Fit and Finish.

[asiasdad]

JMO:

I own 2 old metal wrapped in vinyl McDermott cases
one old Centennial case, and one Whitten 42-F case.

none of which cost 500. In fact the first 3 cost me
less than 100.00 each.

All of them protect the cues, only the Centennial
has to be handled with real care.

Like pool cues, once you spend anymore than
(insert price point here) all you're doing is buying
penis inches of ego, nothing more.

 

[JB Cases]

I'm not debating this because I'm 95% sure I'm right. I have maintained from the very beginning that the more air circulation around a cue, the less likely it is to absorb moisture resulting in warping as in a snug fitting fully padded liner that becomes a moisture magnet once moisture is introduced from sweaty hands on a linen wrap.

If you're right then how do you explain all the gunstocks, musical instruments, and other wooden products that are stored in form fitting cases with little to no air circulation which do not warp?

How do you explain all the people who store their cues and other wood products in form fitted suitcase style cases who have no problems?

The fact is that you may be convinced that you are right but you, along with the rest of us have no clue what happens and to what degree to a cue under x-conditions.

I mean if someone were to claim that their cue warped while in your case you would say that the construction of the cue was the problem but if it doesn't warp then you seem to want to say it's because your case is looser and allows air circulation ( it doesn't by the way). So essentially you want to have it all here in this regard.

The fact is that no one has done and QUALIFIED and CONTROLLED experiments on the inner climate of a cue case. So no one knows exactly what happens.

However to continue along the line of theorizing about it then if you say that your case allows cues to dry out through convection then it follows that your case is removing moisture from the cue which is just as bad as excess moisture.

At the beginning of the moisture section of this thread I provided three links that explained moisture content in wood and one of those links concluded that the best situation was to build with a certain moisture level in mind and to maintain that moisture level whenever possible.

Thus IF we are to accept that conclusion then it's definitely better to have a case which keeps the cue in a sealed environment rather than something which allows air to circulate and thus dry out the cue. However I am just guessing based on the available information out there on this subject.

 

[poolpro]

Sorry, so long.... but

I'm not debating this because I'm 95% sure I'm right. I have maintained from the very beginning that the more air circulation around a cue, the less likely it is to absorb moisture resulting in warping as in a snug fitting fully padded liner that becomes a moisture magnet once moisture is introduced from sweaty hands on a linen wrap.

I would like to comment on this statement. I think there is certainly something to it. I am not certain as to how it applies specifically to cues in a case, but I would like to share something on this topic.

I work as a certified water damage restoration technician in South Florida.
I deal with moisture and humidity and damages caused by moisture and humidity everyday.

In the instance of a flood and increased humidity levels and saturation ( in the air and in the structure such as drywall and wood studs, etc). AIRLOW IS VERY IMPORTANT! I place commercial dehumidifiers AND blowers and fans to help drying.

AIRFLOW CREATES EVAPORATION. I create a controlled closed drying system in the building. I close all doors and window to keep out the very humid florida climate. The blowers and air movers create airflow which increase the rate of evaporation and pulls the moisture out of the structure and materials and puts it into the air. Then the dehumidifiers pull that moisture out of the air and drains it to a sink or tub, etc. This is the process we use to quickly remove moisture and prevent a mold situation. I also will drill holes in the wall and blow air into the walls to dry it out at a much faster rate.

I monitor and record the conditions everyday to see what results I am getting and to see if I am achieving my goals. I get to see exactly what different methods accomplish in an unbiased and scientific manner. I use a control reading from an unaffected area to measure against.


I also play guitar and deal with guitars which are much easier to see the effects of changing climates. You have a string that is in tune, it will go out of tune if the materials change rapidly. It is a more obvious and more measureable way of seeing the effects of the conditions. I used to live in Chicago. I was a firm believer in bringing in my gear from the car in the winter time and letting them gradually warm up. I would let the guitar in stay in the case for at least 15-30 minutes before opening it. And with tube amps you must let them cool down before bringing them out after playing or the tubes can break.


