First time as team captain critique my strategy

[Cdryden]

I've actually seen lower ranked players who are incredibly happy to beat stronger opponents,
even knowing it was handicapped. Because generally speaking, if a 2 beats a 7 or whatever,
it's because they played better that day while the 7 shot below his normal speed.
It's actually fun and competitive for the lower ranked player who is dying to win
and say "I played above my head and beat that guy."

But, to be fair, I never saw a higher ranked players act deliriously happy that they beat a 2.

I remember being a 6 (as high as it goes in my league) and playing a 2. I scratched the 8 on the break, 1 loss, and was running the table on the next rack when I accidentally knocked in the eight out of turn. The 2 screamed "Yeah, I kicked his ass!" (and he was being serious!) He went around telling everyone how he beat me! Funny thing is he never made one ball in the entire match.

I have never considered losing like that being beaten. Until I can beat you on even ground I don't consider myself a better player.

It didn't really bother me so much what he did, it just surprised me, the mentality of some of the league players. But I guess there is nothing wrong with him having his moment in the sun.

 

[justadub]

Not meant as a slam against anyone but I hate that part of the APA. I like the best player playing the best and the lowest playing the lowest. I don't want to play a 2 or a 3, and they shouldn't want to pay just be racking for me. It isn't fun or competitive for either. Pool is about who ever plays there best wins if the other person doesn't. And the om=nly way that works is if your are both around the same level.

But if you want to go to Vegas, my way isn't going to help you. If you want to learn to be a player I think (mho) it does...

This is why I generally try to match up my highest and lowest level players vs similar ability, if possible, esp during session. The rest of us, I play it as smart as I can, given what opportunities I have.

I don't always have that opportunity.

 

[frankncali]

Not meant as a slam against anyone but I hate that part of the APA. I like the best player playing the best and the lowest playing the lowest. I don't want to play a 2 or a 3, and they shouldn't want to pay just be racking for me. It isn't fun or competitive for either. Pool is about who ever plays there best wins if the other person doesn't. And the om=nly way that works is if your are both around the same level.

But if you want to go to Vegas, my way isn't going to help you. If you want to learn to be a player I think (mho) it does...

This is where I think a lot of people make a mistake. Granted just in my mind but still..

League night no matter how friendly is a competition. Some can take it farther than others but its still for something other than just for fun.

When you play each night the goal is for the team to do as well as it can and that means matching up some people in spots which might not be best for them but that is best for the team. I would not do that each week to the same person but it has to be done.
My belief is that people should stop playing pool when their match starts and play to win. Players should do what works and gets a W not what is cool. That goes for higher or lower rated players. Get the win then play play all night long. Try stuff and take more risks there not during a match. APA matches are not about who plays better wins its generally about who plays the worst loses... I tried to get my players to get the other players to make mistakes.. remember they are not pro level or even top local level players.
The time to "get better" is before and after matches. Thats also where you learn. If a 3 plays a 3 its 3 games of pool. That can not be those players sole place of learning "to be a player".

I do understand that there are different opinions and that my view of league play might not be everyone's.

 

[frankncali]

I agree, the apa format along with most other league formats doesn't really cultivate a players skill. Anytime it is beneficial to loose, something has went wrong with the original plan. But, that's just how it is with league play unfortunately.

I think it would be nice to be in a non handicapped league. Everyone plays 5 games per match. 5 matches per night. You gain points per games won and 1 bonus point per match won. I know that people will say that isn't good for new players and that's probably true. But they always have the apa.

I played in a BCA league that had no handicaps a few years back. I was on a good team and I play decently well.
That league doesn't exist anymore or struggles to get 4 teams of 4 players simply due to the no handicap rule.
Sure we alternated the break but that didn't matter.

No league is going to be perfect but I don't think most areas have enough of the better players interested in playing in a league. Just doesn't seem that way to me.

I wonder if something kind of like Joe Tuckers deal could make league or organized play more appealing to the better players. Events are never a problem if you look at BCA attendance and even the APA masters but weekly league play doesnt seem to appeal

 

[justadub]

It really depends on the player.

