Facing issue on a new cue

Chris Abaya Cues

Chris Abaya Cues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I searched the forums for this but I did not find any mention of the problems I have regarding facing. I have a newly done cue - butt and shaft rolls straight apart. Joint pin run-off is less than 1 thousands of an inch. Shaft has little or no taper roll and the tip rolls true on the table. Shaft fits snuggly to the uniloc radial pin (used undersized tap). Shaft and joint are sanded together so it has the same diameter. I can get my lathe chucks run-off to about 1 thousands of an inch and face both the butt joint and shaft. When both shaft and butt are connected, there is a slight roll. The tip of the shaft moves slightly off the table when rolled. What I end up doing is finding the high spot on the shaft and filing it off until the the roll is eliminated. Do you guys have the same facing problem I get all the time and do you do the same fix I do of filing the shaft face? I have heard the some Japanese makers have some kind of jig to check and fix facing issues like this. Thanks - Chris
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
I like this guy already........
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I know him. He's a wonderful human being. If I can't piss him off, nobody can :)

Chris, try facing with a steady rest instead of a chuck. Steady rests are much more accurate, IMO.
 
qbilder said:
Chris, try facing with a steady rest instead of a chuck. Steady rests are much more accurate, IMO.
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why do you feel this. to eliminate vibration? not arguing the point just wondering
 
qbilder said:
I know him. He's a wonderful human being. If I can't piss him off, nobody can :)

Chris, try facing with a steady rest instead of a chuck. Steady rests are much more accurate, IMO.
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We have a winner!
 
Assuming we're talking about the finger steady rests as opposed to the ball bearing steady rests, how do you guys keep them from harming a finished cue? Or just correct me if you're using a ball bearing steady with a collet.
 
I use a ball bearing rest, not a pin rest. The bearing is usually very true & I use a tapered collet that fits snug into the bearing, and fits like a glove on my cue because it has the same internal taper as my cue's external taper. It offers 360 degrees of support. A 3-jaw chuck barely holds 25% of the area of diameter, not to mention piches it's straight jaws onto a tapered piece. It's just not the right tool for the job. Three jaw chucks are accurate enough for a lot of work, but a bearing rest is nuts on. Even with straight bore collets, they are more accurate than any 3-jaw chuck I have seen. My line of thought when rigging up my set-up was that 360 degree support over a 1" length would theoretically leave zero margin for error, and it would hold the piece spot on every time & be as true as the bearing's runout. Of course it's not quite as perfect as theory, but still light years more accurate than a chuck.
 
qbilder said:
I know him. He's a wonderful human being. If I can't piss him off, nobody can :)

Chris, try facing with a steady rest instead of a chuck. Steady rests are much more accurate, IMO.
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Thanks Eric. How do you know I am not already pissed at you? :D

I have tried using the steady rest before with the same result. The steady rest with the delrin collet has a runoff of 2 thousands. I chuck up the ferrule on the headstock and my steady rest about half an inch away from the joint face of the shaft. Does it make a difference if I chuck up closer to the steady rest?

shakes said:
Or just correct me if you're using a ball bearing steady with a collet.
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I have a ball bearing steady rest with a collet that came with the cuesmith deluxe lathe.
 
qbilder said:
I use a ball bearing rest, not a pin rest. The bearing is usually very true & I use a tapered collet that fits snug into the bearing, and fits like a glove on my cue because it has the same internal taper as my cue's external taper. It offers 360 degrees of support. A 3-jaw chuck barely holds 25% of the area of diameter, not to mention piches it's straight jaws onto a tapered piece. It's just not the right tool for the job. Three jaw chucks are accurate enough for a lot of work, but a bearing rest is nuts on. Even with straight bore collets, they are more accurate than any 3-jaw chuck I have seen. My line of thought when rigging up my set-up was that 360 degree support over a 1" length would theoretically leave zero margin for error, and it would hold the piece spot on every time & be as true as the bearing's runout. Of course it's not quite as perfect as theory, but still light years more accurate than a chuck.
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A tapered collet.. that is most likely what I need. Thanks! Rep to you.
 
Hi Chris; You mentioned the Hightower lathe. Is that the lathe that you were using the chuck, when facing the joint?...JER
 
Yes, Chris. Chuck up closer to the joint. I chuck up about half way up the shaft so it has more rigidity. With your deluxe, you can chuck about half way, then use the back chuck to secure even closer to center. The shaft will bow under centrifugal force, even if too slight to see. That bow will throw off & tweak how it fits into a straight bore collet. Try chucking it up half way, where there's much less room for movement & the shaft is much stiffer. I bet that alone will take care of your problem.

