Fit and Finish.

[mamono]

I always wondered though, if your case is airtight and you are in a very humid place when you close it, how much of that humidity is trapped in the case when you close it with no way out.

But I hope that this shows you that we are thinking about it and doing what we can to protect against moisture. I have thought about this a lot over the years and although I still believe that it's mostly up to the cue's construction how well it handles moisture I do agree that a case can help to protect the cue against the effects of moisture if it's built with that in mind.

When I buy cases, I think about a good seal. Like JB described in his post, it is not about keeping the humidity out but a matter of keeping it relatively stable. Sure, aged wood from custom cue makers will be more resilient to the affects of constant changing climates, but whatever we can do to stabilize those conditions will help to improve and lengthen the life of the cue.

Earlier this year I purchased a 27 year old cue from the original owner who happened to reside in Florida. At the time he bought the cue, he decided to put it inside of an Adams case. These cases, though cheaply made, have a relatively decent seal. I had the cue refinished in October and was told by the cue maker that the cue was the dead straightest he had ever worked on for its age to come from Florida. I was both shocked and relieved to hear that!

Most cues are sealed over the largest portion of their surface, maybe 95% or more. A careful cue maker may have it fully sealed. The parts that aren't sealed in some cues are carefully fitted and probably less likely to pass humidity than a case. For example a weight bolt and the bumper over it may be into raw wood that isn't sealed. Obviously there still isn't much actual exposure to open air.

Considering how long it will take humidity and temperature to stabilize in the outside air and in a cue case is worthwhile but isn't the primary thing that should control moisture in a cue. If a cue isn't sealed to begin with it will be moving around every time it is played with and the least of it's woes will be the brief time it is subjected to different conditions inside a case.

If the cue is wrapless, then yes it is sealed nearly 90% excluding the shafts. Shafts are the first to warp since they are mostly exposed wood. Most cues when introduced to humidity and temperature changes warp around the linen wrap of the handle. This is where the cue handle is least protected. It is often times bare wood with some Elmer's glue underneath the linen wrap. Elmer's glue is not very moisture resistant. Moisture absorbs into the linen and then into the wood afterward.

I don't think its a matter of controlling the moisture in the cue, its a matter of keeping the cue in as stable of an environment that does not change too often nor too quickly. The sharp changes in humidity and/or temperature will cause the wood to expand and contract. With that expansion and contraction, the wood will want to move in the direction of what its natural fibers pull it toward. That is why you won't know what direction it'll warp if subjected to harsh condition. A cue case should help minimize this affect as best as possible. At least, that is what would be ideal.

The cork type cap is made from EVA foam that we cut with the laser. This method works for all tube sizes. We can do the same with wood.

What I think I want to do is develop a lid that seals but at the same time preserves the capacity inside the case.

When I get home I will be doing more development on this.

Out of curiosity, but when I think of foam then I wonder of longevity. I understand that memory foam product in general normally have a 15 year warranty, would that amount to the time it takes for the foam material to become brittle and dry out? I'm thinking about this based on how standard form would become brittle and fall apart after a certain age.

 

[ShootingArts]

looking at this from the other side of the fence

If the cue is wrapless, then yes it is sealed nearly 90% excluding the shafts. Shafts are the first to warp since they are mostly exposed wood. Most cues when introduced to humidity and temperature changes warp around the linen wrap of the handle. This is where the cue handle is least protected. It is often times bare wood with some Elmer's glue underneath the linen wrap. Elmer's glue is not very moisture resistant. Moisture absorbs into the linen and then into the wood afterward. [/COLOR]

We obviously define things a bit differently. The typical modern natural(non-spliced) shaft has had a dipping or two in stabilizer which penetrates very deeply, at least one coat of sealer, a light sanding where it isn't finished the same as the butt just to remove the outer build up of the sealer, and then multiple coats of high grade wax with each coat heated until it gets some penetration into the wood. The wood on the ends has typically been soaked in a very thin CA adhesive that penetrates end grain nicely. None of this is what I refer to as "exposed wood".

