Fargo Rating

[Jimmorrison]

Wow, that’s harsh. Almost takes away all hope. I thought a 100 point gap meant 2-1 . As in the 600 wins 10 and the 500 gets 5?

 

[easy-e]

Wow, that’s harsh. Almost takes away all hope. I thought a 100 point gap meant 2-1 . As in the 600 wins 10 and the 500 gets 5?

Mike was saying the odds of the lower player to win the set outright. On average he will only win half the games played, but a tenth of the sets played.

 

[Jimmorrison]

Thanks, yes. I reread his post, and realized my misinterpretation.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I like this chart better when looking for set odds.

 

[jason]

The idea of Fargo is great, but it's pretty frustrating when tournaments are now having a Fargo rating cap along with minimum robustness requirement. In certain area of the country, local tournaments don't report to Fargo so it's near impossible to achieve an established rating.

It's rather annoying when you have to go out of your way to try and build a Fargo rating, just to play in a specific tournament. I understand the goal is to level the playing field, but there will always be outliers.

The problem doesn't lie with Fargo, the problem lies with the tournament director and their rules of admission. Unfortunately, handicapping of any type is the real problem, but that is a double edge sword. In a perfect world, there are no handicaps and people play by the rules that were established with the game. In the real world, it is dog eat dog and everyone wants an advantage. Without handicaps, we just wouldn't have as many tournaments. Nobody would play for fear of never winning. There usually are not enough top players to compete in small towns. Even larger cities sometimes has the same problems. It is what it is.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

The problem doesn't lie with Fargo, the problem lies with the tournament director and their rules of admission. Unfortunately, handicapping of any type is the real problem, but that is a double edge sword. In a perfect world, there are no handicaps and people play by the rules that were established with the game. In the real world, it is dog eat dog and everyone wants an advantage. Without handicaps, we just wouldn't have as many tournaments. Nobody would play for fear of never winning. There usually are not enough top players to compete in small towns. Even larger cities sometimes has the same problems. It is what it is.

I remember tournaments having a wait list every week. People showed up very early to get in. No handicap and getting a high finish was admirable. A sense of pride for being in the top 5.

Now open tournaments are 10 players. Handicap ones get capped at 32 and the winner, after winning one game in a 1-7 race the winner hangs their head as they shake hands.
Strange times

 

[mikemosconi]

Mike was saying the odds of the lower player to win the set outright. On average he will only win half the games played, but a tenth of the sets played.

Well, this is what I was looking for actually- so a 600 playing a 500 - the 500 on average would win half games played- yet, so many tournaments I see have race to 7 and only 1 game on wire for each 50 point difference- A 600 to 500 Fargo match is a 7 to 5 match at many Fargo handicapped tournaments. today- the 500 has little chance according to the Fargo estimates- the 500 needs a 7 game to 4 game race to make it closer to an even match, with the 600 Fargo still having an advantage.

Why use Fargo ratings for handicapped tournaments if the TD almost never sets up the handicaps closer to even races? This has been a problem for pool for many, many years- and why so many folks drop out of the game.

Much more evenly handicapped tournaments would have 500 to 600 Fargos playing 7-4 and 500 to 700 Fargos playing 7-2--AND, according to Fargo stats, the higher Fargo player still has a slight advantage to win. I doubt that we will see this though.

 

[jason]

I remember tournaments having a wait list every week. People showed up very early to get in. No handicap and getting a high finish was admirable. A sense of pride for being in the top 5.

Now open tournaments are 10 players. Handicap ones get capped at 32 and the winner, after winning one game in a 1-7 race the winner hangs their head as they shake hands.
Strange times

I have to ask how long ago this was. Pre 90's, there wasn't that much information available on the players. "Roadplayers" have become a thing of the past for the most part. I remember my friend checking the license plates in the parking lots. Out of state license could mean a road player in the house. Today, unless you're under 21, you're probably known and tracked. My point is people were a lot more willing to mix it up in the past. Hustlers hid and suckers gambled.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

I have to ask how long ago this was. Pre 90's, there wasn't that much information available on the players. "Roadplayers" have become a thing of the past for the most part. I remember my friend checking the license plates in the parking lots. Out of state license could mean a road player in the house. Today, unless you're under 21, you're probably known and tracked. My point is people were a lot more willing to mix it up in the past. Hustlers hid and suckers gambled.

Mid 90 to mid aughts. There was a mix of league players, gamblers, and tournament players. Many were a mix of the 3.

In the tournaments, finishes at the top of the heap was something to strive for. The very best usually kept out of the tournaments in favor of gambling.

These were the type to be on the road part of the year or had deep pockets/ were horses and preferably kept their speed somewhat hidden in favor of good gambling matches.

The tournaments were league graduates and/ or aspiring road players.

I guess my point was, working your way to the top of the heap was a driving force to get better. Learning to take the losses on the chin. When you won, you did it on your own merit, it was earned even. Nobody could say shit. Everyone gave you your respect for getting there.

