I'm pretty sure Fran teaches as well, so it's certainly unfair to say she's hurting students.

And yes, I really do regret butting my head into this spat of yours. Just didn't want students misled by one coach's misinterpretation and dismissal of another coach's sound advice. I'm checking out now. Yall enjoy one another, preferably in DMs as I believe this has been cleared up and anyone tuning in further is just here for the drama...which never ages well.

 

[dquarasr]

Thanks for the various perspectives especially returning to my original reason for starting this thread.

Since I created this thread, I have quit trying to have my head squared, based on responses here. My accuracy and stamina have improved and at the same time my discomfort has been reduced. All adding to my enjoyment of the game tremendously.

 

[FranCrimi]

No. I read, understood, and agree with his 2 posts (153 and 155) tho the first certainly could have been clearer, but he tidied that up in the second post. The only thing I found confusing was your misrepresentation of his statements when you misquoted him.

I don't think you read what he wrote carefully enough and you missed what he actually said, then you attacked him for your own misinterpretation of his statements. And then when I corrected you and pointed out that what he said was factually true, you claimed I was missing the context before making that post in which you twist what he said into "to avoid neck pain turn head away from target"...which of course is absurd, but he never wrote that, only you did. There is a pretty big difference between being naturally aligned away from target and not fighting that vs actively turning your head away.

He basically said 2 things (both true):
1. if you line up not square, your natural face orientation without any turning of the neck will be right of target (this is not debatable).
2. you can square your face from this position but this may lead to neck pain over time particularly if you play a lot so many players choose to play with a slight tilt with left eye a bit forward.

You asked for an example of a pro who had a stance so extreme it led to neck pain, I gave you Morra. Jam done.

Read more carefully before basically posting that anyone would be stupid to go along with what he wrote, when what he wrote was right... for reasons I laid out in post159.

I only chimed in because you are a very respected member of this forum, justifiably so I might add, and I didn't want ppl to blindly join you in dismissing what Matt wrote...which again, is correct, as Johnny Morra can attest to.

So here's a freeze-frame of Morra in a tournament last month. If you go to the match on YouTube you can see that his head isn't tilted. His left eye isn't forward. In fact, his chin was directly over the cue, favoring the left side of the chin, which I'm guessing is his dominant eye, and the cue rubbed his chin on this shot. You can go check the video out yourself. All the info about where the shot was is in the photo.

So are you saying that he took his head off-line since last month?? Because he's certainly not doing it here.

 

[dquarasr]

As much as I’d like to find images of Morra tilting his head, every straight-on photo I found via internet search show his face very square and his cue under his left eye.

 

[bbb]

John Morra (born May 25, 1989) is a Canadian professional pool player. Morra has represented Canada at the World Cup of Pool on seven occasions, partnering Jason Klatt in 2011, 2012 and 2015, and Alex Pagulayan in 2013, 2014, 2017 and 2019. Morra is a multiple time champion on the Canadian 9-Ball pool tour.[1] He reached the quarter-finals of the 2010 World Pool Masters.[2] In 2018, Morra switched from playing right handed to left handed due to a shoulder injury.[citation needed]
............................................
the above is from wiki pedia
there were other articles claiming shoulder NOT NECK injury as the reason for the switch from right to left handed
not sure if this is helpful to the discussion

 

[FranCrimi]

John Morra (born May 25, 1989) is a Canadian professional pool player. Morra has represented Canada at the World Cup of Pool on seven occasions, partnering Jason Klatt in 2011, 2012 and 2015, and Alex Pagulayan in 2013, 2014, 2017 and 2019. Morra is a multiple time champion on the Canadian 9-Ball pool tour.[1] He reached the quarter-finals of the 2010 World Pool Masters.[2] In 2018, Morra switched from playing right handed to left handed due to a shoulder injury.[citation needed]
............................................
the above is from wiki pedia
there were other articles claiming shoulder NOT NECK injury as the reason for the switch from right to left handed
not sure if this is helpful to the discussion

So he had a shoulder injury and not neck strain due to his stance. And his head is certainly straight. This is why I have to stand up and argue these points. There are too many armchair experts who claim things to be facts, but when it comes to proof, the proof is all in their imaginations. When I post something, unless I write that I'm not sure --- which I've done too, then you can bet that I've done extensive research, and my comments are supported by facts.

These so-called experts are going to ruin players' games, and those players aren't even going to know it.

Thanks Larry.

 

[bbb]

just want the facts to be known fran.
so assumptions can be made correctly....

 

[FranCrimi]

just want the facts to be known fran.
so assumptions can be made correctly....

They should have been the ones to research this before making their so-called statements of facts --- not you and me.

