Finish

This is a topic that can go on forever, what is a good way to finish a cue? I've heard of using epoxy but, how would I appy it? I'm working on finishing a cue I just finished, I'm using automotive clear coat, and I'm sure it will turn out ok. but whats a better way to get the job done?
 
This is a topic that can go on forever, what is a good way to finish a cue? I've heard of using epoxy but, how would I appy it? I'm working on finishing a cue I just finished, I'm using automotive clear coat, and I'm sure it will turn out ok. but whats a better way to get the job done?

Different builders, different opinions. Why would you look for an inferior finish. As far as I'm concerned there is no better finish than a automotive urethane.

Dick
 
Some do use epoxy as a final finish, and It works for some, but It is more then likely used as a sealer/primer type application in most shops, and then other type finishes are applied over that after prep work is done. The epoxy is a better filler IMO then most finishes are, but not as hard, and can be more of a chore to buff out.

I use It as a primer/sealer but prefer to use thinner epoxies that are made for clear cotes. Even then I have to heat It to thin It out even more. During/after applying It you have to rotate it between centers at low rpm's until It cures, let It harden well before prepping for final finish, otherwise It can clog, and burn up a lot of paper. I usually wait about a week, but that's to be safe, and you may be able to start sooner then that.
 
Some do use epoxy as a final finish, and It works for some, but It is more then likely used as a sealer/primer type application in most shops, and then other type finishes are applied over that after prep work is done. The epoxy is a better filler IMO then most finishes are, but not as hard, and can be more of a chore to buff out.

I use It as a primer/sealer but prefer to use thinner epoxies that are made for clear cotes. Even then I have to heat It to thin It out even more. During/after applying It you have to rotate it between centers at low rpm's until It cures, let It harden well before prepping for final finish, otherwise It can clog, and burn up a lot of paper. I usually wait about a week, but that's to be safe, and you may be able to start sooner then that.

Hi Greg,

For times when you have to sand up 320 grit try this no load paper. It is the cat's ass and does not clog up. I blow some air across it into a vacuum box and just keep sanding.

This product has saves me a lot of money.

http://www.onlineindustrialsupply.com/abrasive-sheets.html

Rick
 
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Hi Greg,

For times when you have to sand up 320 grit try this no load paper. It is the cat's ass and does not clog up. I blow some air across it into a vacuum box and just keep sanding.

This product has saves me a lot of money.

Rick

Rick,

Which "this"? :smile:

I think you meant to include a link.

Also, didn't someone mention a problem with the silicates (or some other chemical) in some of these no-load papers causing fish-eyes or other problems with the finish? I know your finishes are top-notch, so just wondering.

Gary
 
I'm always interested in a better way Rick, please feel free to pm if you don't want to post here. Normally the wait isn't an issue for me, and I could do it sooner I suppose. I use 3m up to 320, then I have another off brand in 400 that works for me, then any finer I move back into 3m products, and really fine into Micromesh. That's all the papers that I'm using now anyhow. that does change when I find deals on papers that will work for me though.
 
This is a topic that can go on forever, what is a good way to finish a cue? I've heard of using epoxy but, how would I appy it? I'm working on finishing a cue I just finished, I'm using automotive clear coat, and I'm sure it will turn out ok. but whats a better way to get the job done?

IMHO finishing a cue is one of the hardest parts of building a cue :) surely the most aggravating...I bet others would agree.

With that said, I've seen good finishes using everything from CA (super glue), water based, automotive clear coat, epoxies, etc. Me personally, I prefer to seal with epoxy and top with automotive clear coat, but that's just me. When I first started I used CA almost exclusively, and I know some of those cues are still holding up good. My very first cue ever I used Tru Oil gunstock finish, which I think is some concoction of linseed oil and other stuff, and honestly it came out very well if I remember. Have no idea how it held up, who knows where that cue is today!

I actually prefer my playing cues to have a more satin finish, as opposed to a high gloss. But I must be the odd duck on that boat, I rarely see others in agreement :) I just think a nice warm satin finish brings out the beauty in the woods more.

Just my $.02...
 
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All great info but how do apply the super glue or epoxy? I would think that it would be wavy, full of fibers, and a lot of sanding. I must be missing something since there seems to be so many people that use it.
 
If you use the "search" option in the ask the cuemaker section you will find many many threads with more info than you could probably process and should answer all your questions.