I don't think its a matter of controlling the moisture in the cue, its a matter of keeping the cue in as stable of an environment that does not change too often nor too quickly. The sharp changes in humidity and/or temperature will cause the wood to expand and contract. With that expansion and contraction, the wood will want to move in the direction of what its natural fibers pull it toward. That is why you won't know what direction it'll warp if subjected to harsh condition. A cue case should help minimize this affect as best as possible. At least, that is what would be ideal.

Actually most modern custom cue makers have owned a piece of wood between two and ten years before it becomes part of a cue after it has been previously aged elsewhere. During that time multiple passes have been taken on the wood and a decision made if it is to be used, if it is to be cored, and if so, how it is to be cored. Odds are that any warpage will be due not to residual natural stresses but to uneven abuse such as wetting one side deeply and not giving it a chance to dry or very uneven application of heat over a long period.

If significant moisture is in the wrap or even in the wood under it after play, that is a comparatively fast introduction of moisture. Wetting down the butt in the grip area and then storing it in an manner where moisture can't escape at the normal rate sounds much like the torture testing done in laboratories to accelerate aging to predict what will happen over much longer periods.

In hot humid climates where mold and mildew spores are everywhere we are begging to incubate them too, creating issues with not just the cue but the case also. Desiccant packs might be one solution but would players want the extra weight and aggravation?

Quality wraps may or may not absorb significant moisture depending on the type of wrap and the cue builder's preference. If it does absorb moisture we want to draw it back out before it has time to soak through everything protecting the wood. I'd say that the best way to prevent warpage is to only use a case for transport and store the cue vertically with gentle air flow around it, not forced air.

When and if these nearly moisture tight cases are created some people will be introducing substantial moisture into the interior in various ways. I predict that these people will be unhappy customers over time if they live in the warmer climes, probably cooler too but I'm not nearly as familiar with cold country.

Hu

 

[ridewiththewind]

I always wondered though, if your case is airtight and you are in a very humid place when you close it, how much of that humidity is trapped in the case when you close it with no way out.

I, too, have often wondered this myself...which is why, call me a Crazy Analist, but...I keep my cases closed after taking the desired cue out. It was just a habit I got in to because it rains a lot here, and it made sense to me that whatever material was used inside might have an absorption quality, however slight.

It is not the only reason I got into the practice of keeping my cases closed...cases get knocked over a lot. It really doesn't take that much longer to open and close the case...but I suspect some might find the practice a PITA.

Lisa

 

[danquixote]

I am somewhat dubious about the need to protect cues from humidity. I have seen cues that traveled in trunks across country....and emerged none the worse for wear...Yes this is extremely foolish.....and most of us would not subject our prize cue to such abuse. Also saw the post from the gentleman whose cue was 20+ yrs old and lived in the basement. If you truly feel the need for a hermetically sealed case then I would suggest a case from halliburton. I have used these cases for years to transport a very fine Sako rifle and precision optics with total protection. These damn things are almost bullet proof.

 

[JB Cases]

Out of curiosity, but when I think of foam then I wonder of longevity. I understand that memory foam product in general normally have a 15 year warranty, would that amount to the time it takes for the foam material to become brittle and dry out? I'm thinking about this based on how standard form would become brittle and fall apart after a certain age.

EVA Foam is what flip flop sandles are made of among other things. I think that it has a long long shelf life.

Here is the Wikipedia on it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene-vinyl_acetate

Foam rubber comes in all types and the quality, durability, properties, and longevity depend on the raw materials and the density.

I try to use high quality foam which doesn't break down easily. For that reason people have Instroke cases that are up to 18 years old and the interior works as well as on day one that they got the case.

I personally have two cases, one Instroke from 1991 and the other one from 1993 which are both in perfect condition with no break down of the foam rubber padding whatsoever.

So I don't know if the material used to cork the case would break down over time and degrade the seal. Possibly as you really can't escape entropy. But I tend to think that this stuff would last a lifetime.

Maybe I should look at using actual cork. After all it works for wine.

 

[JB Cases]

I am somewhat dubious about the need to protect cues from humidity. I have seen cues that traveled in trunks across country....and emerged none the worse for wear...Yes this is extremely foolish.....and most of us would not subject our prize cue to such abuse. Also saw the post from the gentleman whose cue was 20+ yrs old and lived in the basement. If you truly feel the need for a hermetically sealed case then I would suggest a case from halliburton. I have used these cases for years to transport a very fine Sako rifle and precision optics with total protection. These damn things are almost bullet proof.