I do not think it is the varying climate conditions so much as the RATE of change in the climate. Quick extreme changes are dangerous. Slow and moderate changes are not much of a problem.

So JB, maybe a case design that slows down the rate of moisture transfer may be a better option than a case that could eliminate it. If I put my cue in a case in a very dry enviroment, and it were to stay suspended in that very low humidity enviroment. Then I open the airtight case in a very wet enviroment, I am now exposing my cue to a very rapid moisture change all at once. I think this has much more potential for damage, then a gradual equalization between the two climates. In fact, I am sure of it.


Hey, maybe we could arrange some experiments. I am in a unique position and have the monitoring equipment to record unbiased data of the results. Pm me, let me know! It could be interesting!



Jw

 

[poolpro]

JB,

Let me say I am not picking sides on this topic. I am not for or against you or your case design. I am just puttin in my two cents. I really like your passion for what you do. I know it rubs a lot of people the wrong way, but I get it and appreciate it.

I am interested in where the data leads, NOT in proving or disproving a postion.


The info I gave is dealing with an already wet situation and the drying of those materials, NOT with an already dry item.

I will think about this some more and see what I can come up with as to how it would apply to this specific situation. Much of it is the same as far as rates of absorption and evaporattion, etc.



Jw

 

[JB Cases]

John,

As odd as it may sound, the answer to your question is yes. The case gave protection from warping due to mechanical conditions to one cue and failed to give protection from warping due to climate conditions to the other.

There is the rub for case makers, the case must offer the vast majority of people a safe place for their cues under "normal conditions", and normal conditions vary widely. You can make the best case in the world and if five to ten percent of your customers are unhappy you are unlikely to survive as a business.

In the conditions I play in during the summer months it seems I am making a moisture chamber out of my cue case and causing warpage. The shafts that aren't in use are simply stored vertically in coated wire racks with plenty of room for air circulation around them and I don't have warpage issues with these shafts. This is the same manner in which I store raw shaft blanks, dozens and dozens of them, without issues.

The fact that the shafts in my case straightened all by themselves as conditions changed is a very strong indication that my shafts warped due to moisture or lack of it, not mechanical causes. The shafts and entire cues are going to be subjected to very high moisture conditions for hours every time I go to the pool hall in the summer, no question. That is the real world conditions my cues have to operate in. The question is what do I need to do after leaving the pool hall? This summer I am going to try dropping my shafts in my standard vertical wood storage racks and see if they warp. My gut feeling is that I am better off wiping down my shafts and letting them dry naturally than leaving them in a case to dry more slowly.

Hu

Hu, I have to respectfully disagree. The science disagree with you. A force applies itself to all things equally and the resulting difference in distortion is ONLY a result of the properties of the objects to which the force was applied. You can find no scientific example to illustrate anything different.

If a cue case traps x-amount of moisture inside it then that moisture is all you have to work with. Certainly you can design experiments that apply force such as heat unevenly but for the most part with normal use all the cues held in a case will be subject to the same conditions.

How they react is due to the construction of the cue and nothing else. Now if you have a cue that is prone to warping then it's fair to say that there has to be some kind of container that will slow down or stop the cue from warping. But the fact is that we don't know what that container is yet.

We can use noodles as an example. When I take them out of the package they have a certain moisture content. If I then place one in a tupperware container it will maintain the moisture content that it had when sealed up. Take another piece and put it up in the cabinet and another piece on top of the dishwasher.

In all three situations the pieces of pasta will end up having different moisture contents despite being in the same kitchen. How much different however is beyond my capabilities to measure. It's clear that pool cues are far more complex than a piece of pasta and as such it's not in our capabilities to determine with any certainty what happens.

I am 95% right that we are all ignorant of what really happens in regard to moisture inside a cue case. In the past I have made statements like "protects against excess moisture" - in light of the fact that I now know that I don't REALLY know then I have to amend those statements with a prefix to say "I think, or it's my opinion that, or I don't really know....."