Good luck.
 
All great info but how do apply the super glue or epoxy? I would think that it would be wavy, full of fibers, and a lot of sanding. I must be missing something since there seems to be so many people that use it.

I would invest in Chris Hightower's "Finishing Made Simple" and in Barringer's "Proper Finishing Techniques Using Epoxy & Cyano" videos. All the info you need is right there. Both videos address your questions.


http://cuesmith.com/index.php?page=book_video

http://www.cuecomponents.com/ficuewicy.html
 
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All great info but how do apply the super glue or epoxy? I would think that it would be wavy, full of fibers, and a lot of sanding. I must be missing something since there seems to be so many people that use it.

I think a couple of others have pointed out some very good vids for seeing the process of actually applying the finish. Everyone has their own methods that they have used or developed and that seems to work best for them.

I would highly recommend that you steer clear of the super glue or CA finish if you have a choice. The vapor fumes from that are brutal, only attempt if you have some type of exhaust fan setup or something similar. The epoxy method is easier too in my opinion. For a CA finish I used to do upwards of 20 or 30 coats, and you had to be careful, one coat had to be applied within 5 or 10 minutes most or so of the prior. If you missed that window, you had to wait a couple of days, otherwise the vapors of the glue drying would crack the finish coat you put on top of it.

As far as the actual application, I used to apply my super glue finishes by using the back side of a folded over sheet of sandpaper. Basically, you get a real thin CA, get your cue spinning in your lathe, and hold the sandpaper back to the bottom of your cue on one end. Then you start a "bead" of CA at the top of the cue, the paper on the bottom will spread out the bead, and you basically walk your way down the entire length of the cue. Doesn't take long at all to put a coat on. Again, make sure you are well ventilated and wear proper safety gear as you always should. Gloves, glasses and face shield, etc.

I used to do my epoxy coats in a similar manner, however I would use a wedge of plastic, similar to a Bondo spreader that body shop guys use, instead of sandpaper. Make sure you get some good clear finish epoxy as well, most cue stuff suppliers have it.

Again, I'll stress that the CA finish is best not messed with. There are some very good water based and safer finishes available now a days for cues from several of the reputable suppliers. The old CA route was back when your options weren't as plentiful :)

Anything I listed above is purely advice, follow it at your own risk!
 
Rick,

Which "this"? :smile:

I think you meant to include a link.

Also, didn't someone mention a problem with the silicates (or some other chemical) in some of these no-load papers causing fish-eyes or other problems with the finish? I know your finishes are top-notch, so just wondering.

Gary

Gary,

I don't have a problem with fisheyes but I do get one now and then. It is a easy fix. I use a body shop safe solvent wipe before the tac cloth and my shop is silicon free.

A few years ago I put a double air drying system on line and since then most all of my problems went away as now all I need to do is keep my temperatures in the range required.

There may be a fisheye concern with this paper but what little I see is moot.

Rick
 
Rick,

Which "this"? :smile:

I think you meant to include a link.

Also, didn't someone mention a problem with the silicates (or some other chemical) in some of these no-load papers causing fish-eyes or other problems with the finish? I know your finishes are top-notch, so just wondering.

Gary

I mentioned the problem with the no load paper. Water borne urethane manufacturers say it can cause fish eyes. The 220 paper that Rick mentions works so well that I use it anyway. I just do a quick once over sanding with regular 220 paper before I put on the finish. I haven't had any problems with fish eyes.

Kim
 
I received a phone call the other day about finishes and by the questions being asked, I said to myself - AZ. Sure enough here's the thread.

We have to start this out with the presumption that we're all using safety equipment such as glasses, masks, filtration and ventilation. Those are the prerequisites to opening a shop. We'll assume that all prudent cuemakers both past and upcoming would think enough about their safety to have all the necessary preventive and safety equipment. That being said, a CA finish is probably the easiest to apply of all the finishes. Automotive clear coat is cumbersome with all the spraying equipment and mixing that is involved. A UV system is the best route but it's costly for start-up and the learning curve slightly more difficult in finding a good base coat and more importantly, the top coat. We've used all three and the UV is the best and easiest in the long term. However it's best used when finishing quantities of cues and not practical for finishing one, two or three cues at a time; at least in my opinion. I prefer CA when doing small quantities of cues and I'm sure there are some who disagree with me but I don't like setting up the UV system for only 3 cues.

