Fargo Rate Question

[sixpack]

I guess I havent explained myself well enough. I have know this player for 20 years. He got married hasnt played much the last 8 years. I know his top game. His top game is about 570 to 580 range. I gave him a 545 based on how he was currently playing. I stand by it 100 percent. I have run a bca league for 20 years. I think i am a pretty good judge. But i also asked the top players in my league for there thoughts. I have several players in the 600.

I dont handicap my league. I run it once a year for 12 weeks just to get everyone qualified. Its kind of like a reunion. LOL No one takes it that seriouly. After my league was over and after this player signed up for singles someone at CSI raised his starting fargo that I gave him to 600. Based on 12 weeks of player he went to 618.

He wasnt the top shooter in the league. He didnt have the best wining percentage. I talked to CSI they have nothing but my league stats as to why they bumped him. They have never seen him play. I think this sets a bad precedent that they can do this based on so little information.

They also told me that if they had no info they would have started him at 625. Correct me if i am wrong i thought 525 was the starter?

MarknTorrance

He has won 77% (or 72% if I have the wrong 618) of his matches. Fargo is only based on win/loss so winning a lot is what raises your rating. Other heuristic measures of how someone plays are irrelevant.

I think he is an experienced player that knows how to win despite not pocketing everything in sight. Fargo picks up on this while APA or jury type handicap systems may not.

 

[Chili Palmer]

No. Fargo counts each rack. 11-0 is very different from 11-10.

How many games does he have, is he established - I'm guessing not as his starter rating was adjusted.


The fact is, his stats warranted a change in his starter rating and his stats then put him where he is. If he is under 200 games then it will work itself out. I wouldn't sweat it.

And for the record I know how he/you feel. I had a 400 starter rating and with 92 games I was at 514, they adjusted my starter to 619 and I'm now at 632. Not sure I agree with it as well but as mentioned, I have 92 games. If I get to 200 and I'm still at 600+ then I guess I deserve to be there and I better start practicing more

 

[MarknTorrance]

A true Fargo problem starts when he starts getting crushed because of an errant rating.

Its also a problem when you are bumped up 70 0r so points just because someone thinks they should.

This does not seem to be the case here. Nothing seems unusual.

Granted this isnt much precedent here i think its unusual to have your baseline starting point to be bumped up 54 points based on 30 or so league games then another 18 points based on how he did.

Were talking about a 28 point difference from his "previous" top game to CSI's rating.

If his top end is the higher, this is just a guess on my part, then he has been moved up by 38 points. Whats the difference? Gold or platinum singles. IMHO huge difference.

MarknTorrance

 

[MarknTorrance]

Ok can someone answer this? What is the starting rating for someone with no games played?

 

[DecentShot]

How many games does he have, is he established - I'm guessing not as his starter rating was adjusted.


The fact is, his stats warranted a change in his starter rating and his stats then put him where he is. If he is under 200 games then it will work itself out. I wouldn't sweat it.

And for the record I know how he/you feel. I had a 400 starter rating and with 92 games I was at 514, they adjusted my starter to 619 and I'm now at 632. Not sure I agree with it as well but as mentioned, I have 92 games. If I get to 200 and I'm still at 600+ then I guess I deserve to be there and I better start practicing more

These bumps in rating would coincide with what happens in the APA correct? You are a 7/9? You would start as a 4ish and then got bumped to a 9 (in 9 ball). 630 for a 7/9 is accurate. I would also like to point out that while the Fargo Ratings themselves are accurate.. the descriptions FROM FargoRate seem exaggerated. I.e. Running a four pack and cashing in a regional. I watch lots of BCA matches of players just above 600...ain't none of them running no 3 or 4 pack.

 

[MarknTorrance]

How many games does he have, is he established - I'm guessing not as his starter rating was adjusted.


The fact is, his stats warranted a change in his starter rating and his stats then put him where he is. If he is under 200 games then it will work itself out. I wouldn't sweat it.

