Ferrule pliers?

I understand the point perfectly well, and can't speak for everyone, but I'm really not doing what I would consider twisting the tenon at all. Just Simply snugging It up a hair, only difference Is I have used those on ocasion instead of My fingers, but the amount of force is the same. Infact sometimes I do only use My fingers. Besides I can feel It if It starts to twist the tenon, and could'nt twisting also be the result of the faces not matching up perfect? Mine seem to bottom out well before that takes place, because I turn the nose of the tenon, to fit the cap perfectly, so they bottom out as close as I can get them at the same time, but if it was to bottom out too soon, and has to be forced on at the end of the threads, then ofcoarse, It's gonna twist tenon before the faces meet anyway, even If it's not enough to see, because for me it really comes down to feel. I have had no issues either way, and in no ways that I could tell has It effected the play of a cue in a negative way, nor have I had one snap off. I can certainly understand the point though, and aggree about over doing It, because I have replaced tenons on quite a few other makes that snapped off at the shoulder, and that could have been a partial result of over tightening/ twisting the tenon, or improper machining, but this could apply to alot of things that require a good since of feel IMHO. My ferrules usually fit well enough that I could tighten as much as I wanted, and It may break the shaft shaft before snapping the tenon, or atleast It would seem that way LOL (famous last words), but this would not be standard practice for me anyhow, as I'm well aware of the issue mentioned, and have put alittle thought into to machining things to account for that.;) Still yet I aggree that this is an issue that exists, and is something to think about:)

Hope Everyone had a nice 4th:)

Greg
 
Hi Greg, you have good points to what you have said. However, in my opinion, using any kind of tool you don't have as much feel or control over what your doing using tools. You have a better feel with your hands and fingers. With tools, one could over tighten very easily, because of the extra leverage,[lenght of tools],as pliers may have. Kind of like surgical gloves, the natural feels of things, is best. I personally have installed thousands of ferrules and have yet to twist the tenon to tight, by hand. If your good at machining parts, no need for tools. Hand or finger tight is, tight enough. Why use pliers or any sort of tool, if you can spin the parts on with your hand? No need..
Whatever works for you, friend.
blud
 
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Cuedog said:
The decision to use pliers is completely up to the individual.

It is my belief that if you are experiencing excess gouging with the teeth of the pliers, that you are running your lathe at unnecessary speeds. If you are looking to install the ferrule quickly, that can still be accomplished at a slow speed giving you enough time to remove the pliers once reaching the end of your threads. All scratches at that point, will be shallow enough that they will be removed during the sizing process and won't effect the finished product.

No need to torque it.

Gene
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Hi Gene, I totally disagree with your methods. Not trying to start a war, [PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT], but I, do things in a differant way. First off, I do not use my lathe to spin ferrules on. I do this by hand. FEELING WHAT YOUR DOING IS MOST IMPORTANT, installing parts of any kind........I just take my time and make sure it's not twisting the tenon, and it's just tight enough, for a great fit..

It's impossible to get the same tightness everytime with machinery as you have explained......

Gouging the surface with pliers, is not good. No need for this. First off, it shows your using the wrong tools and methods. Why use tools when it's no trouble at all to spin the ferrule on by hand. A proper fit will allow you to do just that, spin on by hand.
Blud
 
blud said:
Hi Gene, I totally disagree with your methods. Not trying to start a war, [PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT], but I, do things in a differant way. First off, I do not use my lathe to spin ferrules on. I do this by hand. FEELING WHAT YOUR DOING IS MOST IMPORTANT, installing parts of any kind........I just take my time and make sure it's not twisting the tenon, and it's just tight enough, for a great fit..

Cuedog:
No war here...just a discussion of preferences. I understand that.

I agree with you that "FEELING WHAT YOUR DOING IS MOST IMPORTANT". However, I'm sure you will agree that there are many vocations that use tools in lieu of their hands and they develop a sensitive feel for accuracy.
Why would this be any different?



It's impossible to get the same tightness everytime with machinery as you have explained......

Gouging the surface with pliers, is not good. No need for this. First off, it shows your using the wrong tools and methods. Why use tools when it's no trouble at all to spin the ferrule on by hand. A proper fit will allow you to do just that, spin on by hand.
Blud

Cuedog:
Once again, we agree here. Gouging is NOT good, but I believe I indicated that my method causes a scratch or two easily removed in the sizing process. Using pliers simply allows me to keep moving instead of cleaning up excess adhesive from my hand and a quick on and off of the switch, provides just enough power to advance the ferrule.
Each to his own Mr. Blud. It seems you and I agree for the most part.
Click to expand...

I'm sure someone has gotten something from this thread.

Gene
 
Cuedog said:
The decision to use pliers is completely up to the individual.