 

[WobblyStroke]

So here's a freeze-frame of Morra in a tournament last month. If you go to the match on YouTube you can see that his head isn't tilted. His left eye isn't forward. In fact, his chin was directly over the cue, favoring the left side of the chin, which I'm guessing is his dominant eye, and the cue rubbed his chin on this shot. You can go check the video out yourself. All the info about where the shot was is in the photo.

So are you saying that he took his head off-line since last month?? Because he's certainly not doing it here.

Why on earth are you trying to find a pic of him tilted when the entire discussion is about him playing with a square face from a sideways stance...which was the source of his pain. His sideways stance and square face caused him so much strain in his neck as a left-eye right hander that he was forced to switch sides. Looking at what he's doing after the switch is pointless other than to compare how his stance is way less extreme from the left side.

As much as I’d like to find images of Morra tilting his head, every straight-on photo I found via internet search show his face very square and his cue under his left eye.

He plays with a very square face....that's the whole point here. With his extremely sideways stance and turning his head so his face is all the way square, not to mention with cue under left eye as a right hander, this gave him a lot of strain in his neck forcing him to switch.

John Morra (born May 25, 1989) is a Canadian professional pool player. Morra has represented Canada at the World Cup of Pool on seven occasions, partnering Jason Klatt in 2011, 2012 and 2015, and Alex Pagulayan in 2013, 2014, 2017 and 2019. Morra is a multiple time champion on the Canadian 9-Ball pool tour.[1] He reached the quarter-finals of the 2010 World Pool Masters.[2] In 2018, Morra switched from playing right handed to left handed due to a shoulder injury.[citation needed]
............................................
the above is from wiki pedia
there were other articles claiming shoulder NOT NECK injury as the reason for the switch from right to left handed
not sure if this is helpful to the discussion

'Super accurate' info like this is probably why students aren't allowed to use wiki as a source in their reports. The actual muscle that he strained so badly is his right trapezius. This muscle comes down the back and side of the neck and down the back. Its primary functions are to turn the neck and shrug the shoulders (control the shoulder blade). So ye...neck strain.

Here is a billiards digest article where in an interview they reveal it is his right trapezius and he makes reference to 'the pain in his neck' increasing through his 20s. http://www.billiardsdigest.com/new_current_issue/aug_22/bb_index.php

They should have been the ones to research this before making their so-called statements of facts --- not you and me.

Sorry your research was so inadequate that I had to dig up an article for you in which Morra tells you about his 'neck pain' himself.

Here's a review of the 3 dead solid facts we can take away from this discussion:
1. If you line up sideways, your neutral face alignment will be to the right of target (assume rightee for all)
2. If you turn your face to square from such an extreme position you will undoubtedly feel some slight strain on the right side of your neck (the level of strain will be proportional to the amount of head turn required).
3. Over time, if you play a lot, this slight strain can turn into a problematic amount of pain.

Instead of wasting time looking at wikipedia and useless videos from after he switched, all the research you needed was to stand sideways to the target line, get down, and crank your head all the way to the left to square your face. Unless you have super human flexibility, you will no doubt feel a slight discomfort at the base of your neck on the right side....that is the part of the trapezius that gets strained by such a setup and is exactly what eventually gave Morra so much pain after years of many hours a day stressing that muscle.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Thanks for the various perspectives especially returning to my original reason for starting this thread.

Since I created this thread, I have quit trying to have my head squared, based on responses here. My accuracy and stamina have improved and at the same time my discomfort has been reduced. All adding to my enjoyment of the game tremendously.

That's the whole idea. Glad it worked out for you and you got some value out of this discussion.

I would just like to reiterate for others reading along that playing with a square face is not bad and doesn't necessarily cause neck pain as mentioned earlier, tho it may have been lost in the shuffle.. As mentioned, the amount of strain is proportional to the amount of head turn required to square the face. In conventional stances, the amount of turn required is small enough that it really shouldn't be an issue. It is only when we stand in a way that forces a significant head turn to square up the face that we introduce a level of stretch in the traps that can strain them. That slight strain, then repeated over time, can turn into a problem. But for most people, in standard(ish) stances, playing with a square face is just fine.

 

[bbb]

That's the whole idea. Glad it worked out for you and you got some value out of this discussion.

I would just like to reiterate for others reading along that playing with a square face is not bad and doesn't necessarily cause neck pain as mentioned earlier, tho it may have been lost in the shuffle.. As mentioned, the amount of strain is proportional to the amount of head turn required to square the face. In conventional stances, the amount of turn required is small enough that it really shouldn't be an issue. It is only when we stand in a way that forces a significant head turn to square up the face that we introduce a level of stretch in the traps that can strain them. That slight strain, then repeated over time, can turn into a problem. But for most people, in standard(ish) stances, playing with a square face is just fine.

i thought i would highlight some of your statements which i agree with (even tho i am not an instructor and my agreement doesnt carry much weight).
the real issue of the square face i think has more to do with the way the images from the table reach your brain since one eye is closer and the 2 angles to the focal point are different for each eye giving your brain a 2 different information
but thats a topic to discuss elsewhere
last
i think the moral of the story here is dont force yourself to do something which your body wants to reject
jmho

 

[WobblyStroke]

i thought i would highlight some of your statements which i agree with (even tho i am not an instructor and my agreement doesnt carry much weight).
the real issue of the square face i think has more to do with the way the images from the table reach your brain since one eye is closer and the 2 angles to the focal point are different for each eye giving your brain a 2 different information
but thats a topic to discuss elsewhere
last
i think the moral of the story here is dont force yourself to do something which your body wants to reject
jmho

You've got a whole army of players that play with a square face with no issues giving weight to your agreement .

