Ferrule cracking diagnosis

[qbilder]

What is your reasoning behind that? Do you feel that epoxy is too thick, or is there other reasons?

I feel epoxy is too permanent. Ferrules crack, and as such are expendable components. Whether anybody likes to admit it or not, ferrules are expendable. Otherwise, we'd not be having this discussion. Capped ferrules are significantly more durable and require replacement much less often, but IMO at the cost of feel/playability. Debating performance & feel is for another topic, but there are many of us who prefer to have the tip glued directly to the wood. I personally will choose playability over durability any day, so I accept the fact that I will be changing a few ferrules.

When that time comes, it's nice to be able to put the lathe in reverse & lightly squeeze the ferrule with a leather strap. When it gets warm enough the glue will release its bond & the ferrule will thread off. The tenon is in tact & threads are clean. The new ferrule threads right on & it's an easy job. If I were to use high grade epoxy, i'd be cutting the ferrule off & doing my very best to re-machine the threads exactly over the original threads. I cannot even begin to describe how difficult that is, so most generally it would be cutting the tenon off & replacing it. I'd much rather the ferrule replacement not involve tenon replacement. I prefer to keep the original continuity of the shaft in tact if at all possible. Using yellow or white glue allows that. Epoxy doesn't.

Please notice I refer to threaded ferrules, not slip on. For slip/press fit, epoxy most likely is the best choice because it's the strongest glue in a non-clamped application. I don't personally bite off on the legitimacy of that type of install, but I don't have to worry about it because it's not on my cues. We all have our reasons (or we should) for the things we do. Folks who buy my cues know to expect a hard, crisp, lively hit. If you like a more mellow feel, then a builder who is known for that type of hit would be who you buy a cue from. Naturally, I will be replacing more ferrules than the guy who makes a softer hitting cue. It is what it is & I am well aware of it. I could certainly alter my techniques & materials to tame things down so the ferrules won't crack, but then I'm defeating the entire premise my cues are founded on. Simply put, some like it fast & hard while some prefer cuddling. When you're rough, expect some injuries. Comes with the territory, especially with high level players.

 

[Kim Bye]

I feel epoxy is too permanent. Ferrules crack, and as such are expendable components. Whether anybody likes to admit it or not, ferrules are expendable. Otherwise, we'd not be having this discussion. Capped ferrules are significantly more durable and require replacement much less often, but IMO at the cost of feel/playability. Debating performance & feel is for another topic, but there are many of us who prefer to have the tip glued directly to the wood. I personally will choose playability over durability any day, so I accept the fact that I will be changing a few ferrules.

When that time comes, it's nice to be able to put the lathe in reverse & lightly squeeze the ferrule with a leather strap. When it gets warm enough the glue will release its bond & the ferrule will thread off. The tenon is in tact & threads are clean. The new ferrule threads right on & it's an easy job. If I were to use high grade epoxy, i'd be cutting the ferrule off & doing my very best to re-machine the threads exactly over the original threads. I cannot even begin to describe how difficult that is, so most generally it would be cutting the tenon off & replacing it. I'd much rather the ferrule replacement not involve tenon replacement. I prefer to keep the original continuity of the shaft in tact if at all possible. Using yellow or white glue allows that. Epoxy doesn't.

Please notice I refer to threaded ferrules, not slip on. For slip/press fit, epoxy most likely is the best choice because it's the strongest glue in a non-clamped application. I don't personally bite off on the legitimacy of that type of install, but I don't have to worry about it because it's not on my cues. We all have our reasons (or we should) for the things we do. Folks who buy my cues know to expect a hard, crisp, lively hit. If you like a more mellow feel, then a builder who is known for that type of hit would be who you buy a cue from. Naturally, I will be replacing more ferrules than the guy who makes a softer hitting cue. It is what it is & I am well aware of it. I could certainly alter my techniques & materials to tame things down so the ferrules won't crack, but then I'm defeating the entire premise my cues are founded on. Simply put, some like it fast & hard while some prefer cuddling. When you're rough, expect some injuries. Comes with the territory, especially with high level players.

Thanks, that was very interesting. Where do you stand on Gorilla glue for ferrules?

 

[qbilder]

Thanks, that was very interesting. Where do you stand on Gorilla glue for ferrules?

