Fargo Delete

[JB Cases]

Are you saying that walking into a pool hall to gamble with a guy in 1p (or any game) is, and should be, the same thing as buying a car or a TV?!?!

I'm not in the "everyone is a winner" camp and don't believe life is, or should be, fair. Sometimes you have the worst of it and sometimes you have the best of it and I know for sure that I wouldn't be where I am in my pool game (and life) if I didn't have to get my comuppences. Sometimes, getting your ass handed to you is a good thing. Sometimes failing is how you succeed. I believe that my pool game went up after I got out of (mostly out of anyways) the handicapped pool world. I cringe at the idea I'm gonna go to a pool hall somewhere, someday and people are gonna ask my name & then say I'll play you a 9-7 race. I'd tell em keep your F'ing spot and I'll play you even.

And I also believe that more and more people are so deathly afraid of failure and public shaming via social media and the internet that they want no part of anything that isn't "fair". Won't participate if it's not a perfectly level playing field. No secret here, but life isn't fair.

I do not bet like you though, and maybe our situations are simply different. I don't and wouldn't ever bet someone 20k.

I'm no champ and this would "benefit" me in more situations than it would hurt me. So as many think if you're against this then it's cause you're looking to rob people, I'm not that guy. Obviously I can't say that's not some people's motives, but unequivocally, it is not my motive.

Maybe I'm seeing FargoRate as part of something I perceive as a problem with our society and it's a "me problem". Maybe I'm wrong but I don't believe this will, should, or can, catch on.

Also, pool and life is already handicapped. We as people recognize the differences in ability and skill levels and we generally are willing to help bridge those gaps. Don't you think that there are plenty of carpenters out there who can't stand the idea that some people are putting out professionally done easy to follow videos on carpentry on YouTube for free? In a life shouldn't be fair world that kind of information would be banned and everyone would either need to hire a carpenter or learn the hard way.

Pool has been handicapped FOREVER - read the books from 100-200 years ago and you will see that matches would often take months to arrange while the participants argued about the spot to be given. People were warned in the instructional books to beware of "sharps" (hustlers) who would prey on them by making the victim believe that the sharp was a poor player until the bet was right.

 

[jojopiff]

People on this site do enjoy looking down their noses at APA players, for certain. But they sure won't mind taking their money in a game that the APA player likely has no business being in. Some of them, anyway.

I think this is all that most folks are looking for out of Fargo. Keeping people from robbing people. Not trying to get into the "everyone needs to win" mentality, but you know that there are those who will take advantage of people. Why do those folks feel that they should play even with beginners, yet won't dream of stepping up and playing even with someone their own speed, or better?

Well, I'm absolutely not qualified to give you an answer on human behavior. I'd guess because people are afraid to lose, afraid to fail, or maybe they're afraid to see where they really stand. I was there before and those were my reasons.

Edit to note that I wasn't playing even with beginners but that I was afraid to step up to play the better players. I really don't gamble (on myself playing pool) all that much at all and don't bet much when I do. Never really been my thing.

 

[justadub]

Well, I'm absolutely not qualified to give you an answer on human behavior. I'd guess because people are afraid to lose, afraid to fail, or maybe they're afraid to see where they really stand. I was there before and those were my reasons.

All well and good, and not surprising. Still, I expect that far more folks in that category are simply "hustling", trying to take advantage of players nowhere near their own ability, in order to make an easy score. Those guys aren't interested in matching up evenly, or even close to it. And there are a lot of them out there. They are the ones who really, really don't want Fargo to take off.

 

[JB Cases]

I would say this is a spectacular learning experience. Some of the best things I've ever learned came from my worst decisions.

I disagree with you and I see I'm in the minority and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this will be another situation where I'll get a lesson.

Currently, I have an automatic refillable plate of crow-s**t to eat after LeBron won it all. I'm wrong, a lot, and I'm pretty okay with that.

No, it's not a matter or force. Any player can willfully choose NOT to compete in formal events where results are reported.

Tennis is another sport where people are rated. When you start competing in tennis you start somewhere and eventually have a rated skill level. You can play in tournaments at your skill level and above but not in lower rated events. It's that simple.

You cannot "opt-out" of being rated if you want to play formal competitive tennis. It's part of the social compact of competitive tennis that higher skilled players are not allowed to rob tournaments comprised of lower skilled players.