If you want the tapered collets, it's easy enough. Use a boring bar on some delrin & bore to the same taper as your cue. I have several shaft collets for all areas of the shaft, and probably twice as many butt collets. I usually use delrin or ABS but have made a few from phenolic & really like the phenolic on bare wood.

Also, I face everything & make sure it's true before I finish. I wax the faces of each component after it's all trued up to prevent finish from sticking to it. The wax makes it very easy to clean the finish from the edges of the faces.

I'm also guessing your shaft may be warped, or out of true round. Your facing will never be quite right if the shaft is warped near the joint or out of round near the joint. It'll still appear to roll straight alone but will be very noticeable once attached to the butt. The way you cut the shaft down flush to the butt is fine if done correctly, but if anything is a little off then it'll take the shaft out of round & if severe enough will show a noticeable wobble when rolled.
 
Tapered id collets that match the od of my cue as well- I even went as far as to make them all with the same OD and then bored the id of my soft jaws to this diameter for the "best chance of repeatability"- (and I wonder why my people call me anal)

I have been told that a lot of machinists would bore the ID of their chuck jaws to the od of the part they were working on- almost EVERY TIME for this very reason :eek:

With the advent of 6-jaws scrolls and such, maybe this isn't necessary anymore?

One question, The Cue Smith has an aluminum dovetail bed, aka not ground hardened ways like a large metal lathe, what do you think the run-out tolerances are on these from end to end? .005?? You can offset your tail but to comensate but you can't offset your bearing center for this can you?

Won't something that is indicating concentrically true at both ends (as the indicator is in one spot) but potenially cocked at an angle still show as running "true"? (i.e. like a double chucked headstock?)

Wouldn't that put your face(s) at a slight angle??

How do you check for that?

Rambling but would appreciate your thoughts?
-Chris
 
The cuesmith is actually fairly accurate. It's anodized, hardened aluminum bed. Most certainly not hardened steel, but more than suitable for cue work. Too many good cues are built on them to blame the machine for a facing problem. Good thought, but doubtful.

I think .005" would be very tough to see when rolling the cue. It wouldn't wobble, or at least enough to see. The cue sinks into the cloth more than .005", so any roll-off within this amount would be absorbed. One way to check bed truness would be to cut a 29" piece of wood straight & measure every inch or so to check how true & consistent it cuts.
 
IF the bed was off .005, or even .002 and you locked your bearing rest on that spot, wouldn't that cause for face(s) to be off?

Just hypethetically wondering...

One way to test it would be to have a rod that has been ground on the od AND the face- and run your indicator acrross it.

Maybe a rest on a carriage so it it can be dialed in and out is an option?? Shimming up and down can be done currently.

(stopped doing this kind of facing on my Cue Smith quite some time ago)

For those viewing, I am not criticizing the machine in any way, shape or form. Just questioning some procedures is all-

-Chris
 
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If anything is off by any amount, the cue will reflect it. But at what point is it noticeable? Nothing is 100% true dead nuts. But very few cues wobble unless something is bad wrong. It's usually not the machine but instead the technique, or warpage.

If the bed is off by .005", the facing won't be. I'm not sure about the math as it's been a very long time since I was in school, but I think you'd need to factor in the .005" over what length, the distance from the chuck the cut is being made, and some geometry to figure at what degree from 90 degrees the cut is being made. Theoretically, it should be cutting 90 degrees square on the centerline of the lathe. So at what degree does the .005" difference make? I think the answer would be rediculously small, too small to create a wobble strong enough to raise the tip 2mm from the table while the cue is rolled. I don't care to even try figuring out because it simply doesn't matter to me. But only a tiny bit of knowledge on the dynamics & mathematics of machinery & it's clear that .005" of bed variation will not throw off facing nearly enough to see. On an engine crank it might be more critical, but in a cue it's peanuts.

Again, for the topic at hand, I think it's technique or warpage, not machine fault. Some of my machinery most builders would laugh at & I have no problems with cues wobbling when rolled. Facing is just one of those things you gotta get right, and may have to do a few times. Even with tapered collets to make things easier, I still have to sometimes chuck up a component a few times before i'm happy that it's true. Sometimes it works out first try.
 
Great discussion.:thumbup:

I learned quite some time ago (and still am by the way:wink: ) that the crosslide should "technically" go across the face at a very "slight" angle when facing- concave if you will- so when you tighten two faces together, they come together more perfectly than if you were to face perfectly flat/square.

Blow this vision up: if the front was pulled towards you in the rest, say some rediculous amount like 5 degrees. Face it and then stand the cue on its "butt"- it would taper in towards the center- the opposite would happen if the front was pushed away from you while facing.:)

I absolultely agree with you my friend. :wink:

Take care now,
-Chris
 
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