I have suggested the Halliburton cases many times. You might not be aware but they do make a few specifically for pool cues.

I think that well made cues are pretty stable. The process of cue making when done right, which is to say that the wood is stress relieved through a fairly long process of making small reductions in diameter, allowing the wood to move, and subsequently cutting out the warp, rinse and repeat....does the trick to end up with wood that doesn't move much anymore.

I tend to think that it's like Burton Spain said, 'the pet alligator may be trained not to eat the family dog but the dog would feel a lot safer if he wasn't there.'

Basically then you might not "need" to protect against moisture but there is not any harm and only benefit to doing so.

 

[JB Cases]

\

When and if these nearly moisture tight cases are created some people will be introducing substantial moisture into the interior in various ways. I predict that these people will be unhappy customers over time if they live in the warmer climes, probably cooler too but I'm not nearly as familiar with cold country.

Hu

Such case have been around since the 70's. Fellini cases, Centennial, and It's George cases all have produced cases which are nearly moisture tight.

There have been many box cases which form a decent moisture barrier and allow NO air flow around the cue.

Longoni cases with rubber gasket seals have been around for 15 years.

I think that the truth is that we are ALL GUESSING at what really happens to a cue when it is subjected to moist and dry environments. We know what happens to wood. Many people have done plenty of tests on that. But no one to my knowledge has ever done any sort of extensive or conclusive tests of what happens to fully constructed pool cues when exposed to the elements.

I think that it's truly more about the cue and how it's made than it is about the case when it comes to moisture. Obviously if we use extreme examples such as the trunk that gets to 150 degrees with 80% moisture then one can say that a case which insulates and seals the moisture level at 8% will help to combat the effects of climate acting on the cue. But what we don't know for example is that if we put two Szambotis which were made practically the same way at the same time into that car trunk, one in a case which seals and the other in a case that doesn't, how will the cues move and to what degree? That is the type of data we don't have and therefore almost everything we say about what we think will happen is way out there in terms of speculation.

 

[Snapshot9]

First John...

I can appreciate your striving for excellence in a case. That said, I would like to know what your goals are:

Are you looking to making a small amount of cases with a big profit margin.

Or quite a few cases with a smaller profit margin?

I like the quality in Lexuses, but I can't afford one. If I was still working, no problem, but I am on disability, and I can't afford a $500 case, so I try to get the best I can for what I can afford.

But quality is not the 'end all', John, as it seems to be with you. Versitility of the case is a big selling factor for me, how easy and convenient is the case to use, and how heavy it is. I have a checklist of things a case must have before I will buy it. (these are things the Japanese caught onto quickly with their cars years back).

Another thing John, I am going on 62, and I don't need for the case to last a 100 years, my kids don't play pool.

And I want to know why casemakers don't listen to the people, and make the case the way their potential customers want it made, not only for quality, but for convenience sake too.

 

[JB Cases]

I can appreciate your striving for excellence in a case. That said, I would like to know what your goals are:

Are you looking to making a small amount of cases with a big profit margin.

Or quite a few cases with a smaller profit margin?

I like the quality in Lexuses, but I can't afford one. If I was still working, no problem, but I am on disability, and I can't afford a $500 case, so I try to get the best I can for what I can afford.

But quality is not the 'end all', John, as it seems to be with you. Versitility of the case is a big selling factor for me, how easy and convenient is the case to use, and how heavy it is. I have a checklist of things a case must have before I will buy it. (these are things the Japanese caught onto quickly with their cars years back).

Another thing John, I am going on 62, and I don't need for the case to last a 100 years, my kids don't play pool.

And I want to know why casemakers don't listen to the people, and make the case the way their potential customers want it made, not only for quality, but for convenience sake too.

My goal is to make cases that are very protective first. To that end I put a lot of focus on the interior design and then put that interior into all the cases that I can.

My position with Sterling Gaming means that I get to be the one who decides to make sure that all of the cases Sterling Gaming offers adhere to my principles of protection first.

As such I do make sure that the interiors of all the cases that Sterling sells from the $15 soft cases to the $400 J.Flowers Tribute leather cases, to the $1900 Jiasen masterpiece cases all provide excellent protection first.