I have a couple 3's that have no problems playing up, and I know its not going to effect them.

Then i have a 3 who really has no business playing up, and she is so new that I don't want to discourage her like that if I don't have to. (She really should be a 2, in reality, but the system hasn't caught up with her yet.)

I'm not against throwing off, as the situation warrants. I just feel that we have a better chance, more often then not, when matching up closely. At least in session, when we play the same people, regularly.

Many other captains do not share my opinion, so there are many instances when my players will not be matched up evenly. So if I can manipulate it somewhat the way I want, I can usually get at least one the way i want.

Good luck everyone. New session started this week, at least here....

 

[ElLeon]

I have run a team for a few years now and enjoy the challenge of constantly rotating/recruiting players to keep the team in good shape.

You probably dont want to hear this, but i keep a detailed spreadsheet of every player on my team and the rank they play against in each match. It has a few weighted parameters and data points that I key off of. For regular season this can build up a general approximation of who well somebody plays against a specific rank (assuming they have enough matches against that rank to draw a reasonable conclusion). Then during playoff time I print out some of the specifics and percentages based on what I think we will encounter.

It doesn't dominate your throw strategy, but it gives a larger sample base to judge your players. Since you will also be shooting (or shooting and having a few pop's in my case) you cannot keep track of this over a large enough sample in your head.

There are a few rank/race match-ups which are mathematical sweet spots that you should try to exploit as much as possible, i'll leave it up to you to find those spots.

However, it being APA, you can always just wing it and see how it goes.

 

[Push&Pool]

thanks yeah the way i had it set up
3=sacrifice (always plays the best player)
5,5,and6,= my primary scores (get them in games i know they can win)
7,4,4= my reserve (play as needed)

I am the 3 (fell after stroke) and i don't mind sacrificing myself winning my match is not as important as winning the league (that would be an ultimate win for me). I develop in practice however i don't want to make people aggravated because i play the best player if that if you think that will happen.

thanks for the advice

AF

As far as I can tell your strategy seems fine, especially when winning is the top priority. Just a couple of things which can greatly increase your personal chances of beating their best players:
1. Never risk missing to play better position. Pocketing a ball whenever possible is crucial against superior players.
2. If you end up on a bad position, either shoot very hard or play the simplest available safety. Never shoot low-percentage shots lightly.
3. Don't risk too much or make any kind of unneeded mistakes. Pocket easy shots, play safe or try to get lucky on harder ones. When playing someone way better you shouldn't be testing limits of your skill.
4. If some of your balls are blocking pockets or trajectories of opponent's OBs, leave them be until you have no better options left.
5. Be patient, wait for their mistake and punish them as described above.

These tactics were made specifically for lower players to defeat the much better ones. They may seem cheap but if you really want to win, use those wisely. They're your best shot.

 

[Celophanewrap]

I remember being a 6 (as high as it goes in my league) and playing a 2. I scratched the 8 on the break, 1 loss, and was running the table on the next rack when I accidentally knocked in the eight out of turn. The 2 screamed "Yeah, I kicked his ass!" (and he was being serious!) He went around telling everyone how he beat me! Funny thing is he never made one ball in the entire match.

I have never considered losing like that being beaten. Until I can beat you on even ground I don't consider myself a better player.

It didn't really bother me so much what he did, it just surprised me, the mentality of some of the league players. But I guess there is nothing wrong with him having his moment in the sun.

Cheering when my opponent makes a mistake is something I just can't abide. I'd really have to have a serious hate for the other person for me to do something like that. That being said, I believe it's encumbant on your bastard's higher ranked team mates to teach this prlck proper ettiquete and graces while at the table. If you had been friends and he was giving you a good natured hard time that's one thing, but if it were me I'd be looking forward to the next time I get to face him and all the safetys I'd play and 7 or 8 balls-in-hand per game I'd get until he either gets the message and apologizes for being an ass or quits the game in tears. I hope you banged his girlfriend later and I hope he knew.