Same as epoxy. I tried it for a while & it holds just fine. The problem is replacing a ferrule. Such a PIA when the glue won't break free. I know it seems counter intuitive using a glue so that it WILL break free, but it does have purpose. Like I stated earlier, the threads are what create the structural bond. The glue merely acts as a thread lock. If you have clean threads & a good fit, that ferrule isn't going to loosen up or come off. I have tried epoxy, wood glue, elmers school glue, poly glue, cyano, all of them. None made the cue hit any better or worse, harder or softer. None failed, either. The only difference worth note would be that epoxy left a dark seam. All the others had clean seams. Aside from that, only the yellow & white glues made for easy replacement.

 

[Kim Bye]

Same as epoxy. I tried it for a while & it holds just fine. The problem is replacing a ferrule. Such a PIA when the glue won't break free. I know it seems counter intuitive using a glue so that it WILL break free, but it does have purpose. Like I stated earlier, the threads are what create the structural bond. The glue merely acts as a thread lock. If you have clean threads & a good fit, that ferrule isn't going to loosen up or come off. I have tried epoxy, wood glue, elmers school glue, poly glue, cyano, all of them. None made the cue hit any better or worse, harder or softer. None failed, either. The only difference worth note would be that epoxy left a dark seam. All the others had clean seams. Aside from that, only the yellow & white glues made for easy replacement.

I see that, but it seems to me that much of the reason you use glues like titebond is that it makes it easy to install a new ferrule. I take it you prefer uncapped ferrules?
I have experimented with capped vs uncapped and I don`t really notice that huge a difference. My thinking is to make the most solid ferrule I can, wich means capped and with enough wall thickness to prevent splitting. I find finer threads like 18TPI works better than 14TPI
So if the ferrule is machined right and capped, it will last a really long time and it`s fine to use epoxy. I dont get yellow rings on my ferrules when using epoxy, I wipe between the shaft and ferrule before i do the last turn to seat the ferrule.

 

[JoeyInCali]

IMO, epoxy has no place anywhere near a threaded ferrule. I don't recommend anything, but if I were to do so, it would be threaded melamine with Titebond-II wood glue. Is there any particular reason this isn't a good idea?

Wood and melamine are two very dissimilar materials .
The melamine glue was designed for that .
And that good epoxy does a much better job in bonding dissimilar surfaces compared to Titebond II wood glue .
Mechanical bond is also at it's best in very fine thread . But, as we use wood, we don't use super fine threads .
So, the glue bond is still a factor in holding ferrules in place. With the case of epoxy, it does it well and also actually does well displacing the material in that space . After all melamine or micarta or other hard synthetics are either epoxy or resin materials.
Melamine, nylon, ivory or Juma are too fine of a material for wood glue to me .

 

[qbilder]

I see that, but it seems to me that much of the reason you use glues like titebond is that it makes it easy to install a new ferrule. I take it you prefer uncapped ferrules?

I wouldn't say it makes the install easier. Any glue is about the same amount of labor, except epoxy which may take a few moments longer. The reason for titebond is because it makes the replacement easy. Replacing a tenon & machining new threads is a much more inclusive job than simply unscrewing the old ferrule & screwing on the new. And yes, I do prefer uncapped. I like for the tip to be in contact with the shaft wood. When you put a cap between them, you essentially allow the ferrule material to dictate much of the feel & hit. While that works well for some guys, it's not my cup of tea.

I have experimented with capped vs uncapped and I don`t really notice that huge a difference. My thinking is to make the most solid ferrule I can, wich means capped and with enough wall thickness to prevent splitting. I find finer threads like 18TPI works better than 14TPI

I do notice a difference. The amount of difference depends much on the material, wall thickness, cap thickness, and void between tenon and cap. Hard melamine makes the least difference, and as the materials get softer, the more noticeable the difference becomes. Case in point is XTC. It's a very soft material but if you have a 3/8" tenon and no cap, the cue will still hit quite pure. That's because the ferrule is acting only as a reinforcement sleeve to protect the wood from splintering, and plays a rather passive role. When you cap the ferrule and/or use smaller diameter tenons, or longer ferrules, then you are changing the purpose from a passive component & giving it a role that critically factors in the cue's hit, feel, and performance. Again, I prefer the ferrule to have as minimal impact on playability as possible. There's no way to completely eliminate the ferrule's role without eliminating the ferrule, but you can get close.