I can apply a CA finish in about 20 minutes and have the cue ready to go in less than an hour. Of course I don't do it that way as I want the cue to sit in my shop for a while before I give it out to a customer. The drying time varies from your location to the amount of humidity and temperature in your shop. I've used CA in Boca Raton, Florida (maximum humidity) to Las Vegas (no humidity) to New Smyrna Beach (much less than Boca). So, I would say that my experience in the drying process is well versed. Vegas is the absolute best place to build a cue. Everything goes right! The downside is, you had better learn how to construct that cue and make that cue sealed tight enough to prevent moisture from seeping in as the cue will expand when shipped to Florida and other areas. That's a whole other topic.

I'll relate a quick story. I have a friend who lived in the Florida Keys; a magnificant place to live but not build cues. We talked and I told him that his cue would not stand up to the dryness of Vegas. He just finished a cue and I said send it to me. He overnighted it. I left it on my pool table which was inside the house. Two days later the points rose out of the front as well as the ring work. I overnighted it back to him. Since this experience he is now building a better cue. Seeing is believing!

Anyway, back to CA. A CA finish dries much quicker in Vegas than in Florida. Although we are talking minutes and not hours. The first coat dries almost instantly. The second coat takes slightly longer and you should wait for it to totally dry (about 5 minutes) before applying the third coat. The third coat will also take time to dry and so on. I've applied a 3rd coat and gone to lunch, came back and put on a 4th coat; did some work for an hour and applied a 5th coat, etc, etc. What I recommend is applying the kicker or accelerator to a bounty paper towel and wipe the cue with that for instant drying. Then apply a 4th coat, accelerator coat, 5th coat, accelerator coat, etc until you've reached your desired thickness. By the time I get to 6 or 7 coats, I'm done and ready for sanding and polishing.

The base coat should be a clear finishing epoxy that resists yellowing such as this product: http://www.cuecomponents.com/cuecofiep.html

I've used and tried just about every imaginable product out there and this finish cue is by far the best. I'm sure there are other equally as good products out there but we settled on Finish Cure.

The abolsute best base coat epoxy is West System. I've spoken with numerous cue makers over the years and we all agree that West would be the best for a base coat or even for a top coat finish. We all agree with that with only one slight exception - West yellows! Period. If West didn't yellow it would be by far the best base and perhaps even top coat. For over a decade, I've recommended using the West 207-SA special hardener which does have an ultraviolet inhibiting additive which does improve the resistance to yellowing under sunlight and UV exposure but the cured epoxy surface will still require the additional protection. I researched this and tried to add various components and was unsuccessful. West with or without the 207SA yellows; period. I recommended using it for joining parts and ring work where the surface area is minimal and as a result exposure also minimal. West is great for building a cue.

I don't know of any experienced, knowledgeable or otherwise cue maker foolish enough to use West as a base coat or for a finish for this very reason in that it certainly does yellow. We've proved that here: http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/cuecomponents_2217_132581395

Now, while I must admit I did expose these adhesives to rapid and excessive sunlight - direct exposure to the Vegas sun. However, the bottomline is G5, Devcon and West with 207SA all did yellow. The Finish Cure did not. The fact that the three products did yellow was all the proof experienced cue makers and myself needed to not use West for a base coat. I haven't tested whether it will cause yellowing in 1 year, 3 years or 5 years but one thing for sure is that it will yellow. No experienced cue maker who values their reputation would use West as a base coat. And I'm happy to say that I don't know of any cuemaker using it as such.

As for applying a CA finish, it's best to use a paper towel such as Bounty which will guarantee complete coverage and a more even application. Harder applicators will leave skipped areas and not provide as smooth a surface, at least in my experience. I apply the finish cure with a rubber glove mashing it into the wood for complete coverage. You should leave this coat dry for at least two days but once again depending where you're working (in what state).

Another option is to use an odorless Cyano. This is not as hard as regular cyano when cured but the difference is negligable however the cost is 3 times more than regular cyano. Cyano is also extremely clear when it dries so your work had better be up to standards. :-)

And for sandpaper - we like Klingspor. Used it for years with great results. Their statement, "The Most Sanding Power for Your Money" is without question, very true!

I hope this helps and this is not the definitive source but I hope there is enough info to assist you in making an educated choice based on experience.
 