It is my belief that if you are experiencing excess gouging with the teeth of the pliers, that you are running your lathe at unnecessary speeds. If you are looking to install the ferrule quickly, that can still be accomplished at a slow speed giving you enough time to remove the pliers once reaching the end of your threads. All scratches at that point, will be shallow enough that they will be removed during the sizing process and won't effect the finished product.

No need to torque it.

Gene
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I don't really use pliers installing my ferrules as I have a small triangle file which I use to file down the wood threads a little to make the ferrule spin smoothly.
I can see why some would use it if using a 5-minute epoxy. No need to gouge the ferrule as you mentioned.
I don't believe in hammered-on ferrules or joint collars or buttcaps but to each his own.
 
ferrules

Cuedog said:
I'm sure someone has gotten something from this thread.

Gene
Click to expand...
Gene, think about this situation, if as you say, the pliers cause a little scaring, small scraps, your bound to be applying to much pressure with the tool and therefore, causeing the tenon to twist........If it dosen't scar or mar, it's OK, other wise your stretching and twisting the ferrule.

I not only teach cue making, but after so many years, I do know pliers are not the correct way, it should be done. I would never teach a cuemaker that method.......NEVER.......

NO, I don't have all the answers, but know for a fact my friend, scaring or maring the ferrule causes things to twist and stretch. No need for that added pressure.
Why use a tool when all you need to do is spin it on,by hand and you can be assured that no twisting or scarping has been done....It's even faster than using tools that can be mis-placed.......Less than 10 seconds by hand and your done, and done correctly.
blud
 
blud said:
Gene, think about this situation, if as you say, the pliers cause a little scaring, small scraps, your bound to be applying to much pressure with the tool and therefore, causeing the tenon to twist........If it dosen't scar or mar, it's OK, other wise your stretching and twisting the ferrule.

I not only teach cue making, but after so many years, I do know pliers are not the correct way, it should be done. I would never teach a cuemaker that method.......NEVER.......

NO, I don't have all the answers, but know for a fact my friend, scaring or maring the ferrule causes things to twist and stretch. No need for that added pressure.
Why use a tool when all you need to do is spin it on,by hand and you can be assured that no twisting or scarping has been done....It's even faster than using tools that can be mis-placed.......Less than 10 seconds by hand and your done, and done correctly.
blud
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Blud, what's your opinion on cuemakers who test ferrules' durability by using pliers and gripping the sides of the ferrule till it breaks?
 
blud said:
Gene, think about this situation, if as you say, the pliers cause a little scaring, small scraps, your bound to be applying to much pressure with the tool and therefore, causeing the tenon to twist........If it dosen't scar or mar, it's OK, other wise your stretching and twisting the ferrule.

I not only teach cue making, but after so many years, I do know pliers are not the correct way, it should be done. I would never teach a cuemaker that method.......NEVER.......

NO, I don't have all the answers, but know for a fact my friend, scaring or maring the ferrule causes things to twist and stretch. No need for that added pressure.
Why use a tool when all you need to do is spin it on,by hand and you can be assured that no twisting or scarping has been done....It's even faster than using tools that can be mis-placed.......Less than 10 seconds by hand and your done, and done correctly.
blud
Click to expand...
"Scaring, small scraps"? In my opinion, that would be defined as gouging. I said nothing of the sort is produced by my method.

The only thing left for me to say is, you're right Mr. B. For what it's worth, I'd rather agree to disagree on this one. But, that wouldn't be right either. I basically agree with almost everything you say including not teaching this method to novices. Just as I wouldn't teach them how to trim a new tip using a blade. I wouldn't teach them how to stop the chuck from turning when shutting down the lathe, by using their hand. Etc, etc.

There are many things that are done by machinist types everyday that are either unsafe practices or methods of assembly that don't comply with mainstream procedures. That finished product is still produced on a very high level and is sound.

I am more than confident that the integrity of my tenons is not compromised by my chosen technique.

Gene
 
LOL, this is some funny stuff that's this is such a issue of a topic:p .

Ok guys pretty simple here, not worth the argument really, but in the wrong hands It may not be the best way I will admitt.

Obviously I understand this can be done with the pliers and a good since of feel. Blud thank You for understanding My point, and seeing the difference. let Me first say it's good to see you posting on here again. I'm sure at some point back when you were on here alot, I probably picked a few things up from You, and i know you have been at this alot longer then i, and helped many people start out along the way. Dick, I usually trust his judgement, as I can't think of one time He steered me wrong with advice. Joey sometimes jumps on the band wagon JK:D , altough I usually have most of the same likes and dislikes as him, and have received good info from Him as well, so I looked at this from another angle. I'm pretty set in My ways with most basic repairs, as that's where most of My experience lies, so I may come off as more set in My ways with that side of things. Builds I have some preferences, but have been limited on some capibilities in the past, so I'm way more open to that.

