Fargo Delete
- Thread starter Shooter08
- Start date
Trivial. Is everyone else that plays him doing the same? Is everyone in your whole web of players in on the conspiracy?
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That's not a problem because Fargo Ratings are not at dependent on who wins the race. The guy who wins 7 games gets winner credit for those games and the 5 game winner gets winner credit for those games.
The fact is that Mike has already run this for years against amateur players and against pro player data. It's going to be very difficult for anyone to really hide their speed in Fargo.
Had this discussion the other day......there is a guy in town who is better than me, at least everyone says he is better than me, he plays real good but I am at the moment ranked slightly higher than him. For Fargo purposes we are even. But the general consensus is that I would need some weight.
So the question is, am I overrated, or is he overrated, or am I just denigrating myself in response to local chatter? Maybe I am playing better than I have been and am actually closer to him than people think I am due to the fact that he is playing all the time and I am not playing that much.
I think over time these questions will work themselves out where people begin to see the true value in Fargo Ratings being that it does objectively rate the skill level without any of the subjective chatter. In other words I can go into a game with this guy at least confident in my ability, because that rating was earned through victories rather than to go in scared because of what other people think.
It would make a difference. Assume the difference in their ratings make a even race 7-3
If he wins 7-1 he exceeded his expectation. His rating will increase.
If he wins 7-5 he underperformed. His rating will decrease.
I agree on your other points
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Are you saying that walking into a pool hall to gamble with a guy in 1p (or any game) is, and should be, the same thing as buying a car or a TV?!?!
I'm not in the "everyone is a winner" camp and don't believe life is, or should be, fair. Sometimes you have the worst of it and sometimes you have the best of it and I know for sure that I wouldn't be where I am in my pool game (and life) if I didn't have to get my comuppences. Sometimes, getting your ass handed to you is a good thing. Sometimes failing is how you succeed. I believe that my pool game went up after I got out of (mostly out of anyways) the handicapped pool world. I cringe at the idea I'm gonna go to a pool hall somewhere, someday and people are gonna ask my name & then say I'll play you a 9-7 race. I'd tell em keep your F'ing spot and I'll play you even.
And I also believe that more and more people are so deathly afraid of failure and public shaming via social media and the internet that they want no part of anything that isn't "fair". Won't participate if it's not a perfectly level playing field. No secret here, but life isn't fair.
I do not bet like you though, and maybe our situations are simply different. I don't and wouldn't ever bet someone 20k.
I'm no champ and this would "benefit" me in more situations than it would hurt me. So as many think if you're against this then it's cause you're looking to rob people, I'm not that guy. Obviously I can't say that's not some people's motives, but unequivocally, it is not my motive.
Maybe I'm seeing FargoRate as part of something I perceive as a problem with our society and it's a "me problem". Maybe I'm wrong but I don't believe this will, should, or can, catch on.
Do you rate swimmers by time?
Do rate runners by time?
Do you rate batters by an average?
Look at any major sport people are rated. Why should pool be different?
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coupla Fargorate questions
Just curious, but how would a losing session effect the Fargo rating of a player who just lost a set by virtue of his/her opponent breaking first and running out the entire set without getting a chance at the table him/herself? Rare, to be sure, but just curious.
Also curious if break and run % of games would effect the Fargo rating of a player. I know for a fact that no team I have ever played on bothered to record any break and run statistics. They only recorded the final points earned by each player.
Just curious, but how would a losing session effect the Fargo rating of a player who just lost a set by virtue of his/her opponent breaking first and running out the entire set without getting a chance at the table him/herself? Rare, to be sure, but just curious.
Also curious if break and run % of games would effect the Fargo rating of a player. I know for a fact that no team I have ever played on bothered to record any break and run statistics. They only recorded the final points earned by each player.
Mike Page can give you a detailed answer. I will give you a simple version.
The decrease will depend on the difference in rating, and the robustness.
FargoRate uses wins and losses. A break and run win carries the same weight as a win that consist of 6 innings.
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I disagree with your examples. Swimmers and runners aren't rated, they're timed. Irrefutable evidence they ran/swam a certain distance in a certain time.
Same with batting averages, it's math. It's absolutely impossible to debate a person who had 200 hits in 500 at bats, has a .400 average. Same with running backs, it's only counting. They're aren't rated as 2000 yard runners, they have 2000 rushing yards, only counting. Quarterback do have ratings, there's 2 different ones (that are popularly seen on ESPN anyways) and they have different top ratings and many people seem to not give them much credence. Carson Palmer had top QBR last year, I doubt there's a long line of people wanting to argue he was the best QB last year. Kirk Cousins and Alex Smith were ahead of Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, and Cam Newton. Just a couple examples of that rating...
If you're point is that Professional Pool should have a top 10 list or something of the nature, then I'd agree with you. Not for any handicapping reasons but simply because I think it'd be good for the game. I believe that list should be established by letting players play one another and the one who wins the the standing champ, like boxing.
However, the point of all my previous posts is I'm simply surprised how many people want pool handicapped. And, if that's not what you're wanting to use FargoRate for then what do you want it for? If it's simply to know where you stand or where other pro's stand against one another, then that's the answer to my question. But I prefer to watch them match up and play (unhandicapped) and let that be my "rating" on whom is better.
The analogy doesn't work for you because of perception. Fine. Myself I will take times, numbers, and math to rate, rank, etc.
I am going to make an assumption, "all my previous posts", means you play a lot frequenting a pool hall. Correct?
You must watch a lot of gambling also. Correct?
Does everyone play even up in these matches?
Does anyone ask for games on the wire, the 8, orange crush, the break, or odds on the money?
If you play one pocket is it even or would you get a spot with Scott Frost?
