Fair? No way to sell a cue!

VonRhett

VonRhett

Friends Call Me "von"
Silver Member
Soliciting Feedback, thoughts, ideas, etc.

A recent AZ raffle was "won" by a non-AZer. Apparently the raffle owner allowed this person to buy slots off of AZ.

I didn't realize it was a non-AZer until the same name popped up on another raffle, and another AZer asked the question I had - "who is this person"?

The raffle owner replied and stated it's a non-AZer. Buying raffle slots.
But no record.

Here is my reply: This is a major concern for me. When this same person, Ms Mickey, won one of your earlier raffles, I couldn't find her here to congratulate her.

Opening raffles up to "friends" who are not AZer is unacceptable, in my book. Not a reflection of you personally, but that really opens the door to corruption.

One could, theoretically, have a few of their friends "buy slots", then if they win they could, theoretically, tell their friend to keep the cue. That money never really exchanged hands. Who's to say these "friends" even exist??

So you get all the other raffle money and the cue.

The entire purpose of doing these in this format, with AZers publicly committing to buy slots, was to avoid this exact problem.

Selling raffle slots to friends off of AZ. Wow. There goes the entire check & balance system that we had, be it ever so fragile.


How do we know these ghosts even exist?

Since most raffles proceeds are far greater than the current market value of the cue, the raffle owner still comes out ahead when a real person (AZer) wins.

So a mystery friend/ghost/phantom "buys" 4-5 slots. Now the raffle owner has 10% chance of getting the money AND keeping cue. Worse case is, someone else wins and the cue is shipped, still getting top dollar for the cue.

Well, that's it for me and Raffles!
-von
 
A very interesting observation.
popcorn1.gif
Now you are making me think raffles.
popcorn1.gif
 
VonRhett said:
Soliciting Feedback, thoughts, ideas, etc.

A recent AZ raffle was "won" by a non-AZer. Apparently the raffle owner allowed this person to buy slots off of AZ.

I didn't realize it was a non-AZer until the same name popped up on another raffle, and another AZer asked the question I had - "who is this person"?

The raffle owner replied and stated it's a non-AZer. Buying raffle slots.
But no record.

Here is my reply: This is a major concern for me. When this same person, Ms Mickey, won one of your earlier raffles, I couldn't find her here to congratulate her.

Opening raffles up to "friends" who are not AZer is unacceptable, in my book. Not a reflection of you personally, but that really opens the door to corruption.

One could, theoretically, have a few of their friends "buy slots", then if they win they could, theoretically, tell their friend to keep the cue. That money never really exchanged hands. Who's to say these "friends" even exist??

So you get all the other raffle money and the cue.

The entire purpose of doing these in this format, with AZers publicly committing to buy slots, was to avoid this exact problem.

Selling raffle slots to friends off of AZ. Wow. There goes the entire check & balance system that we had, be it ever so fragile.


How do we know these ghosts even exist?

Since most raffles proceeds are far greater than the current market value of the cue, the raffle owner still comes out ahead when a real person (AZer) wins.

So a mystery friend/ghost/phantom "buys" 4-5 slots. Now the raffle owner has 10% chance of getting the money AND keeping cue. Worse case is, someone else wins and the cue is shipped, still getting top dollar for the cue.

Well, that's it for me and Raffles!
-von
Click to expand...


I was afraid this would happen...and had warned about the possibility of corruption in these raffles...but was told to mind my own...so I did.

This needs to be brought to the Mods/Owner's attention ASAP...before more people are duped out of their hard-earned dollars.

Lisa
 
VonRhett said:
Soliciting Feedback, thoughts, ideas, etc.

A recent AZ raffle was "won" by a non-AZer. Apparently the raffle owner allowed this person to buy slots off of AZ.

I didn't realize it was a non-AZer until the same name popped up on another raffle, and another AZer asked the question I had - "who is this person"?

The raffle owner replied and stated it's a non-AZer. Buying raffle slots.
But no record.

