Ferrule threaded on or no?

BarenbruggeCues said:
Eric brings up some interesting points. With the glues being manufactured today, who's to say how long they'll hold up?
Years ago I was sitting in the little restaurant at the Scanticon, or maybe it was the Radisson, during one of my first SBE visits. In walks a production cue company owner with a couple other guys in tow and they pull up chairs at table right next to mine.
Ironically part of the discussion they were involved in was very similar to this one. I was a bit shocked at how the talked turned to building cues with a shorter life span and how just assembling the cue as quick and inefficient as possible would help create an expanding industry for repair work. That was one of my first influences for threading parts.

If I were the owner of a production cue company I would not be threading on collars and ferrules either. I would be more concerned with how many cues I could produce in a shorter period of time with a higher bottom line.
But I'm not a huge company owner and have a different mind set for my end product.
Either way none of us will be here to be able to compare the 2 ways in 100 years anyway. I just hope they say those collars and ferrules are still just as tight as the day they were installed no matter how or who has done it.

This is the cue (no pun intended) for someone to get all up in arms about me saying if one slips their collars on you're not a custom builder. :cool:
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They have so much money, they can do this.
https://youtu.be/K6g2fgu-ZWQ?t=69
Royce ( RIP ) did this project and it's freaking awesome to me.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8vltrnnegM
 
Some final thoughts on the subject and then I have to go thread some parts together.

I'm not talking about repairs or how you prefer to build your cues. What I'm suggesting is about how I build mine. If it helps, fine. I'm suggesting to you this not to change how you do things but to just provoke a thought.
For those who build short splice cues I believe the consensus is threads in some form or fashion are used at the A joint. Why? I'll answer that........because we feel it is the most efficient and best way we know how to pull two parts together in what we hope to be a long lasting, permanent connection. My thinking is simply, why should I treat another part of my cue any differently?

10-4, over and out (at least until the next time this subject comes calling again)
Wonder what the over and under is for that to happen again? :)
 
qbilder said:
Slip fit is exactly that, a slip fit. Call it whatever you like, but if you install your collars by slipping them over a tenon with your fingers, it's a slip fit. You don't have to justify your method. Your cue should do that on its own.

Something interesting to me as I read through this topic is that nobody is wrong. Usually topics are about 70% full of BS, with the truth being drown out by the inexperienced newbs. In this thread, I can't find anybody who's wrong. Two easy examples are Meucci & McDermott. Meucci threaded nothing but the "A" joint in most of their cues, even the ones with steel joint collars. McDermott threaded dang near everything. Both brands have a long history of being quality, solid, good playing cues. Both brands produced tens of thousands of cues. Something I never have known common to either brand is collars or ferrules falling off. Meucci may have had a few issues with failed ferrules, but not often ferrules falling off. And to be fair, whether you agree with the ferrule design or not, the issue of failed ferrules wasn't big in comparison to the amount of shafts they produced. Either company has made more cues than all of combined, by a lot. So who are we to say one camp is better than the other? Do what you do & let your cues do the talking.
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My ex wife bought me a meucci about 25 years ago. First the ferrule cracked on both shafts and then the joint collar on the butt cracked. My son has it and it's still like that to this day.

I never gave much thought to why these things cracked but this thread got me thinking. Were these plastic parts installed with an interference fit? That could well lead to cracking.

At any rate I have always considered meucci cues to be POS from my one and only ownership experience. Just because they made a lot of them doesn't mean they made them right.

JC
 
JC said:
My ex wife bought me a meucci about 25 years ago. First the ferrule cracked on both shafts and then the joint collar on the butt cracked. My son has it and it's still like that to this day.

I never gave much thought to why these things cracked but this thread got me thinking. Were these plastic parts installed with an interference fit? That could well lead to cracking.

At any rate I have always considered meucci cues to be POS from my one and only ownership experience. Just because they made a lot of them doesn't mean they made them right.

JC
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Key word, "cracked". They didn't come off. The material itself failed, not the installation. Look into that any way you wish, but it is what it is.
 
qbilder said:
Key word, "cracked". They didn't come off. The material itself failed, not the installation. Look into that any way you wish, but it is what it is.
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If it was pressed on with a light interference fit I could see the wood swelling and cracking it even if the material itself wasn't inherently weak or otherwise flawed. That's what I meant in relation to this thread's discussion. Of course I don't know, I wasn't there when the cue was assembled.