I may have not looked at this from another angle that I see now. As I mentioned no problems so far the way I do it, and I honestly feel as If I have a good feel for it, only thing i can maybe compare it to is someone saying a cue feels like an extention of their arm, but thinking from a mechanical angle, I can remember tightening a bolt pattern up with a pullbar many of times, then putting the torque wrench on there to see how close I came without the aid of It. Usually I would be pretty close, but never were all of them dead on without the aid of that torque wrench to verify, some would be and others would just be close. Now I can see where finger tight maybe a safer bet, so it's possible I'm just set in My ways or another is it could be a bad habit. the reason I say this is because Joey said something that may have sparked a thought. possible I just got in the habit or picked it up from someone else early on or had some tight fitters early on, It may have become more of a habit then a nessesity, and have just stuck with it all this time, but as I mentioned I've had no issues. I don't have to use them, My threads will spin on By hand no problem.

As far as glue I don't use 5 minute on ferrules at all, I use titebond for screw ons, but will admitt I still prefer 2 ton for slip ferrules, and have'nt had to replace on yet. Yes it takes atleast 2 days, but most people are willing to give me that time, and i don't remember having to replace one, unless the ferrule material was junk. I do not apply so much pressure that it cracks the ferrel either when I do use pliers, and the whole reason I use a piece of leather is so I don't mar the ferrule even in the slightest bit. I do not hammer ferrules on, why do that If faced to the bore, and the tenon is sized correctly?I don't claim to be a wizzard, anf there's tons of thing i can still use some lessons on, but I'm atleast smart enough to know that can split some ferrules and lead to other cans of worms;) :D . I know the difference, just the same as I do when it comes to the right amount with screw ons. There's so much as too loose and too snug when machining this stuff, and that is one thing I feel I have learned well when it comes to this area of discusion, though I admitt some was from the old school way of hard knocks. Only so much can be learned from word of mouth, the other comes from hands on, or as an apprientice. Oh also I do not screw the ferrules on under power, that may be an important element in why Have a good feel for the tenon twisting. It's all done by hand as far as that goes.

Keep in mind I'm seeing this both ways, and to anyone not knowing better I may even recomend the finger tight method. I'm not saying do as I do, only that It has worked for Me up until now, and why fix what's not broke. if I were to see personal proof of My own work that shows otherwise, well then I may change My ways, because i'm always trying to improve. As I mentioned before I certainly understand the point, and feel It's a valid one, so no disaggreement out of me on that, infact I will keep the discussion in mind, cause you never know, I may change My ways on this.:) To be honest I probably do hand tighen them close to 50% of the time, so kind of a non issue to me either way. Hope that Doesn't that make me a liberal?:p :D

Greg
 
My opinion, is as was a few years ago, the ferrule in question, I did apply VERY little pressure to the caped end and side of the ferrule, and it crumbled. Real ivory will not crumble with the same amount of pressure....

blud
 
You Guys got it all wrong!!!

The secret to a tight ferrule is a six foot pipe wrench with a HARD ROCK MAPLE handle. The maple handle provides the needed feel for precision tightening. But must stress again HARD ROCK. Ooops... Did I mention straight grain is important too.:D :D

Dennis :D
 
searingcue said:
The secret to a tight ferrule is a six foot pipe wrench with a HARD ROCK MAPLE handle. The maple handle provides the needed feel for precision tightening. But must stress again HARD ROCK. Ooops... Did I mention straight grain is important too.:D :D

Dennis :D
Click to expand...

Dennis don't spread wrong info. I know you use the compressor & impact wrench to spin them on Nascar style.:D
 
searingcue said:
The secret to a tight ferrule is a six foot pipe wrench with a HARD ROCK MAPLE handle. The maple handle provides the needed feel for precision tightening. But must stress again HARD ROCK. Ooops... Did I mention straight grain is important too.:D :D

Dennis :D
Click to expand...

LOL I just got a picture of that with a big six foot pipe slid over the end of the wrench!:D
 
searingcue said:
The secret to a tight ferrule is a six foot pipe wrench with a HARD ROCK MAPLE handle. The maple handle provides the needed feel for precision tightening. But must stress again HARD ROCK. Ooops... Did I mention straight grain is important too.:D :D

Dennis :D
Click to expand...



I don't think You could get enough leverage with a 6 footer, ;) Telephone poll
May do the trick though. :p :D :D :D :D

Greg
 
I hate to admit it...

I usually do not agree with your methodology Blud, but you are correct here. IF you guys use a sub-standard procedure (or tool in this case) that may be ok in your own shop, but you should NEVER instruct someone else to do the same procedure. It is unsafe, could be damaging to the equipment, and is surely not the right way (especially under the power of a lathe to boot).

I've never seen a shop teacher instruct their students to drill a hole using a hammer, or tighten a bolt with a file...

There's always a correct tool for the job. In this case, you were born with the necessary tools.
 
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