But see i disagree. These arent facts. He has played 30 or so games of league play. He wasnt the best player in the league. His fargo is now the second highest in the league! This is behind a guy who finished 2nd in singles before all this fargo stuff.

Again he was bumped up to 600. Then his league record moved him to 618. I could make the arguement that my 545 plus 18 would put him at 563. Close to what his top end I think is.

Again the difference? Platinum singles top 15 percent of entrys. Gold next 35. He isnt top 15 percent.

 

[DecentShot]

Take them all to the tight table at Mr. Lucky's and let them shoot it out.

 

[MarknTorrance]

Take them all to the tight table at Mr. Lucky's and let them shoot it out.

Do you play at Mr Luckys?

MarknTorrance

 

[Chili Palmer]

These bumps in rating would coincide with what happens in the APA correct? You are a 7/9? You would start as a 4ish and then got bumped to a 9 (in 9 ball). 630 for a 7/9 is accurate. I would also like to point out that while the Fargo Ratings themselves are accurate.. the descriptions FROM FargoRate seem exaggerated. I.e. Running a four pack and cashing in a regional. I watch lots of BCA matches of players just above 600...ain't none of them running no 3 or 4 pack.

I would agree the descriptions are off, I too have watched 600+ BCA players and you're right, they aren't running consecutive racks. As far as my rating goes, I gave up a while ago. I watch some 550 players and don't think I could play them heads up and I watch 600 plus players and would jump at the chance of playing them (if I gambled), so the question becomes - who's number is not right but in reality - people have good days and people have bad days.

How many games does he have, is he established - I'm guessing not as his starter rating was adjusted.


The fact is, his stats warranted a change in his starter rating and his stats then put him where he is. If he is under 200 games then it will work itself out. I wouldn't sweat it.

But see i disagree. These arent facts. He has played 30 or so games of league play. He wasnt the best player in the league. His fargo is now the second highest in the league! This is behind a guy who finished 2nd in singles before all this fargo stuff.

Again he was bumped up to 600. Then his league record moved him to 618. I could make the arguement that my 545 plus 18 would put him at 563. Close to what his top end I think is.

Again the difference? Platinum singles top 15 percent of entrys. Gold next 35. He isnt top 15 percent.

If he was moved to 600 then his stats say he was playing at a 600 level and unfortunately with 30 games in the system his rating will bounce around fairly easily, beat a 600+ and he'll go up, get beat by 400 and watch it drop.

I'm going to point back to the 200 games and being established. Your rating means nothing until you're established, let him get his 200 games in and see what happens. As mentioned above, people have good and bad days, if he only has 30 games in the system I would stop worrying about his FargoRate until he gets closer to 200.

 

[DecentShot]

Do you play at Mr Luckys?

MarknTorrance

I have. Good little pool room (hall maybe a little generous.) I've played everywhere down in our neck of the woods (that still exist). I was bummed when Dave had to sell Break Zone (although I prefer Luckys equipment by far, Diamond wasn't a thing back then.)

 

[MarknTorrance]

Thanks for all the responses. I will make one last point and then move on.

I agree his fargo rate well work itself out in time. Thats of course assuming this doesn't turn him off from BCA.

This is what I have a problem with. You dont play for 8 years. You come join a BCA league to go play singles. You are given a rating that puts pretty much smack in the middle of Gold division. You rating stays the same thru league. You enter with a 545. Then one day you look and you are 618. Now you are are more then likely platinum. This will be your vacation time. You have a chance at doing well in Gold. Not much chance and Platinum. Is it fair they changed it after you enter based on 30 or so league games?

Take care!

MarknTorrance

 

[JC]

Thanks for all the responses. I will make one last point and then move on.

I agree his fargo rate well work itself out in time. Thats of course assuming this doesn't turn him off from BCA.