Here is my reply: This is a major concern for me. When this same person, Ms Mickey, won one of your earlier raffles, I couldn't find her here to congratulate her.

Opening raffles up to "friends" who are not AZer is unacceptable, in my book. Not a reflection of you personally, but that really opens the door to corruption.

One could, theoretically, have a few of their friends "buy slots", then if they win they could, theoretically, tell their friend to keep the cue. That money never really exchanged hands. Who's to say these "friends" even exist??

So you get all the other raffle money and the cue.

The entire purpose of doing these in this format, with AZers publicly committing to buy slots, was to avoid this exact problem.

Selling raffle slots to friends off of AZ. Wow. There goes the entire check & balance system that we had, be it ever so fragile.


How do we know these ghosts even exist?

Since most raffles proceeds are far greater than the current market value of the cue, the raffle owner still comes out ahead when a real person (AZer) wins.

So a mystery friend/ghost/phantom "buys" 4-5 slots. Now the raffle owner has 10% chance of getting the money AND keeping cue. Worse case is, someone else wins and the cue is shipped, still getting top dollar for the cue.

Well, that's it for me and Raffles!
-von
Click to expand...

Well, this was one of my major concerns with the blind raffles in the first place.

So a non-entity (at least a non-AZB entity, and one whose existence can not be confirmed) mysteriously has the ability to purchase closed AZB raffle tickets, and win the the raffle...how could you possibly think that something about that could be anything except above-board?

What if the winner mysteriously sells it back to the person who was raffling it off in the first place at a really good price.....?

IMO, if what you said is indeed the fact, then all of the proceeds from that raffle should be returned to the AZB members who bought the slots. They had a certain understanding of how the raffle was to be run, and that was not the truth. They were all duped.

Joe
 
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i agree

I saw the raffle that you are referring to today, and had even thought about participating, but after seeing that decided to back out.

I agree that only AZ'er's should be allowed to participate. But what's to say someone doesn't has multiple accounts? It is super easy to have many many email addresses. I guess you just have to trust people...
 
Yeah, selling slots off of AZB is just plain wrong. Even if the numbers are pulled randomly from a state lottery it's still wrong.
MULLY
 
VonRhett said:
Soliciting Feedback, thoughts, ideas, etc.

A recent AZ raffle was "won" by a non-AZer. Apparently the raffle owner allowed this person to buy slots off of AZ.

I didn't realize it was a non-AZer until the same name popped up on another raffle, and another AZer asked the question I had - "who is this person"?

The raffle owner replied and stated it's a non-AZer. Buying raffle slots.
But no record.

Here is my reply: This is a major concern for me. When this same person, Ms Mickey, won one of your earlier raffles, I couldn't find her here to congratulate her.

Opening raffles up to "friends" who are not AZer is unacceptable, in my book. Not a reflection of you personally, but that really opens the door to corruption.

One could, theoretically, have a few of their friends "buy slots", then if they win they could, theoretically, tell their friend to keep the cue. That money never really exchanged hands. Who's to say these "friends" even exist??

So you get all the other raffle money and the cue.

The entire purpose of doing these in this format, with AZers publicly committing to buy slots, was to avoid this exact problem.

Selling raffle slots to friends off of AZ. Wow. There goes the entire check & balance system that we had, be it ever so fragile.


How do we know these ghosts even exist?

Since most raffles proceeds are far greater than the current market value of the cue, the raffle owner still comes out ahead when a real person (AZer) wins.

So a mystery friend/ghost/phantom "buys" 4-5 slots. Now the raffle owner has 10% chance of getting the money AND keeping cue. Worse case is, someone else wins and the cue is shipped, still getting top dollar for the cue.

Well, that's it for me and Raffles!
-von
Click to expand...

Isn't it possible that this could happen even inside the AZ community with raffles?:eek:
 
To me , it is the same as buying slots in your own raffle. Not knowing all the participants are members here only raises the question of impropriety, it does not offer up evidence of wrongdoing. This thread should clarify any misunderstanding about who can participate.