At the very top, even without the Internet/ cell phones, it was a small community and everyone pretty much knew who was in "the club".

 

[jason]

Mid 90 to mid aughts. There was a mix of league players, gamblers, and tournament players. Many were a mix of the 3.

In the tournaments, finishes at the top of the heap was something to strive for. The very best usually kept out of the tournaments in favor of gambling.

These were the type to be on the road part of the year or had deep pockets/ were horses and preferably kept their speed somewhat hidden in favor of good gambling matches.

The tournaments were league graduates and/ or aspiring road players.

I guess my point was, working your way to the top of the heap was a driving force to get better. Learning to take the losses on the chin. When you won, you did it on your own merit, it was earned even. Nobody could say shit. Everyone gave you your respect for getting there.

At the very top, even without the Internet/ cell phones, it was a small community and everyone pretty much knew who was in "the club".

Gambling was still solid in the 90's. It was a fun time for me. I did pretty well and had a blast. Pool is a small community, especially locally and the higher you get. I knew some players that wouldn't get their picture taken if they won something in Vegas. They didn't want to be on the radar. The true player could sneak into town, clock the lower players and take them down. Move on to the next town, rinse and repeat. Change names and appearances, stick and jab and keep moving. You couldn't move up too quick or you would blow your cover. Playing the best in town should be done quietly if possible. That's where the steersmen came into play. Again, all that is gone with the internet and league players aren't much of gamblers these days.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

Gambling was still solid in the 90's. It was a fun time for me. I did pretty well and had a blast. Pool is a small community, especially locally and the higher you get. I knew some players that wouldn't get their picture taken if they won something in Vegas. They didn't want to be on the radar. The true player could sneak into town, clock the lower players and take them down. Move on to the next town, rinse and repeat. Change names and appearances, stick and jab and keep moving. You couldn't move up too quick or you would blow your cover. Playing the best in town should be done quietly if possible. That's where the steersmen came into play. Again, all that is gone with the internet and league players aren't much of gamblers these days.

Agreed. There was way more gambling amongst all speeds then. Once you got good enough for someone to want to back you they usually made sure you stayed out of the tournaments.

Handicaps have always had a place in the sport. In gambling and in leagues.

Tournaments were a place where you had to play even. I just miss the king of the hill aspect and watching people strive their way to the top of them regularly. Looking up at the names of the top finishers and wanting/ working to be in the group. The long lists of players wanting to get in and test their metal.

 

[Coos Cues]

You've been around forever (I mean that as a compliment). Have you ever seen a player get better or worse, that was not a kid coming up, or a 60 year old going down? I know I never have.

I took my firsts pool instruction at 50 years old and improved considerably. This was pre fargo but I believe it was in the 50-70 point range as a guess.

And am again plateaued at 64 yo.

 

[Cuedup]

I imagine less disposable income and 4 decades of squeezing trillions of dollars from the middle class might have something to do with gambling not being as prevalent as in the past.

Probably.

 

[easy-e]

Well, this is what I was looking for actually- so a 600 playing a 500 - the 500 on average would win half games played- yet, so many tournaments I see have race to 7 and only 1 game on wire for each 50 point difference- A 600 to 500 Fargo match is a 7 to 5 match at many Fargo handicapped tournaments. today- the 500 has little chance according to the Fargo estimates- the 500 needs a 7 game to 4 game race to make it closer to an even match, with the 600 Fargo still having an advantage.

Why use Fargo ratings for handicapped tournaments if the TD almost never sets up the handicaps closer to even races? This has been a problem for pool for many, many years- and why so many folks drop out of the game.

Much more evenly handicapped tournaments would have 500 to 600 Fargos playing 7-4 and 500 to 700 Fargos playing 7-2--AND, according to Fargo stats, the higher Fargo player still has a slight advantage to win. I doubt that we will see this though.

My area has tons of tournaments set up with the "50 points per game" handicap. They seem to draw tons of players! My only gripe is that most of them are capped, so they exclude the same 10-20 players usually. I don't play too much lately, so it's not that big of a deal.

 

[mikemosconi]

My area has tons of tournaments set up with the "50 points per game" handicap. They seem to draw tons of players! My only gripe is that most of them are capped, so they exclude the same 10-20 players usually. I don't play too much lately, so it's not that big of a deal.

I play in them too - I just enjoy competing - I never complain to the TD - I don’t do it for the money either - as long as the tournament is run well and the venue is pleasant and the players are not jerks - I am happy!

 

[mikemosconi]

I imagine less disposable income and 4 decades of squeezing trillions of dollars from the middle class might have something to do with gambling not being as prevalent as in the past.

Probably.

No comment on the politics, but every tournament that I attend with a Calcutta - I see lots of money being bid up - totaling up to thousands in a 32 person event - that is a lot of disposable income!!