I am not concerned with profit because that takes care of itself through our ability to bring the products to market, promote them properly, and back them up generously.

Personally I am in a fortunate and unique position to be able to make very high end cases and have my research and development paid for through the profits on those cases. My shop is unique in the industry as I am sitting squarely on the gateway for most billiard related products we all use. I can take my ideas or your ideas, work them out and put them straight into production if I need to.

For your list of criteria I hope that within the breadth of cases we make across the price range and design spectrum that you could find some of them which meet your needs. Some cases I build are built with ergonomics, ease of use and comfort at the forefront while others are deliberately restricted in these areas to allow for a certain "look" that is appealing to a certain segment of the market.

I am always listening to the market. One downside to this though is that I end up with a lot of to-dos and to-try projects on the board. Being addicted to AZ doesn't help me to get this stuff done while at the same time being addicted to AZ helps to keep me abreast of what things customers would like to see.

The end result is however that I want to be able to provide Lexus quality and Volvo protection on the interior and wrap it with shells and skins that are as inexpensive as they can be or as expensive as we can imagine.

If you have a specific request then let me know and I can point you toward some thing I make that fulfills that desire if we already do it. If we don't then I certainly can do it as a custom case and eventually then as part of a line of production cases if it's something that is practical and useful to a majority of users.

One thing people don't know yet because I have not been promoting them is that we can do custom-production cases. This means I can take any case that we currently offer as a production model and build a custom version of it for near the price of the retail version. This is possible because part of my shop is focused on making prototypes and samples to keep the pipeline of designs flowing on the mass market side. So if you said you wanted a $150 case with three pockets instead of two then that is easily done.

Best,

John

 

[ShootingArts]

I think that it's truly more about the cue and how it's made than it is about the case when it comes to moisture. Obviously if we use extreme examples such as the trunk that gets to 150 degrees with 80% moisture then one can say that a case which insulates and seals the moisture level at 8% will help to combat the effects of climate acting on the cue. But what we don't know for example is that if we put two Szambotis which were made practically the same way at the same time into that car trunk, one in a case which seals and the other in a case that doesn't, how will the cues move and to what degree? That is the type of data we don't have and therefore almost everything we say about what we think will happen is way out there in terms of speculation.

John,

The main factors are indeed how the cue is made, and how it is treated. A person playing in short sessions of 68 degree air conditioning isn't going to expose the cue to the moisture of someone playing in the tropics for hours without climate control.

We do know exactly the conditions needed to create water vapor in the case or at least tables or formulas are readily available. It is up to the individual in possession of the case if these conditions will be met. I live in South Louisiana which is almost on the line between the tropics and subtropics and I know what happens to anything damp down here in a closed container. Assuming it is exposed to open air now and then there is no question of if bad things happen, only when.

Hu

 

[JB Cases]

John,

The main factors are indeed how the cue is made, and how it is treated. A person playing in short sessions of 68 degree air conditioning isn't going to expose the cue to the moisture of someone playing in the tropics for hours without climate control.

We do know exactly the conditions needed to create water vapor in the case or at least tables or formulas are readily available. It is up to the individual in possession of the case if these conditions will be met. I live in South Louisiana which is almost on the line between the tropics and subtropics and I know what happens to anything damp down here in a closed container. Assuming it is exposed to open air now and then there is no question of if bad things happen, only when.

Hu

As it happens I have an Instroke case which was stored at my father's house in Florida for ten years. Then when they moved to Oklahoma it was stored in the closet there for another five until now. Inside it is a McDermott cue that I purchased for his birthday in 1994 and an "Instroke" cue by Falcon that I gave him in the same year.

I plan to do a video review of these two cases and the cues inside of them in the next few days. This thread has taken an interesting turn with the discussion of moisture and cue construction and this case and the cues it holds happen to be perfect examples for the discussion.

 

[ShootingArts]

should be interesting

As it happens I have an Instroke case which was stored at my father's house in Florida for ten years. Then when they moved to Oklahoma it was stored in the closet there for another five until now. Inside it is a McDermott cue that I purchased for his birthday in 1994 and an "Instroke" cue by Falcon that I gave him in the same year.