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I received a phone call the other day about finishes and by the questions being asked, I said to myself - AZ. Sure enough here's the thread.

We have to start this out with the presumption that we're all using safety equipment such as glasses, masks, filtration and ventilation. Those are the prerequisites to opening a shop. We'll assume that all prudent cuemakers both past and upcoming would think enough about their safety to have all the necessary preventive and safety equipment. That being said, a CA finish is probably the easiest to apply of all the finishes. Automotive clear coat is cumbersome with all the spraying equipment and mixing that is involved. A UV system is the best route but it's costly for start-up and the learning curve slightly more difficult in finding a good base coat and more importantly, the top coat. We've used all three and the UV is the best and easiest in the long term. However it's best used when finishing quantities of cues and not practical for finishing one, two or three cues at a time; at least in my opinion. I prefer CA when doing small quantities of cues and I'm sure there are some who disagree with me but I don't like setting up the UV system for only 3 cues.

I can apply a CA finish in about 20 minutes and have the cue ready to go in less than an hour. Of course I don't do it that way as I want the cue to sit in my shop for a while before I give it out to a customer. The drying time varies from your location to the amount of humidity and temperature in your shop. I've used CA in Boca Raton, Florida (maximum humidity) to Las Vegas (no humidity) to New Smyrna Beach (much less than Boca). So, I would say that my experience in the drying process is well versed. Vegas is the absolute best place to build a cue. Everything goes right! The downside is, you had better learn how to construct that cue and make that cue sealed tight enough to prevent moisture from seeping in as the cue will expand when shipped to Florida and other areas. That's a whole other topic.

I'll relate a quick story. I have a friend who lived in the Florida Keys; a magnificant place to live but not build cues. We talked and I told him that his cue would not stand up to the dryness of Vegas. He just finished a cue and I said send it to me. He overnighted it. I left it on my pool table which was inside the house. Two days later the points rose out of the front as well as the ring work. I overnighted it back to him. Since this experience he is now building a better cue. Seeing is believing!

Anyway, back to CA. A CA finish dries much quicker in Vegas than in Florida. Although we are talking minutes and not hours. The first coat dries almost instantly. The second coat takes slightly longer and you should wait for it to totally dry (about 5 minutes) before applying the third coat. The third coat will also take time to dry and so on. I've applied a 3rd coat and gone to lunch, came back and put on a 4th coat; did some work for an hour and applied a 5th coat, etc, etc. What I recommend is applying the kicker or accelerator to a bounty paper towel and wipe the cue with that for instant drying. Then apply a 4th coat, accelerator coat, 5th coat, accelerator coat, etc until you've reached your desired thickness. By the time I get to 6 or 7 coats, I'm done and ready for sanding and polishing.

The base coat should be a clear finishing epoxy that resists yellowing such as this product: http://www.cuecomponents.com/cuecofiep.html

I've used and tried just about every imaginable product out there and this finish cue is by far the best. I'm sure there are other equally as good products out there but we settled on Finish Cure.

The abolsute best base coat epoxy is West System. I've spoken with numerous cue makers over the years and we all agree that West would be the best for a base coat or even for a top coat finish. We all agree with that with only one slight exception - West yellows! Period. If West didn't yellow it would be by far the best base and perhaps even top coat. For over a decade, I've recommended using the West 207-SA special hardener which does have an ultraviolet inhibiting additive which does improve the resistance to yellowing under sunlight and UV exposure but the cured epoxy surface will still require the additional protection. I researched this and tried to add various components and was unsuccessful. West with or without the 207SA yellows; period. I recommended using it for joining parts and ring work where the surface area is minimal and as a result exposure also minimal. West is great for building a cue.

I don't know of any experienced, knowledgeable or otherwise cue maker foolish enough to use West as a base coat or for a finish for this very reason in that it certainly does yellow. We've proved that here: http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/cuecomponents_2217_132581395

Now, while I must admit I did expose these adhesives to rapid and excessive sunlight - direct exposure to the Vegas sun. However, the bottomline is G5, Devcon and West with 207SA all did yellow. The Finish Cure did not. The fact that the three products did yellow was all the proof experienced cue makers and myself needed to not use West for a base coat. I haven't tested whether it will cause yellowing in 1 year, 3 years or 5 years but one thing for sure is that it will yellow. No experienced cue maker who values their reputation would use West as a base coat. And I'm happy to say that I don't know of any cuemaker using it as such.