As to the refunding of prior raffles, it wont happen. I called for a refund when it was revealed that Varney controlled a raffle behind the scenes. To me, Varney being able to dictate who could participate as well as the fact he himself had a slot in the raffle was unacceptable. It was deceiving and dishonest, leading us here at AZ to believe King was in control when it was revealed after the fact Varney was telling him who could and could not participate.
 
Counterpoint

I'm guessing this will not be a popular response but here it goes...

As long as the drawing is done publicly (such as a state lottery) then what difference does it really make if all of the participants are from AZB? By plunking down your money, you are purchasing 1 chance out of 42 to win a cue. If your number is selected the cue is yours to do as you see fit. If someone else's number is selected then the cue is theirs. It's just that simple.

To date, the raffles appear to have all been conducted above board. Granted, some "rafflers" have stretched the limit of reasonable pricing, but no one was forced to purchase spots. As long as the drawing is done in such a way that can't be manipulated I could care less who else is involved or even who pays. But if my number is called I had better get the cue...
 
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custmqs said:
I'm guessing this will not be a popular response but here it goes...

As long as the drawing is done publicly (such as a state lottery) then what difference does it really make if all of the participants are from AZB? By plunking down your money, you are purchasing 1 chance out of 42 to win a cue. If your number is selected the cue is yours to do as you see fit. If someone else's number is selected then the cue is theirs.

To date, the raffles have all been conducted above board. Granted, some "rafflers" have stretched the limit of reasonable pricing, but no one was forced to purchase spots. As long as the drawing is done in such a way that can't be manipulated I could care less who else is involved or even who pays. But if my number is called I had better get the cue...
Click to expand...


So if I offer a great deal in a raffle and as soon as I post it 20 of the 42 slots are filled by "friends", it is OK ? This is the problem. There is no one posting how they love the cue they won, or offering it for sale. One or all of the unknown participants could be the raffle operator himself, pocketing the money and keeping the cue if one his "friends" win.
 
hangemhigh said:
So if I offer a great deal in a raffle and as soon as I post it 20 of the 42 slots are filled by "friends", it is OK ?
Click to expand...

If someone does this and one of the 20 slots win, he's taking a huge loss on the cue. I say let someone screw themself, I've still got a 1 in 42 chance, as advertised.

-s
 
hangemhigh said:
So if I offer a great deal in a raffle and as soon as I post it 20 of the 42 slots are filled by "friends", it is OK ? This is the problem. There is no one posting how they love the cue they won, or offering it for sale. One or all of the unknown participants could be the raffle operator himself, pocketing the money and keeping the cue if one his "friends" win.
Click to expand...

And what is wrong with that? I really don't see this as an issue at all because it changes NOTHING. Suppose I have 10 slots for sale, each $10 in price. So my cue is worth $100 in a normal raffle. But suppose I buy 5 slots myself...then I'm only getting $50 for the cue, but I only have a 50% chance of winning the cue, so the expected value stays the same.

Summary: Issue doesn't matter, expected value of each ticket and the expected value of the raffle all stay the same no matter who buys the tickets.
 
hangemhigh said:
So if I offer a great deal in a raffle and as soon as I post it 20 of the 42 slots are filled by "friends", it is OK ? This is the problem. There is no one posting how they love the cue they won, or offering it for sale. One or all of the unknown participants could be the raffle operator himself, pocketing the money and keeping the cue if one his "friends" win.
Click to expand...

Yes that is OK.

If my number is called, then the "raffler" collected roughly half of what they could have if they had opened up all of the slots. It is a gamble.