The same thing applies to pool informally for local events and formally for tours and leagues.

Essentially players willingly OPT IN to being rated when they agree to play in formal competitive events. If all events decide that the Fargo rating method is the one they want to use then that's just the way it is. Either way, whether it's a TD assigning a rating subjectively or Fargo assigning a rating objectively a rating is assigned and there is never an opt-out option. So really the thread is completely meaningless because it presumes a desire to have a state of being that was never a possibility anyway.

 

[lfigueroa]

And it appears that the real Lou Figueroa can be found at loufiguera.com and he is: "Lou Figueroa Inspirational Speaker and Train Accident Survivor".

My speaking rates are reasonable

Lou Figueroa
survived the
JB train wreck

 

[lfigueroa]

In our experience you have never displayed any heart. But if you find some my 20k and me are sitting right here in OKC waiting for you.

OKC - 10 ahead - 20k. Date of Match: ????? Never, as no doctor in the world can find a heart for you.

If you believe that what you have is "heart" you can keep it.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Straightpool_99]

If a player does not want a rating should they be able to play without ranking? If so, is it most fair if they have the same rating as best in field? Fargo rating does give some match ups a bad deal in a head to head game. Why should you have to give up your speed, just because you play tournaments? Strength of player varies by area and scenario! If a player wants no Fargo history, they should be allowed to play without ranking being established!

In principle I agree with you. I don't like the fact that people are gathering and processing information about me, no matter how innocent that information might be. I especially dislike that this information is available to anyone at any time with no controls what so ever. It's like when you throw something in the trash..Granted it's now in the public domain so to speak, but I wouldn't like it if everytime I did so, the trashcan took a picture of me which was then analysed with facial recognition software and all the barcodes on the waste were read and uploaded to a public website, then categorized. Then every burglar, insurance agent and nosy Nelly would be able to see what I owned, ate, drank or whatever. Not cool.

Would you like it if you had to step on a weight/body fat analysing machine every time you went to the gym, then having that data uploaded to a public website? I mean, people could probably eyeball this information if they really wanted, but do we have to help them?

The whole idea is, of course, to help set handicaps at tournaments. Let's for a moment say that this was entirely perfect and successful. In that case, every match in every tournament would be like a coinflip! This is why perfectly handicapped tournaments IMO is an idiotic concept. It only works when it's imperfect. IE letting the better players win while still giving the poor players a faint hope of winning, but mainly an incentive to improve. Otherwise, improving at the game would be futile (unless you did so secretly, at home).

I'm not planning on robbing anybody or misrepresenting my handicap, still I'm not loving this system, though I realize that there is nothing that can be done. I suppose you could still cheat if you participated in a few cheap tournaments where you were willing to dump, in order to lower your handicap. It would be naive to suppose that nobody's ever thought of that...

 

[BmoreMoney]

Pretty much since pool was originated one of the most important skills one could possess was the ability to gauge someone's speed. Regardless of how you yourself played, if able to gauge others speed accurately you could get yourself in a good game. Just as countless other things in today's society, this is another way of " dumbing us down " putting one more thing just a click away as opposed to actually learning how to do something.

I really do like my idea I put forth earlier about somehow adopting some type of " action worthiness " rating into the Fargo system similar to " GAL ". I think if very accurate it could REALLY stimulate the action, especially for the nits that normally won't bet that water is wet. I am aware this is not very practical and will probably never happen but it would be great none the less! Something like that could actually be subscription based as well. You could have an " action finder " of sorts that would be GPS based wherever you were and looking for a game. I remember someone came on here awhile back with something similar as an app but I don't think it ever really took off. The main problem with that thing as I see it is yes it may be able to help you find action, but it still offered nothing as to whether it would be a fair game or not.

 

[jalapus logan]

But don't yall get a patch for every break and run? I know I've seen plenty of leaguers in their " capes " completely full of patchestuff for various milestones like break and run and I made the 8 on the break - then they show you the stack of patches in their case that wouldn't fit in the cape.

On a side note; and I don't see this happening any time soon but it would be so cool, if Fargo could give players an " action " rating much like on the GAL list. Wouldn't need to keep track of good pay because of posting but could keep track of everything else action related. I would totally be down with something like that and THAT FOR SURE would induce action I'd think.

Damn, they give out patches??? They better not be holding out on me, lol

 

[Bob Jewett]

Really truly surprised?

People have been asking for spots forever. ...