Having said that I would bet LARGE that I am the only cue case maker who has done actual experiments, however primitive and uncontrolled, to see what happens.

 

[ShootingArts]

moisture

John,

We can say we don't know what happens inside a cue case because a cue case hasn't been tested before to our knowledge. However, millions have been spent on studies concerning moisture and we can learn from them.

As many of the posts in this thread have mentioned, moisture is only one factor. What happens when the wrap area is sealed in some places not in others or if a person always indexes his cue to shoot? Uneven moisture indeed can and does cause uneven warpage. Ask any wooden boat builder or anyone who installs wooden floors.

Some cases will have excess moisture introduced inside them. There is no "if" about it, this happens every day somewhere. What happens next is the real question. Do we leave the moisture trapped in the case or do we allow it to escape? Over fifty years of dealing with sealed and unsealed containers in the deep south tells me we are best off letting it escape.

Hu

Hu, I have to respectfully disagree. The science disagree with you. A force applies itself to all things equally and the resulting difference in distortion is ONLY a result of the properties of the objects to which the force was applied. You can find no scientific example to illustrate anything different.

If a cue case traps x-amount of moisture inside it then that moisture is all you have to work with. Certainly you can design experiments that apply force such as heat unevenly but for the most part with normal use all the cues held in a case will be subject to the same conditions.

How they react is due to the construction of the cue and nothing else. Now if you have a cue that is prone to warping then it's fair to say that there has to be some kind of container that will slow down or stop the cue from warping. But the fact is that we don't know what that container is yet.

We can use noodles as an example. When I take them out of the package they have a certain moisture content. If I then place one in a tupperware container it will maintain the moisture content that it had when sealed up. Take another piece and put it up in the cabinet and another piece on top of the dishwasher.

In all three situations the pieces of pasta will end up having different moisture contents despite being in the same kitchen. How much different however is beyond my capabilities to measure. It's clear that pool cues are far more complex than a piece of pasta and as such it's not in our capabilities to determine with any certainty what happens.

I am 95% right that we are all ignorant of what really happens in regard to moisture inside a cue case. In the past I have made statements like "protects against excess moisture" - in light of the fact that I now know that I don't REALLY know then I have to amend those statements with a prefix to say "I think, or it's my opinion that, or I don't really know....."

Having said that I would bet LARGE that I am the only cue case maker who has done actual experiments, however primitive and uncontrolled, to see what happens.

 

[JB Cases]

I would like to comment on this statement. I think there is certainly something to it. I am not certain as to how it applies specifically to cues in a case, but I would like to share something on this topic.

I work as a certified water damage restoration technician in South Florida.
I deal with moisture and humidity and damages caused by moisture and humidity everyday.

In the instance of a flood and increased humidity levels and saturation ( in the air and in the structure such as drywall and wood studs, etc). AIRLOW IS VERY IMPORTANT! I place commercial dehumidifiers AND blowers and fans to help drying.

AIRFLOW CREATES EVAPORATION. I create a controlled closed drying system in the building. I close all doors and window to keep out the very humid florida climate. The blowers and air movers create airflow which increase the rate of evaporation and pulls the moisture out of the structure and materials and puts it into the air. Then the dehumidifiers pull that moisture out of the air and drains it to a sink or tub, etc. This is the process we use to quickly remove moisture and prevent a mold situation. I also will drill holes in the wall and blow air into the walls to dry it out at a much faster rate.

I monitor and record the conditions everyday to see what results I am getting and to see if I am achieving my goals. I get to see exactly what different methods accomplish in an unbiased and scientific manner. I use a control reading from an unaffected area to measure against.

Well at least we have someone here who deals with moisture.

I agree that airflow facilitates evaporation. However the interior of a case does not provide airflow. Whether it's a case with loose tubes like the old Justis cases or the new ones with the fabric interiors there is nothing to force airflow throughout the case such as you do with the blowing fans.

As I said though I don't think that any us can really KNOW what effect certain humidity levels do to pool cues. We just can't without some serious testing on the subject with lots of samples and taking into account the variables in cue and case construction.