 

[Cdryden]

Cheering when my opponent makes a mistake is something I just can't abide. I'd really have to have a serious hate for the other person for me to do something like that. That being said, I believe it's encumbant on your bastard's higher ranked team mates to teach this prlck proper ettiquete and graces while at the table. If you had been friends and he was giving you a good natured hard time that's one thing, but if it were me 7'd be looking forward to the next time I get to face him and all the safetys I'd play and 7 or 8 ball s-in-hand per game until he either gets the message and apologizes for being an ass or quits the game in tears. I hope you banged his girlfriend later and I hope he knew.

I chalked it up to him being inexperienced. The better players on his own team set him straight. I didn't get too mad cause I knew he just didn't get it. I have played him since and showed him what a ass kicking really is.

 

[Cdryden]

As far as I can tell your strategy seems fine, especially when winning is the top priority. Just a couple of things which can greatly increase your personal chances of beating their best players:
1. Never risk missing to play better position. Pocketing a ball whenever possible is crucial against superior players.
2. If you end up on a bad position, either shoot very hard or play the simplest available safety. Never shoot low-percentage shots lightly.
3. Don't risk too much or make any kind of unneeded mistakes. Pocket easy shots, play safe or try to get lucky on harder ones. When playing someone way better you shouldn't be testing limits of your skill.
4. If some of your balls are blocking pockets or trajectories of opponent's OBs, leave them be until you have no better options left.
5. Be patient, wait for their mistake and punish them as described above.

These tactics were made specifically for lower players to defeat the much better ones. They may seem cheap but if you really want to win, use those wisely. They're your best shot.

I'm really starting to think that you have never played the game before. I would of thought that you might be accidentally right once in awhile.

 

[Push&Pool]

I'm really starting to think that you have never played the game before. I would of thought that you might be accidentally right once in awhile.

The feeling is getting mutual then. And please, what would your arguments be? I can't wait to hear them

 

[jeffj2h]

Another tip for the OP, in the "get comfortable" category: in APA the "away" team gets to pick the table. Recently my team arrived at the pool hall later then the "home" team. They were already practicing on a table, with all their stuff set up and they had all the chairs next to that table. They offered to play the matches on that table since, hey we've already got the balls out and such. Instead I picked a table 20 yards away. My team sauntered over to that table, set up their stuff and sat in the chairs. So even though it was not our home pool hall, at least we were surrounded by our team's players during matches instead of being surrounded by the other team.

 

[Ken_4fun]

My advice is to try to maniulate and to win.

If you have a player that needs to be lowered or is probably close to next skill level, try to match up where they can lose and it wont effect the outcome.

Secondly, if you see someone that is too low rated on the other team, match up and lose against that player. The best senirio would be the play a player that should lose on purpose against a player that IYO, that is ranked too low. You get the loss for your player and you get the win the for the other teams player that is under ranked.

Use your 7 for the win, they are not going to raise him...

Then use your remaining players to win the remaining matches. All you are trying to do is reach the playoffs. Winning the session doesnt pay anything more than the other teams that make the playoffs. Remember the goal is to get to the playoffs.

In playoffs, play to win. Usually you only have to win 3 matches. Based on that I always play best players (highest ranked). The odds are in your favor everytime you bring a higher handicap. My recommendation is play your 7, then your 6, then your 5. I see alot of times folks "save" their better players for the last matches and then they dont even play. (Stupid).

JMO, best of rolls,

Ken

 

[Cdryden]

The feeling is getting mutual then. And please, what would your arguments be? I can't wait to hear them

1 You said " Pocketing a ball whenever possible is crucial against superior players." --- I disagree, Often playing safe against a better player pays better dividends than a all out offense.

2. You said "If you end up on a bad position, either shoot very hard or play the simplest available safety. Never shoot low-percentage shots lightly."----Wrong again, shooting very hard and blindly hoping for something to happen is a very poor strategy.