Just to provide a little evidence for this....

One of the first books in English about pool was published over 200 years ago in 1807 by E. (Enoch) White. A large part of the book is devoted to fair bets, presumably so the reader could get not-quite-fair bets from others watching the game. It appears to have been standard practice to give spots and lay odds on the winner even while the match was in progress. Below is a typical table that says if a player is giving up 4 on a game to 12, and the score is 9 all, the fair bet is 8 to 5.

People who valued their money back then apparently thought is was ridiculous for the inferior player to bet money without a spot.

 

[justadub]

Just to provide a little evidence for this....

One of the first books in English about pool was published over 200 years ago in 1807 by E. (Enoch) White. A large part of the book is devoted to fair bets, presumably so the reader could get not-quite-fair bets from others watching the game. It appears to have been standard practice to give spots and lay odds on the winner even while the match was in progress. Below is a typical table that says if a player is giving up 4 on a game to 12, and the score is 9 all, the fair bet is 8 to 5.

People who valued their money back then apparently thought is was ridiculous for the inferior play to bet money without a spot.

View attachment 426437

Bunch of nits

 

[shanesinnott]

Why did he have a ski mask? Lol

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=22374&highlight=mask+tournament

 

[one stroke]

That's not a problem because Fargo Ratings are not at dependent on who wins the race. The guy who wins 7 games gets winner credit for those games and the 5 game winner gets winner credit for those games.

The fact is that Mike has already run this for years against amateur players and against pro player data. It's going to be very difficult for anyone to really hide their speed in Fargo.

Had this discussion the other day......there is a guy in town who is better than me, at least everyone says he is better than me, he plays real good but I am at the moment ranked slightly higher than him. For Fargo purposes we are even. But the general consensus is that I would need some weight.

So the question is, am I overrated, or is he overrated, or am I just denigrating myself in response to local chatter? Maybe I am playing better than I have been and am actually closer to him than people think I am due to the fact that he is playing all the time and I am not playing that much.

I think over time these questions will work themselves out where people begin to see the true value in Fargo Ratings being that it does objectively rate the skill level without any of the subjective chatter. In other words I can go into a game with this guy at least confident in my ability, because that rating was earned through victories rather than to go in scared because of what other people think.

First off all the data that's been collected has been done so without players knowing it's going into a data base , nor do they know now excatly how it is going to be used ,,
All people see now is a number ,, let's say player x has a 750 rating and player y has a 675 rating let's say x plays almost exclusively 9 ft 9 ball and player y plays half 9ft 9 ball and half 7 ft nineball he's a monster 7 ft player but a average 9 ft player say like Kirkwood
and thier matching up on a 7ft ,, how do you determine the spot solely based on Fargo ratings ,
You can't , unless you have breakdowns of the numbers with numbers attached for both tables
This of course would only be totaly accuract if the robus number was high players with low robus numbers may not always reflect true speed ,
This won't hinder the true road player because he enters little in any tournys his true speed is never known got more than a couple in our area that fits that bill

1

 

[BeiberLvr]

First off all the data that's been collected has been done so without players knowing it's going into a data base , nor do they know now excatly how it is going to be used ,,
All people see now is a number ,, let's say player x has a 750 rating and player y has a 675 rating let's say x plays almost exclusively 9 ft 9 ball and player y plays half 9ft 9 ball and half 7 ft nineball he's a monster 7 ft player but a average 9 ft player say like Kirkwood
and thier matching up on a 7ft ,, how do you determine the spot solely based on Fargo ratings ,
You can't , unless you have breakdowns of the numbers with numbers attached for both tables
This of course would only be totaly accuract if the robus number was high players with low robus numbers may not always reflect true speed ,
This won't hinder the true road player because he enters little in any tournys his true speed is never known got more than a couple in our area that fits that bill

1

The secret to communicating well enough online in order to get your point across is to have the ability to communicate well.