I plan to do a video review of these two cases and the cues inside of them in the next few days. This thread has taken an interesting turn with the discussion of moisture and cue construction and this case and the cues it holds happen to be perfect examples for the discussion.

John,

Looking at that case or those cases and those cues should be interesting but the conditions are nothing like a typical "serious" recreational player who plays for hours a few times a week adding moisture to the inside of the case even if just what is on the outside of the wrap and then storing the cue in the case for a few days or a week before taking it out again. I find tools and instruments I haven't seen for years totally pristine in their cases but they were wiped down carefully and put in the cases and then the cases were unopened for those years.

After five years of storage in very dry conditions I would expect any mold or mildew to only appear as stains at this point although it might come nicely back to life if you put the suspect material in a sweat box for a few days or a week.

Hu

 

[ShootingArts]

John, this is interesting

John,

I don't know what this means if anything but it is fairly interesting. I currently use an Instroke 3x7, Southwest I think. It is the real leather case, decent seal but not great. I occasionally walk in and out the pool hall in a light rain, never wet a cue and I just wipe down the case and wish it luck.

In the summer the air conditioning can't keep up in the pool hall and it gets hot and humid. I carry three shafts that usually stay in the case all the time. Two plain rock maple and one flat laminate. They do stay in excellent AC when not at the pool hall and I always store my case vertical.

With that background, all three shafts were warped noticeably over the summer, the flat laminate to the point I quit using it. As of today all three roll dead straight to the naked eye. I pointed this out to someone in the pool hall and offered a ten dollar bet all three would be warped next summer. I might lose that bet though, I'm going to start taking them out of the case as soon as I get home before hot weather gets here.

Hu

 

[JB Cases]

John,

I don't know what this means if anything but it is fairly interesting. I currently use an Instroke 3x7, Southwest I think. It is the real leather case, decent seal but not great. I occasionally walk in and out the pool hall in a light rain, never wet a cue and I just wipe down the case and wish it luck.

In the summer the air conditioning can't keep up in the pool hall and it gets hot and humid. I carry three shafts that usually stay in the case all the time. Two plain rock maple and one flat laminate. They do stay in excellent AC when not at the pool hall and I always store my case vertical.

With that background, all three shafts were warped noticeably over the summer, the flat laminate to the point I quit using it. As of today all three roll dead straight to the naked eye. I pointed this out to someone in the pool hall and offered a ten dollar bet all three would be warped next summer. I might lose that bet though, I'm going to start taking them out of the case as soon as I get home before hot weather gets here.

Hu

Wood moves. Unless a case is completely sealed and keeps the wood at the same temperature and humidity level that it was at when in the shop then the wood is going to move. It may be imperceptible or it may be quite noticeable.

My cues now stay in my house because I don't have a car in China. However when I lived in the USA my cues stayed in my car all the time. Winter, summer, rain, snow, or shine they lived in the car.

I have been around the country and around the world with up to $50,000 in Instroke cases and without fail some brands of cues would move a lot while others would be dead straight no matter what the climate.

Many people have done experiments with wood that show how wood will swell and bow when moisture and heat are applied and then return to the orginal state when moisture is removed.

Like I said earlier I think that we are all just guessing when we make statements of what will happen to pool cues under x-conditions. The fact is that there are so many variables in how a cue is built, how it's cared for, and how it's stored that no one can say for sure what will happen to it in any given situation.

I mean you can take two SouthWests and one guy does nothing to clean the shaft, just let's the natural patina develop and lets the oils on his hands seal it and the other guy may obsessively clean his with sandpaper and all sorts of liquids and pastes that open the pores. Both guys might have identical Instroke cue cases and even be roommates who play at the same place at the same time.

If one guy's shafts warp and the other one doesn't then would it be fair to conclude that the case facilitated the warp in one while at the same protecting the cue from warping in the other one?

 

[JimS]

My thoughts on air tight and warping etc is ... sh!t happens.

It got to the point where I saw that no matter how I tried to manage the climatic conditions... sh!t happened. I gave up and just try to take care that damage doesn't occur and that they aren't mishandled. :groucho:

Merry Christmas John. You are good for this forum and I heartily applaud your commitment to excellence.

 

[ShootingArts]

Strange as it sounds the answer to your question is yes

If one guy's shafts warp and the other one doesn't then would it be fair to conclude that the case facilitated the warp in one while at the same protecting the cue from warping in the other one?