So if the ferrule is machined right and capped, it will last a really long time and it`s fine to use epoxy. I dont get yellow rings on my ferrules when using epoxy, I wipe between the shaft and ferrule before i do the last turn to seat the ferrule.

Yeah, if the ferrule is capped and you do an adequate job machining, the ferrule will last a long time. If it's a thin tenon & the cap is 1/4" thick, the ferrule will likely last forever. That's regardless of the glue you choose. As for the glue line, much of that can be avoided simply by using a sharp bit when facing the shoulder. You want to cut the wood, not tear it. That can only be done with a razor sharp bit. For sh!ts & giggles, machine a tenon & face off the shoulder, then use a wet wheel to sharpen a HSS bit & use it to machine & face another tenon. They will look identical until you look through a magnifying glass & see how much cleaner the second tenon is. It's AMAZING the difference you'll see.

 

[whammo57]

What glue should he have used ?

I have never used anything but 5 minute epoxy on ferrules ............. threaded, unthreaded, capped , uncapped.............. 5 minute epoxy with a drop of white india ink to prevent a brown glue line..............

works perfectly for me.................

I have had a few crack but they were 1/2 in tube ferrules and the shooter was a hammer mechanic.................. I still had to turn them off and they did not release even a little.... the glue held until the last bit was cut off...............

not slamming anyone........... just stating my personal experience

Kim

 

[qbilder]

Wood and melamine are two very dissimilar materials .
The melamine glue was designed for that .
And that good epoxy does a much better job in bonding dissimilar surfaces compared to Titebond II wood glue .
Mechanical bond is also at it's best in very fine thread . But, as we use wood, we don't use super fine threads .
So, the glue bond is still a factor in holding ferrules in place. With the case of epoxy, it does it well and also actually does well displacing the material in that space . After all melamine or micarta or other hard synthetics are either epoxy or resin materials.
Melamine, nylon, ivory or Juma are too fine of a material for wood glue to me .

That's precisely my point. The glue doesn't bond the melamine so permanently that it requires machining to remove. It does, however, act as a substrate to dramatically improve the friction, which enhances the mechanical bond. Hence the thread lock effect. The reason you prefer epoxy is the same reason I don't. The reason you don't like wood glue is the same reason I do.

 

[qbilder]

I have had a few crack but they were 1/2 in tube ferrules and the shooter was a hammer mechanic.................. I still had to turn them off and they did not release even a little.... the glue held until the last bit was cut off...............

That specifically is why I don't like epoxy for threaded ferrules. In your case it worked fine because the ferrule could be cut off & tenon still intact. If it were a threaded tenon, then what? It would have likely meant replacing the tenon.

 

[JoeyInCali]

That specifically is why I don't like epoxy for threaded ferrules. In your case it worked fine because the ferrule could be cut off & tenon still intact. If it were a threaded tenon, then what? It would have likely meant replacing the tenon.

A good repairman can chase those threads.
Engage the thread lever, move the compound so the live cutter is on one thread. Go in around .030" a side .
Spin manually, burn 10 calories. Clean with a small triangle file on high speed.

Good epoxy won't give either.
Now, those threads are actually stronger than pure wood threads.
Saw my late mentor do it countless times on repair jobs and I learned it from him.


Now, if you have a portable lathe, that's a different case .

 

[whammo57]

That specifically is why I don't like epoxy for threaded ferrules. In your case it worked fine because the ferrule could be cut off & tenon still intact. If it were a threaded tenon, then what? It would have likely meant replacing the tenon.

I turn the old ferrule off and chase the threads. It works ok. Wooden tenon threads are not machine screw threads and don't really need to be. If they provide a mechanical bond they are ok even if they look a little ragged...

Kim

 

[qbilder]

A good repairman can chase those threads.
Engage the thread lever, move the compound so the live cutter is on one thread. Go in around .030" a side .

Easier said than done. Doesn't take much off to one side or the other to destroy the threads, and chances are that gear isn't going to line up with the way the shaft is chucked. When I was a kid learning to cut threads, I was taught to engage the gear in the off position, and chuck the piece up with the threads and single point aligned in resting position. Works great ....... until you factor the run-out of a router & tool deflection of the bit. You're a far better machinist than I if you can chase threads with live tooling. I get it right sometimes due to luck. Usually not. Sounds good on the forum but isn't that easy breezy in the shop.