I think your last statement is spot on. And it can sneak up on you too bc the body may not reject it at all early on whether because of younger age or just the lack of accumulated damage from what was originally a barely noticeable level of discomfort...something easily dealt with and certainly not at a level worthy of considering a technique change to avoid. Then pile up a bunch of hours and barely noticeable turns to mild, then moderate, then after a few years you have serious pain to deal with.... all from a very slight over-stretch in a neck muscle (tho to be fair Morra's stance and level of head turn was so large the over-stretch was certainly more than slight). I'm honestly surprised he lasted as long as he did without altering his technique to alleviate his growing discomfort before getting to a switch or quit point. But I guess it's hard to discard the technique you've always known which has turned you into a world class professional.

 

[FranCrimi]

That's the whole idea. Glad it worked out for you and you got some value out of this discussion.

I would just like to reiterate for others reading along that playing with a square face is not bad and doesn't necessarily cause neck pain as mentioned earlier, tho it may have been lost in the shuffle.. As mentioned, the amount of strain is proportional to the amount of head turn required to square the face. In conventional stances, the amount of turn required is small enough that it really shouldn't be an issue. It is only when we stand in a way that forces a significant head turn to square up the face that we introduce a level of stretch in the traps that can strain them. That slight strain, then repeated over time, can turn into a problem. But for most people, in standard(ish) stances, playing with a square face is just fine.

And I've been asking you to name the pro players who have stances to where their necks are so strained that they would rather tilt their head or even worse, position it off line, rather than adjust their stance. You said Morra. Your are wrong. If Morra made any adjustments to his game, it was his feet, not his head.

You and Matt are spinning and spinning and spinning so much that you don't even know what's up or down anymore. Stop with the head tilt business and stop with Matt's head off line nonsense. You're confusing people who want to improve.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

No. I read, understood, and agree with his 2 posts (153 and 155) tho the first certainly could have been clearer, but he tidied that up in the second post. The only thing I found confusing was your misrepresentation of his statements when you misquoted him.

I don't think you read what he wrote carefully enough and you missed what he actually said, then you attacked him for your own misinterpretation of his statements. And then when I corrected you and pointed out that what he said was factually true, you claimed I was missing the context before making that post in which you twist what he said into "to avoid neck pain turn head away from target"...which of course is absurd, but he never wrote that, only you did. There is a pretty big difference between being naturally aligned away from target and not fighting that vs actively turning your head away.

He basically said 2 things (both true):
1. if you line up not square, your natural face orientation without any turning of the neck will be right of target (this is not debatable).
2. you can square your face from this position but this may lead to neck pain over time particularly if you play a lot so many players choose to play with a slight tilt with left eye a bit forward.

You asked for an example of a pro who had a stance so extreme it led to neck pain, I gave you Morra. Jam done.

Read more carefully before basically posting that anyone would be stupid to go along with what he wrote, when what he wrote was right... for reasons I laid out in post159.

I only chimed in because you are a very respected member of this forum, justifiably so I might add, and I didn't want ppl to blindly join you in dismissing what Matt wrote...which again, is correct, as Johnny Morra can attest to.

Ok, now we are going too far in the other direction. Squaring the face MAY cause neck pain if you play a ton like pros and have a kinda extreme sideways stance like Siegel or Morra. However, for the vast majority of players who play 10 or less hours a week rather than 40+ like pros, the neck thing shouldn't be much of an issue, esp if they have a more standard stance which I'm pretty sure Fran teaches as well, so it's certainly unfair to say she's hurting students.

And yes, I really do regret butting my head into this spat of yours. Just didn't want students misled by one coach's misinterpretation and dismissal of another coach's sound advice. I'm checking out now. Yall enjoy one another, preferably in DMs as I believe this has been cleared up and anyone tuning in further is just here for the drama...which never ages well.

Thank you. I don't think I went too far in asking (again) for a debate of the facts without personal attacks being made.

I coach a lot of students who follow advice like some teachers give, "Chin right down on the cue stick! Bend like this at the waist! Square that face and chin!" and have back and neck pain.

There is another issue to consider--that squaring the face for some, not all, compromises vision center, too.