As for applying a CA finish, it's best to use a paper towel such as Bounty which will guarantee complete coverage and a more even application. Harder applicators will leave skipped areas and not provide as smooth a surface, at least in my experience. I apply the finish cure with a rubber glove mashing it into the wood for complete coverage. You should leave this coat dry for at least two days but once again depending where you're working (in what state).

Another option is to use an odorless Cyano. This is not as hard as regular cyano when cured but the difference is negligable however the cost is 3 times more than regular cyano. Cyano is also extremely clear when it dries so your work had better be up to standards. :-)

And for sandpaper - we like Klingspor. Used it for years with great results. Their statement, "The Most Sanding Power for Your Money" is without question, very true!

I hope this helps and this is not the definitive source but I hope there is enough info to assist you in making an educated choice based on experience.

Hi,

When performing a test one must have certain controls in place in order to maintain a baseline for observing their data. You must also perform testing with comparisons without prejudice or preconceived notions as to the outcome. I am not saying that Joe was not conducting his experiment with any intention to skew the out come but he should have used the epoxies in question with different types of finishes applied over them. Since he uses water clear cyno without UV inhibitor he did not put clear finishes over the epoxy samples.

As a basis lets say someone wants to use the thin stuff for finishing a cue. The first thing is to understand that cyno does not have any U/V inhibitors within it's chemistry. So placing it over West epoxy and putting it out in the Las Vegas Sun for any extended period of time will not prove much when you compare an automotive finish that contain UV protection. If I were a cyno user I would also be very concerned as to potential yellowing of a base coat if I leave the cue out in the Las Vegas sun.

UV Light or Sun Light has a discrete wave frequency and different materials have different exposure sensitivities that is quantified by time , distance and shielding as a cumulative measurement. Since pool cues that have finishes other than Cyno and that have UV inhibitors ( shielding ), ie. automotive polyurethane, the results of any testing should take these facts into account. Joe's test only proves that some epoxies left out in the Las Vegas sun will yellow. The question is how long were they left out there and how does that relate to the cumulative exposer of a cue used in normal conditions. One day in the sun may be equal to 30 years of case and pool room time. Who Knows? If you are using a cue for 30 years for example, at some point you will need a refinish. If you are a collector with un chalked units it won't matter anyway.

My friend has been finishing cues using G5 for the base coat and Auto Poly for over ten years and his cues are in my pool room all of the time. They are also dated with his signature. Since I pay very close attention to things like a cue's finish, I can state unequivocally that I see no yellowing in the white joints and butts or any other feature areas on his cue.

Last month I replace a damaged butt cap and refinished one of his cues from 02 and I can testify that there was zero yellowing in that time period. All UV exposure is cumulative and I would guess a pool cue spends most of it's life in a dark case and when it is taken out it in usually to play pool inside away from the sun.

As a side note I hit a deer with my Lincoln that has a pearlessence paint job on it. The hood and and fender were replaced and the base coat and clear where applied. That car was 6 years old and has never been garage kept being exposed to the sun for it's entire life span since new. When I got it back the color matched perfect as there was no pigment fade. I asked the body man if he tinted it or added anything to match the paint and he told me that he did not because the UV inhibitor in the clear coat these days are off the wall.

I use G5 and am not worried about it's yellowing and am using my cues and my friends cues as a tell tale or harbinger to indicate any downstream yellowing problems.

I don't knock Cyno or Finish Cure as they produce a great result. I like G5 because I can apply 4 coats within 3 minutes of each other to form a monolithic bond without having the scratch between the coats. I can add .012 to my dia. and then sand it down to half that size to form a very flat and level surface the next day with no fear of burning through. To me this is very productive and I don't have a lathe spinning other than to make the applications.

The only true way to gauge any potential yellowing effect that may occur is to observe or beta test cues in the field under the conditions that are germane to their normal usage with UV inhibitor clear coating as a control on those sample cues. From the facts we can see from Joe's testing, they would yellow with CA under extreme exposure to UV. How they would stand up under pool room conditions and for how long is a unknown factor.

Joe is right when he says that it may yellow and if I were using the water clear cyno I surely would heed his advice.

JMO,

Rick
 
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