This is what I have a problem with. You dont play for 8 years. You come join a BCA league to go play singles. You are given a rating that puts pretty much smack in the middle of Gold division. You rating stays the same thru league. You enter with a 545. Then one day you look and you are 618. Now you are are more then likely platinum. This will be your vacation time. You have a chance at doing well in Gold. Not much chance and Platinum. Is it fair they changed it after you enter based on 30 or so league games?

Take care!

MarknTorrance

Post a video of him playing and let us rate him

JC

 

[lorider]

Thanks for all the responses. I will make one last point and then move on.

I agree his fargo rate well work itself out in time. Thats of course assuming this doesn't turn him off from BCA.

This is what I have a problem with. You dont play for 8 years. You come join a BCA league to go play singles. You are given a rating that puts pretty much smack in the middle of Gold division. You rating stays the same thru league. You enter with a 545. Then one day you look and you are 618. Now you are are more then likely platinum. This will be your vacation time. You have a chance at doing well in Gold. Not much chance and Platinum. Is it fair they changed it after you enter based on 30 or so league games?

Take care!

MarknTorrance

It seems to me from reading your posts that the issue here is wanting fo be in the hold division where he feels he has a chance to be in the top 15% as fo being stuck in the middle of the pack in the platinum division. I am not trying to be critical of that mentality as its par for most pool players.

I was kind of in that situation in apa having qualified for 9 ball as a 5 and then just a few weeks before the tournament I was raised to a 6. I decided not to go as I knew I could not hang with established 6's. Now its 2 years later and I am an established 6 and feel I can be competitive if I so choose to qualify again.

As to Fargo ? Yea its going to be volatile until established and if the player you mention feels he cannot compete at his current rating it may be best to wait as I did until he is established before going to nationals. The case you describe fits my experience to a tee. I started as a 460 .....being an apa 5. I went up as high as 510 before finally settling in at my current 471 after 235 matches.

 

[Chili Palmer]

It seems to me from reading your posts that the issue here is wanting fo be in the hold division where he feels he has a chance to be in the top 15% as fo being stuck in the middle of the pack in the platinum division. I am not trying to be critical of that mentality as its par for most pool players.

I was kind of in that situation in apa having qualified for 9 ball as a 5 and then just a few weeks before the tournament I was raised to a 6. I decided not to go as I knew I could not hang with established 6's. Now its 2 years later and I am an established 6 and feel I can be competitive if I so choose to qualify again.

As to Fargo ? Yea its going to be volatile until established and if the player you mention feels he cannot compete at his current rating it may be best to wait as I did until he is established before going to nationals. The case you describe fits my experience to a tee. I started as a 460 .....being an apa 5. I went up as high as 510 before finally settling in at my current 471 after 235 matches.

I disagree with the waiting part. Just go into it knowing you're probably going to lose and then have the attitude of - If I'm going to lose I should try to learn something. I wouldn't miss the opportunity just because I didn't think I would win.


Having 30 games in the system and worrying about your FargoRate is like taking a shot of whiskey and expecting to be drunk.

And I get the part of hoping it doesn't turn him off to BCA.

When will he be playing a game/set/tournament that his FargRate will make a difference? Maybe he'll get another 30-60 games in and it will start to stabilize.

 

[lorider]

I disagree with the waiting part. Just go into it knowing you're probably going to lose and then have the attitude of - If I'm going to lose I should try to learn something. I wouldn't miss the opportunity just because I didn't think I would win.


Having 30 games in the system and worrying about your FargoRate is like taking a shot of whiskey and expecting to be drunk.

And I get the part of hoping it doesn't turn him off to BCA.

When will he be playing a game/set/tournament that his FargRate will make a difference? Maybe he'll get another 30-60 games in and it will start to stabilize.

I agree and I guess I need to clarify my stance. Having played masters I am not afraid to play any one at any handicap . Playing bcapl nationals is a little different than playing apa nationals as in bcapl your Fargo rate will go up or down according to how you play.