3. You said " Pocket easy shots, play safe or try to get lucky on harder ones." ---- Shooting all your easy shots and leaving problems balls for last is a recipe for disaster as is trying to get lucky on harder ones. You should always have a plan in mind when you hit the ball. Taking a shot without have a reasonable idea of what is going to happen will often lead to a loss.

4. I somewhat agree with.

5. You said "Be patient, wait for their mistake and punish them as described above."----- Your idea of punishing the other player is in effect handing them the game on a silver platter.

That's is why I question your ability. (That and your ridiculous ram shot manifesto)

 

[Celophanewrap]

Another tip for the OP, in the "get comfortable" category: in APA the "away" team gets to pick the table. Recently my team arrived at the pool hall later then the "home" team. They were already practicing on a table, with all their stuff set up and they had all the chairs next to that table. They offered to play the matches on that table since, hey we've already got the balls out and such. Instead I picked a table 20 yards away. My team sauntered over to that table, set up their stuff and sat in the chairs. So even though it was not our home pool hall, at least we were surrounded by our team's players during matches instead of being surrounded by the other team.

Perhaps this is one of your local Bylaws, I don't think it's an APA rule and isn't widely in practice.

 

[Push&Pool]

I'm really starting to think that you have never played the game before. I would of thought that you might be accidentally right once in awhile.

1 You said " Pocketing a ball whenever possible is crucial against superior players." --- I disagree, Often playing safe against a better player pays better dividends than a all out offense.

2. You said "If you end up on a bad position, either shoot very hard or play the simplest available safety. Never shoot low-percentage shots lightly."----Wrong again, shooting very hard and blindly hoping for something to happen is a very poor strategy.

3. You said " Pocket easy shots, play safe or try to get lucky on harder ones." ---- Shooting all your easy shots and leaving problems balls for last is a recipe for disaster as is trying to get lucky on harder ones. You should always have a plan in mind when you hit the ball. Taking a shot without have a reasonable idea of what is going to happen will often lead to a loss.

4. I somewhat agree with.

5. You said "Be patient, wait for their mistake and punish them as described above."----- Your idea of punishing the other player is in effect handing them the game on a silver platter.

That's is why I question your ability. (That and your ridiculous ram shot manifesto)

1. I explained that you need to think about pocketing as a priority instead of position play. I was only talking about the offensive part of the game, not that you need to play every shot offensively.

2. When your only alternative is a very likely miss or a rather bad safety, it becomes your best option.

I'll deal with all these, together with 3, 4 and 5 (and more) in a future thread I'm going to post in a week or two. Please have patience.

 

[justadub]

Perhaps this is one of your local Bylaws, I don't think it's an APA rule and isn't widely in practice.

I'm going to have to re-read our bylaws (not a bad idea anyway) but we've always played home team picks the table here.

Isn't that the point of being "the home team"?

 

[justadub]

1. I explained that you need to think about pocketing as a priority instead of position play. I was only talking about the offensive part of the game, not that you need to play every shot offensively.

2. When your only alternative is a very likely miss or a rather bad safety, it becomes your best option.

I'll deal with all these, together with 3, 4 and 5 (and more) in a future thread I'm going to post in a week or two. Please have patience.

Another Manifesto?

Cool.

 

[Cdryden]

1. I explained that you need to think about pocketing as a priority instead of position play. I was only talking about the offensive part of the game, not that you need to play every shot offensively.

2. When your only alternative is a very likely miss or a rather bad safety, it becomes your best option.

I'll deal with all these, together with 3, 4 and 5 (and more) in a future thread I'm going to post in a week or two. Please have patience.

Why bother? I take back everything I said trying to keep someone from buying your foolishness. The world needs more suckers, thanks for doing your part.

 

[Push&Pool]

Why bother? I take back everything I said trying to keep someone from buying your foolishness. The world needs more suckers, thanks for doing your part.

My foolishness? People like you are responsible for so many suckers in the world. You just stand in the way of knowledge and sanity.