Again, if my number is called I get the cue. If my number is not called someone else gets it.
 
it dosent change a thing, your chances are the same no matter what, if 25% of the spots are "undercover" for lack of a better word, are owned by the owner of the cue, he has a 1 in 4 shot of keeping the cue, but that dosent change the value of the othere spots, say there are 40, and 10 are owned by the cue owner -he has a 1 in 4 shot at getting the $$$ and keeping the cue, the people who buy the othe 30 spots have the same chance of winning, who cares who wins if its not you??? the fact the winner dosent hang out onb a message board is meaningless and unless its required by the guy making the raffel it dosent matter. I have never bought a spot in a raffel, infact it never even occoured to me to buy one.


What I dont understand is why people particapate in raffels where the cue is 25% higher than the market price is, the spots are over priced, those are the people who are being taken advantage of-over paying for a chance. the guy who sells the spots makes out good and the winner of the raffel.
 
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kingwang said:
And what is wrong with that? I really don't see this as an issue at all because it changes NOTHING. Suppose I have 10 slots for sale, each $10 in price. So my cue is worth $100 in a normal raffle. But suppose I buy 5 slots myself...then I'm only getting $50 for the cue, but I only have a 50% chance of winning the cue, so the expected value stays the same.

Summary: Issue doesn't matter, expected value of each ticket and the expected value of the raffle all stay the same no matter who buys the tickets.
Click to expand...


The problem with it is obvious, and the reason any raffle with unverifiable outside participation will not have me as a participant. You can call this a summary judgement of sorts.
 
custmqs said:
I'm guessing this will not be a popular response but here it goes...

As long as the drawing is done publicly (such as a state lottery) then what difference does it really make if all of the participants are from AZB? By plunking down your money, you are purchasing 1 chance out of 42 to win a cue. If your number is selected the cue is yours to do as you see fit. If someone else's number is selected then the cue is theirs. It's just that simple.

To date, the raffles appear to have all been conducted above board. Granted, some "rafflers" have stretched the limit of reasonable pricing, but no one was forced to purchase spots. As long as the drawing is done in such a way that can't be manipulated I could care less who else is involved or even who pays. But if my number is called I had better get the cue...
Click to expand...
i agree with this also....and who cares about thoses raffles???..i'm in the wanted/for sale section...i don't look at the raffle section and don't plan to...but if you do...you will have to deal with the next ingenius scam that comes along...joe
 
hangemhigh said:
The problem with it is obvious, and the reason any raffle with unverifiable outside participation will not have me as a participant. You can call this a summary judgement of sorts.
Click to expand...

It is obvious? I don't see it. Fatboy and I have both posted an analysis on why this is not an issue so I look forward to a response that has more justification than just labeling it as "obvious".
 
Fatboy said:
it dosent change a thing, your chances are the same no matter what, if 25% of the spots are "undercover" for lack of a better word, are owned by the owner of the cue, he has a 1 in 4 shot of keeping the cue, but that dosent change the value of the othere spots, say there are 40, and 10 are owned by the cue owner -he has a 1 in 4 shot at getting the $$$ and keeping the cue, the people who buy the othe 30 spots have the same chance of winning, who cares who wins if its not you??? the fact the winner dosent hang out onb a message board is meaningless and unless its required by the guy making the raffel it dosent matter.


What I dont understand is why people particapate in raffels where the cue is 25% higher than the market price is, the spots are over priced, those are the people who are being taken advantage of-over paying for a chance. the guy who sells the spots makes out good and the winner of the raffel.
Click to expand...


This is where the math does add up and change things. Raffle a cue at 25% more than value, and also be happy to accept 25% less than actual value adds up to the 50% you think the seller might be losing.
 
I don't see a problem as long as the drawing is held with something that can be verified and list is posted before the drawing.

Raffles on here already have a higher on average cost than what the cue would have sold for. They are illegal because their are so many scams with raffles, and often bring in more money than a item should sell for.

You pay your money, you should consider it lost the second you pay it, and if you get lucky you get something of far higher value than the money you tossed out the window to begin with.

Shouldn't matter who buys the slots or even if they are all house numbers but yours. You still have the same odds of your number being drawn.
 
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