If I had chosen to go to nationals as a 6 I would be locked in at that level regardless of my actual playing ability or win / loss record. it did not personally matter to me as i figured I would eventually get to the level that I would be competitive as a 6 but it would not have been fair to my team mates for me to be losing matches as a 6 that I would have won as a 5 until I did get to where I was a competitive 6.....which I feel I am ...most days lol.

Edited to add that I did go back to a 5 just a fee weeks later...i actually fluctuated between a 5 and 6 at least 6/7 times for 2 years and have stayed a 6 for a year now .

 

[sixpack]

Thanks for all the responses. I will make one last point and then move on.

I agree his fargo rate well work itself out in time. Thats of course assuming this doesn't turn him off from BCA.

This is what I have a problem with. You dont play for 8 years. You come join a BCA league to go play singles. You are given a rating that puts pretty much smack in the middle of Gold division. You rating stays the same thru league. You enter with a 545. Then one day you look and you are 618. Now you are are more then likely platinum. This will be your vacation time. You have a chance at doing well in Gold. Not much chance and Platinum. Is it fair they changed it after you enter based on 30 or so league games?

Take care!

MarknTorrance

In Fargo ratings, player who is 100 points higher than another player is supposed to win twice as many games. So a 600 is expected to beat a 500 10-5 in a race to 10. Expected doesn’t mean will. Or even should. It just means over time that is what you would expect them to average.

Your player won 72% or 77% of his matches. Winning twice as many games would be around 66-67%. So he is MORE than 100 points better than the average player that he faced. If your league average is about 500, then 618 is almost exactly where he should be.

In my league I won 81% (26-6) of my games against what I thought was a pretty strong league - which I think should make me about 130 points above the average. Which I think is a little under 500. If it’s 450 then I’m right where I belong.

I watch the nationals and most players under 650 I would gamble with. Yet some around 550 or so I wouldn’t touch.

Odds are it’s my estimation of their ability that is off, not the system.

 

[Chili Palmer]

I agree and I guess I need to clarify my stance. Having played masters I am not afraid to play any one at any handicap . Playing bcapl nationals is a little different than playing apa nationals as in bcapl your Fargo rate will go up or down according to how you play.

If I had chosen to go to nationals as a 6 I would be locked in at that level regardless of my actual playing ability or win / loss record. it did not personally matter to me as i figured I would eventually get to the level that I would be competitive as a 6 but it would not have been fair to my team mates for me to be losing matches as a 6 that I would have won as a 5 until I did get to where I was a competitive 6.....which I feel I am ...most days lol.

Edited to add that I did go back to a 5 just a fee weeks later...i actually fluctuated between a 5 and 6 at least 6/7 times for 2 years and have stayed a 6 for a year now .

Roger that, the team aspect I totally get, we just went through something similar in APA last weekend.

 

[9BallKY]

I think a player has to pay his dues. Why should anyone expect to not play for 8 years, then play 30 games and be expecting to be put in a division where they have a chance at winning? That’s what wrong with pool everybody wants a chance to win or they don’t want to play. IMO he should play where they put him and give it time to work itself out.

For example I went to a handicap tournament yesterday at a place I had never played. I said put me down at-the highest rating. I got 4th. I was spotting some players the 6 out. I didn’t ask to be put in at a level below just so I had a chance to win. Just my 2 cents.

 

[MattPoland]

Threads like this about “a friend” always have more to the story. Something the OP was told and believed but wasn’t actually how it went down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Chili Palmer]

I think a player has to pay his dues. Why should anyone expect to not play for 8 years, then play 30 games and be expecting to be put in a division where they have a chance at winning? That’s what wrong with pool everybody wants a chance to win or they don’t want to play. IMO he should play where they put him and give it time to work itself out.

For example I went to a handicap tournament yesterday at a place I had never played. I said put me down at-the highest rating. I got 4th. I was spotting some players the 6 out. I didn’t ask to be put in at a level below just so I had a chance to win. Just my 2 cents.

I like your style.