 

[robsnotes4u]

First off all the data that's been collected has been done so without players knowing it's going into a data base , nor do they know now excatly how it is going to be used ,,

All people see now is a number ,, let's say player x has a 750 rating and player y has a 675 rating let's say x plays almost exclusively 9 ft 9 ball and player y plays half 9ft 9 ball and half 7 ft nineball he's a monster 7 ft player but a average 9 ft player say like Kirkwood

and thier matching up on a 7ft ,, how do you determine the spot solely based on Fargo ratings ,

You can't , unless you have breakdowns of the numbers with numbers attached for both tables

This of course would only be totaly accuract if the robus number was high players with low robus numbers may not always reflect true speed ,

This won't hinder the true road player because he enters little in any tournys his true speed is never known got more than a couple in our area that fits that bill



1

Already been tested and talked about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BmoreMoney]

First off all the data that's been collected has been done so without players knowing it's going into a data base , nor do they know now excatly how it is going to be used ,,
All people see now is a number ,, let's say player x has a 750 rating and player y has a 675 rating let's say x plays almost exclusively 9 ft 9 ball and player y plays half 9ft 9 ball and half 7 ft nineball he's a monster 7 ft player but a average 9 ft player say like Kirkwood
and thier matching up on a 7ft ,, how do you determine the spot solely based on Fargo ratings ,
You can't , unless you have breakdowns of the numbers with numbers attached for both tables
This of course would only be totaly accuract if the robus number was high players with low robus numbers may not always reflect true speed ,
This won't hinder the true road player because he enters little in any tournys his true speed is never known got more than a couple in our area that fits that bill

1

I argued this very scenario for a week straight or more..... all Mike and everyone else kept saying basically is that it wouldn't matter...... it's factored in somehow or the other. I gave up....... Cleary was saying the exact same thing too - also with the same response

 

[JB Cases]

If you believe that what you have is "heart" you can keep it.

Lou Figueroa

You're right. It wasn't heart to go up against someone of your caliber. I dogged it and wasn't outclassed in the least.

All I know is that here I sit with a standing offer to play you for 20k and you're afraid to show up. So define it however you want but most of us would call your behavior nitty and without any heart at all.

You won't even play one pocket against the teenagers in your area for $50 a game. A guy who is afraid of children shouldn't even be in a conversation about heart.

 

[BmoreMoney]

You're right. It wasn't heart to go up against someone of your caliber. I dogged it and wasn't outclassed in the least.

All I know is that here I sit with a standing offer to play you for 20k and you're afraid to show up. So define it however you want but most of us would call your behavior nitty and without any heart at all.

You won't even play one pocket against the teenagers in your area for $50 a game. A guy who is afraid of children shouldn't even be in a conversation about heart.

John, often you and I don't agree but in this case; as I said earlier, IMHO you Def showed a lot of heart when it came to the Lou match. I'm really not sure at all how anyone that knows ANYTHING about pool and gambling could see it any other way.

 

[one stroke]

You're right. It wasn't heart to go up against someone of your caliber. I dogged it and wasn't outclassed in the least.

All I know is that here I sit with a standing offer to play you for 20k and you're afraid to show up. So define it however you want but most of us would call your behavior nitty and without any heart at all.

You won't even play one pocket against the teenagers in your area for $50 a game. A guy who is afraid of children shouldn't even be in a conversation about heart.

Well the fact is the Fargo can't predict the dog one player might be a much different player in matches with zero meaning while others are able to play better when the stakes are higher seen it a hundred times , I know of more than one can't play a lick in a tourny but is a monster player for money ,

1

 

[JB Cases]

First off all the data that's been collected has been done so without players knowing it's going into a data base , nor do they know now excatly how it is going to be used ,,
All people see now is a number ,, let's say player x has a 750 rating and player y has a 675 rating let's say x plays almost exclusively 9 ft 9 ball and player y plays half 9ft 9 ball and half 7 ft nineball he's a monster 7 ft player but a average 9 ft player say like Kirkwood
and thier matching up on a 7ft ,, how do you determine the spot solely based on Fargo ratings ,
You can't , unless you have breakdowns of the numbers with numbers attached for both tables
This of course would only be totaly accuract if the robus number was high players with low robus numbers may not always reflect true speed ,
This won't hinder the true road player because he enters little in any tournys his true speed is never known got more than a couple in our area that fits that bill

1

Life happens. If two players are going to match up then I suppose they will want to use all available information INCLUDING Fargo Ratings. Fargo doesn't replace subjective assessment, it merely adds a layer of objectivity. A method that has been tested extensively for years before every being released to the world at large.

I promise you in a battle of wits I would bet millions on Mike Page against 99.99% of people on Earth. There is no way that Fargo Rate is here without thousands of hours already being invested in making it work right.

How people end up using it is on them. Certainly better than this IMO.