 

[MVPCues]

A good repairman can chase those threads.
Engage the thread lever, move the compound so the live cutter is on one thread. Go in around .030" a side .
Spin manually, burn 10 calories. Clean with a small triangle file on high speed.

Good epoxy won't give either.
Now, those threads are actually stronger than pure wood threads.
Saw my late mentor do it countless times on repair jobs and I learned it from him.


Now, if you have a portable lathe, that's a different case .

I completely agree with this except there is no need for a small triangle file, at least not when I do it. The threads come out as good as they originally were, or better (as you alluded to) since the epoxy has filled in any original chip out and now remains in the threads. It is easy, it just takes a couple of intermediate cuts to dial in the compound position perfectly.

Eric is right also though, because there are a lot of guys that don't have live threading capability (for whatever reason). I think not having live threading capability is a disadvantage, but it doesn't disqualify people from being "good repairmen" in my eyes. Without it, trying to pick out the chunks of epoxy or using a tenon threader to be able to screw on the replacement ferrule is often a losing proposition in terms of quality of threads that will remain. I think always assuming the tenon will have to be cut off and a new one installed is an exaggeration, but I completely understand Eric's point about using wood glue for threaded ferrules.

 

[MVPCues]

Easier said than done. Doesn't take much off to one side or the other to destroy the threads, and chances are that gear isn't going to line up with the way the shaft is chucked. When I was a kid learning to cut threads, I was taught to engage the gear in the off position, and chuck the piece up with the threads and single point aligned in resting position. Works great ....... until you factor the run-out of a router & tool deflection of the bit. You're a far better machinist than I if you can chase threads with live tooling. I get it right sometimes due to luck. Usually not. Sounds good on the forum but isn't that easy breezy in the shop.

I don't consider myself a good machinist, but I have never destroyed any threads while chasing existing ones during a repair. If you take a couple of intermediate shallow cuts while dialing in the compound, you can be off quite a bit on your initial placement and never touch wood. A visor that offers a little magnification helps.

As for the gear not being lined up with the way the shaft is chucked, that is what the compound is for. My last adjustment with the compound for the last cut to full depth is usually only .001-.002 travel.

 

[qbilder]

If you take a couple of intermediate shallow cuts while dialing in the compound, you can be off quite a bit on your initial placement and never touch wood. A visor that offers a little magnification helps.

That's actually pretty clever. I had never really considered doing that, though frankly I don't have extensive experience replacing ferrules. My lathe is set up with the router dialed in to the thread depth, and I don't change it. I'm not a repairman so the only ferrules I repair are on my cues, and that's not very often. If it were something I did more than once every 2-3 years, I'd probably be doing exactly as you describe.

 

[MVPCues]

That's actually pretty clever. I had never really considered doing that, though frankly I don't have extensive experience replacing ferrules. My lathe is set up with the router dialed in to the thread depth, and I don't change it. I'm not a repairman so the only ferrules I repair are on my cues, and that's not very often. If it were something I did more than once every 2-3 years, I'd probably be doing exactly as you describe.

Ah. That explains it. It is nice to have dedicated setups.

 

[ratcues]

This probably will not help but in all of my experiences but I;

-have never seen an absolute, infallible, method to any procedure in cue building/repairing.

-have never seen the perfect adhesive.

-have never had to tint expo because of my 'perfect' installation procedure.

 

[JoeyInCali]

This probably will not help but in all of my experiences but I;

-have never seen an absolute, infallible, method to any procedure in cue building/repairing.

-have never seen the perfect adhesive.

-have never had to tint expo because of my 'perfect' installation procedure.

Wait, you don't believe in " I've done hundreds and never had one failure"?

 

[ratcues]

Wait, you don't believe in " I've done hundreds and never had one failure"?

I can only tell you what I know from experience. I have done thousands upon thousands and I have failures. I've seen cues from the best of the best fail.



Edit; Even IF (and that is a big if), a builder can never account for what the player puts the cue through. Temp and humidity changes affect dissimilar materials...well....differently. Wood does not expand the same as a melamine or plastic. The best glues cannot fight physics.

 

[Murray Tucker]

Threaded ferrules are probably the only place 5 minute epoxy is suitable to use on a cue. Since its bond is weak a little heat and the ferrule unscrews clean much like wood glue.

I use Titebond on linen and ivory and 5 min on all others.