John,

As odd as it may sound, the answer to your question is yes. The case gave protection from warping due to mechanical conditions to one cue and failed to give protection from warping due to climate conditions to the other.

There is the rub for case makers, the case must offer the vast majority of people a safe place for their cues under "normal conditions", and normal conditions vary widely. You can make the best case in the world and if five to ten percent of your customers are unhappy you are unlikely to survive as a business.

In the conditions I play in during the summer months it seems I am making a moisture chamber out of my cue case and causing warpage. The shafts that aren't in use are simply stored vertically in coated wire racks with plenty of room for air circulation around them and I don't have warpage issues with these shafts. This is the same manner in which I store raw shaft blanks, dozens and dozens of them, without issues.

The fact that the shafts in my case straightened all by themselves as conditions changed is a very strong indication that my shafts warped due to moisture or lack of it, not mechanical causes. The shafts and entire cues are going to be subjected to very high moisture conditions for hours every time I go to the pool hall in the summer, no question. That is the real world conditions my cues have to operate in. The question is what do I need to do after leaving the pool hall? This summer I am going to try dropping my shafts in my standard vertical wood storage racks and see if they warp. My gut feeling is that I am better off wiping down my shafts and letting them dry naturally than leaving them in a case to dry more slowly.

Hu

 

[Jack Justis]

John,
My gut feeling is that I am better off wiping down my shafts and letting them dry naturally than leaving them in a case to dry more slowly.
Hu

I'm not debating this because I'm 95% sure I'm right. I have maintained from the very beginning that the more air circulation around a cue, the less likely it is to absorb moisture resulting in warping as in a snug fitting fully padded liner that becomes a moisture magnet once moisture is introduced from sweaty hands on a linen wrap.

 

[chefjeff]

OK, then....I want a case with a dehumidifier in it.

Oh...and an electrical cord long enough to get me to the pool hall.

Santa, are you listening?

Jeff Livingston

 

[ShootingArts]

a little bit apples and oranges here

I'm not debating this because I'm 95% sure I'm right. I have maintained from the very beginning that the more air circulation around a cue, the less likely it is to absorb moisture resulting in warping as in a snug fitting fully padded liner that becomes a moisture magnet once moisture is introduced from sweaty hands on a linen wrap.

Jack,

I had issues with my shafts in one of the fitted tube cases. To make matters worse I use a parabolic arc on the joint end of most of my shafts making them fit the tubes snuggly for some distance. I tend to sweat when I am practicing so I suspect shafts and butt get at least a little damp and in the past I have simply stood my loaded case in the corner and forgotten about it until I was ready to go shoot pool again.

Someone else at the same pool hall uses one of your cases with no complaints. However to be fair to John, he doesn't sweat as much as I do and being an every day player his cue comes out of the case every day.

Hu

 

[poolpro]

John,

The main factors are indeed how the cue is made, and how it is treated. A person playing in short sessions of 68 degree air conditioning isn't going to expose the cue to the moisture of someone playing in the tropics for hours without climate control.

We do know exactly the conditions needed to create water vapor in the case or at least tables or formulas are readily available. It is up to the individual in possession of the case if these conditions will be met. I live in South Louisiana which is almost on the line between the tropics and subtropics and I know what happens to anything damp down here in a closed container. Assuming it is exposed to open air now and then there is no question of if bad things happen, only when.

Hu

I will agree with the cue as being more important to how it will stand up under certain conditions.

I live in South FL. I once left my cue case in my trunk. I had a soft sided silver fox case at the time. I had a couple of Jacoby cues in the case along with my girlfriends cheaper cue ( I can't even remember the maker).

Well her shaft warped terribly. Mine were still straight as the day I bought them. So this was kind of an unintentional experiment that I hope to never repeat. The point is that all 3 cues were in the same case and exposed to the same conditions. Maybe if you had the cheap cue in a good case and it warped you may feel the case was a factor when you did not have a control of a better made cue. In this instance, the diifference was clearly the quality of the cues construction.




Hey JB, I just bought a talisman tribal 3x5 case. You mentioned them once in a prior post. Just curious on your thoughts on them?




Jw