JC
 
JC said:
If it was pressed on with a light interference fit I could see the wood swelling and cracking it even if the material itself wasn't inherently weak or otherwise flawed. That's what I meant in relation to this thread's discussion. Of course I don't know, I wasn't there when the cue was assembled.

JC
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Of all of the cues that I have seen over the past 25 years of working on them, Muecci has had the majority of the ferrule, ring and collar failures. All of which cracked and not just come loose. I personally think it was just cheap plastic material and not so much the fitment or swelling. Maple generally shrinks over time as it continues to dry (yes even after kiln drying) which is why if you look at an older muecci it appears to have either a dark glue line or gap between the collar and shaft by the threaded insert or how the rings seem to swell bigger than the wood. So I wouldn't think that swelling would be your problem unless you are in a very humid place and the cue was brand new. But again this is just my observations from what I have seen and worked on over the years and I may be 100% wrong with my conclusions.
 
JC said:
If it was pressed on with a light interference fit I could see the wood swelling and cracking it even if the material itself wasn't inherently weak or otherwise flawed. That's what I meant in relation to this thread's discussion. Of course I don't know, I wasn't there when the cue was assembled.

JC
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The original description of the ABS that was used said. It is the least durable of all the ferrules. That combined with, no glue rings on the ferrule or the tenon and the possibility of inadequate glue leads to a high rate of cracking.
Food for thought.
 
JC said:
If it was pressed on with a light interference fit I could see the wood swelling and cracking it even if the material itself wasn't inherently weak or otherwise flawed. That's what I meant in relation to this thread's discussion. Of course I don't know, I wasn't there when the cue was assembled.

JC
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It wasn't very good plastic. Either way, what's the difference between a tight slip fit & a snug thread fit? When I thread things, I am careful to have a snug fit, as little slop as possible. If the wood swells enough to bust the plastic, it wouldn't matter if it were threaded or slip fit.
 
One of the things to consider when comparing threaded to non is the actual surface area between the two surfaces being bonded. Despite the mechanical connection the more important factor is by threading you have increased the surface area being glued. So for example the difference between a straight 3/8 tenon 1 in long and a tenon threaded 3/8 16 tpi. You are creating over double the surface area for the glue. To me this argument is not about what is stronger because there is no contest. The threaded connection wins hands down. The only question is if a non threaded ferrule is strong enough and robust enough to do the job it was intended to do.
 
Canadian cue said:
So for example the difference between a straight 3/8 tenon 1 in long and a tenon threaded 3/8 16 tpi. You are creating over double the surface area for the glue. To me this argument is not about what is stronger because there is no contest. The threaded connection wins hands down.
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Canadian cue said:
The only question is if a non threaded ferrule is strong enough and robust enough to do the job it was intended to do.
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Good points on both accounts. A couple of questions, though. A 3/8-16 x 1/2" long ferrule will have 8 threads. Each thread will act as a perpendicular ledge to absorb impact. Would this mean the tenon shoulder on this shaft will endure 800% less impact stress than the shoulder of a 3/8" x 1/2" slip fit ferrule? And would a glue joint perpendicular to impact endure better than a parallel glue joint? Wouldn't it be the difference of tensile strength vs. shear strength, only the tensile strength being magnified by 8x in this particular example? Food for thought for those who believe slip fit is as good as threading. Not to persuade anybody in any direction or another, just offering something to think about.

Collars is another subject altogether. I do not thread collars, and for good reason. Using collars to reinforce end grain is as old as humans using tools. The purpose is to bind the wood to prevent end grain from splitting due to stress. In cues, a joint collar prevents wood from splitting as the cue flexes. In my own cues, the butt cap prevents the wood from blowing out due to the bumper expanding as the cue is dropped on the floor. In either application, the collars prevent the wood from blowing out & splitting. They are not there to endure impact like the ferrule does. While I 100% agree that threading them will work better at keeping them from falling off, I also believe 100% that a snug slip fit is better at achieving the goal of binding the grain. Agree to disagree, but it's my cues & that's why I thread ferrules but not collars. If I believed threading would be better, I'd thread. My decision has zero to do with machine capability or time or laziness. It has everything to do with practicality. I'll also say that my thoughts apply ONLY to my own cues. My cues go together differently than many other cues, and similarly to others still yet. It's up to everybody to decide what works best for them and why, and it should really only apply to your own cues.
 
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