Which game would be more fun to watch. Scott Frost playing me even for $5000 or a 12-4 game where he has to grind and play his best? By the way I would get killed in that one pocket game.
You last statement is puzzling. What is more accurate?
1. Watching a player play some games, a small data set, with your preconceived notions of playability.
2. Having the records of his last 200 or more games, a large data set, with no perception involved. No excuses just wins and losses.
I play one gentleman a lot. A fair race is 7-4, he is the higher rated player. We play races to 5, I don't ask for a spot. I win a set here and there. In the long run the ratio of games will consistently be around that 7-4.
Mike has proven the point in other posts with people at different levels that he has a lot of games with. The results fall where they should.
I suggest search and read all of Mike's posts, if you really are interested and not just trying to poke holes. He explains it the best.
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We disagree and that's fine. I do take umbrage with the emboldened above. I've not once said a bad word about FargoRate. I've not once said it wouldn't work, won't work, or can't work. I'm not trying to poke holes in anything.
All I've said is I'm surprised about how people want pool handicapped.
Really truly surprised?
People have been asking for spots forever. Very very few ever match up even, outside of tournaments. And even then, there are tournaments that are set up specifically to prohibit players that are a certain speed from entering, in order to attract more participants, and Fargo helps maintain that.
This just makes it a bit easier to get close.
Are you saying that they complain that they can't slide in and rob some C players because their known rating gives them away? Not sympathetic with that at all.
If they are known and people don't like them playing, offer to play with a spot, or a higher spot that normal for the tournament. I've done that, although for some it just makes their egos hurt and they still don't want you in the thing. Almost every time I see a place where the same people win or cash over and over, that local tournament dies out slowly since only the people that win show up. I've seen players walk in all strutting and waving their case around ready to beat up on bangers, soon as they find that they walked into a real pool room where they may sit and watch someone run 2-3 racks on them, they are never seen again. Bad for them, bad for the tournament.
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Not a problem, I read other things into your post. The nice thing is you can use it however it fits Your needs, which is perfect.
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Many "real" players don't, but 95% of players would find it silly or embarrassing to play people they have no hope of beating. While I don't care if I need to play an A player even, if I saw that basically I was just there to hand him my entry fee every week, I would think twice about going to that tournament. I may still do it, but I would resent it, even if I really did not want to. And I'm sure those that were honest with themselves would feel the same way.
There are some levels and events that should not be handicapped, but for the most part, we can't all play good, either due to not caring to, or not having natural ability, or learning by random shots over 20 years and now you just can't re-learn. All those players if they don't have an even playing field would not play. I don't see asking some 19 yr old that started to play in college on his rec room table to go to his local room and run into a guy that runs 50 in straight pool one handed and be happy to never make a ball to come back next week.
I don't want to see a pro event handicapped, on the other hand I would be a bit shocked if a local torment or even a tour not made for only pros was not handicapped. Why would anyone be happy to win against lower level players anyway? I would not want to play someone that misses the pocket by 3 inches every other shot even, it's not good for them, and it's not good for any decent person to win that way.
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I guess I'm surprised at the favorable response it's gotten here. Maybe I'm mis-remembering or simply choosing what to remember but I always kinda thought people on this site hated APA and handicaps in general.
Fair points. To each their own. I know how I learned and wouldn't want to do it any other way but that doesn't make it right for everyone.
Not about an everyone is a winner mentality. It's about being armed with all the available information before you make a deal.
I guess you never heard of a spot book.
A spot book is a book that all the road players, at least the halfway smart ones, kept which held all the information about the players in a spot. What their names were, how strong they were, who would gamble, who the backers were, who the steer men were etc...
In other words the HUSTLER coming to a strange town felt that he was ENTITLED to have ALL of the information needed to be able to match up with him having enough of an edge so as to be virtually insured of making scores.
I guess that was ok but it's not ok if the intended marks have access to information????
Nothing is stopping you or anyone from disregarding available information and matching up blind. But what your personal preferences are for taking risk don't have to be forced on everyone else.
For the rest of us we prefer to have enough information to make it somewhat of a fair game where there is about a 50/50 chance to win instead of being straight up robbed with 0 chance to win. Sorry but getting my ass handed to me when gambling should happen only when it's actually gambling. If it's stealing then it's called getting robbed and I am pretty sure most people don't see getting robbed as a valuable learning experience. It can be an EXPENSIVE learning experience. And the lesson learned is to know who you are matching up with and be ready to demand a fair game.
But don't yall get a patch for every break and run? I know I've seen plenty of leaguers in their " capes " completely full of patchestuff for various milestones like break and run and I made the 8 on the break - then they show you the stack of patches in their case that wouldn't fit in the cape.
On a side note; and I don't see this happening any time soon but it would be so cool, if Fargo could give players an " action " rating much like on the GAL list. Wouldn't need to keep track of good pay because of posting but could keep track of everything else action related. I would totally be down with something like that and THAT FOR SURE would induce action I'd think.
I would say this is a spectacular learning experience. Some of the best things I've ever learned came from my worst decisions.
I disagree with you and I see I'm in the minority and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this will be another situation where I'll get a lesson.
Currently, I have an automatic refillable plate of crow-s**t to eat after LeBron won it all. I'm wrong, a lot, and I'm pretty okay with that.
People on this site do enjoy looking down their noses at APA players, for certain. But they sure won't mind taking their money in a game that the APA player likely has no business being in. Some of them, anyway.
I think this is all that most folks are looking for out of Fargo. Keeping people from robbing people. Not trying to get into the "everyone needs to win" mentality, but you know that there are those who will take advantage of people. Why do those folks feel that they should play even with beginners, yet won't dream of stepping up and playing even with someone their own speed, or better?