No one is going to undertake this test. We all have anecdotal evidence that shows us that cue construction is the biggest factor and not case construction as pertains to protection from moisture. All of us have stories of cues kept in x-brand case for a hundred years that is still dead straight while we can point to other stories of cues kept in x-brand that warped in a few days. I mean we all have our stories.

When I owned Instroke I often traded for cues. So I often had anywhere from $15k on the low end to around $50K on the high end of cues traveling with me all over Europe and the world. One of my friends who deals in mid range to high end cues travels with around one hundred cues to shows all around the country.

I think that it's really fair to say that we just don't know what's best despite what we think it is.

It's not a question of whether I am right or Mr. Justis is right on the protection against excess moisture aspect. It's really that both of us and just about every cue case maker doesn't really know what the answer is.

How do you adequately protect against something with so many variables to it? You can't.

I don't have a way to influence what the cue maker does and how well they season their wood and choose their glues and what tolerances that they use in their construction.

I choose to use fabric that doesn't absorb very much moisture. I chose this over felt because felt does trap moisture. I know this only because of primitive experiments I have done using a glass of water, sunlight, and fabric pieces. In the past 18 years I have, as had Mr. Justis, plenty of folks who have testified that they have used their Instroke cases without any problems whatsoever. So I think that the fact that you have two casemakers who make the same style of case but have opposing views on how the interior should be built has already been a perfect natural experiment. The data, in the form of no plethora of reports one way or the other suggests that neither method of interior construction is particularly better or worse than the other in regards to the question of moisture protection.

I also play guitar and deal with guitars which are much easier to see the effects of changing climates. You have a string that is in tune, it will go out of tune if the materials change rapidly. It is a more obvious and more measureable way of seeing the effects of the conditions. I used to live in Chicago. I was a firm believer in bringing in my gear from the car in the winter time and letting them gradually warm up. I would let the guitar in stay in the case for at least 15-30 minutes before opening it. And with tube amps you must let them cool down before bringing them out after playing or the tubes can break.

I have read that this is considered good practice among musicians. And perhaps it's good practice for pool players as well. Bob Runde has certainly drawn parallels to instrument making in his cue making. It is perhaps no coincidence that his old Schon cues are one of the brands known for their ability to withstand climate change and stay straight.

I do not think it is the varying climate conditions so much as the RATE of change in the climate. Quick extreme changes are dangerous. Slow and moderate changes are not much of a problem.

That could be. My point is that none of us really knows this as pertains to pool cues. Again with the anecdotes all of us know the hustler who walks in from the freezing cold with his thin black plastic case and screws together his cue and immediately starts running racks.

So JB, maybe a case design that slows down the rate of moisture transfer may be a better option than a case that could eliminate it. If I put my cue in a case in a very dry enviroment, and it were to stay suspended in that very low humidity enviroment.

Then I open the airtight case in a very wet enviroment, I am now exposing my cue to a very rapid moisture change all at once. I think this has much more potential for damage, then a gradual equalization between the two climates. In fact, I am sure of it.

The key words here are "maybe" and "potential" and "if". Meaning that we just don't know.

Let's say you walk outside from a dry room into fog. You open your case, pull out your cue and stand there for a few minutes and then go back inside. You dry off the cue as it has dew drops on it from the fog and then ask yourself what is the state of this cue internally now as opposed to BEFORE I went outside?

Answer: You don't know without being able to test it and futhermore you don't know if it really matters or not. I for one don't believe that such exposure does anything negative to the cue. I think that a pool cue needs to be exposed to persistent forces of expansion and contraction to affect it adversely. Such as car trunks which reach very high temperatures when standing in the sun.

Hey, maybe we could arrange some experiments. I am in a unique position and have the monitoring equipment to record unbiased data of the results. Pm me, let me know! It could be interesting!
Jw

I am willing to supply cases made with the interiors I typically build as well as one with the same interior construction as that which Mr. Justis builds. I will also supply interiors made with the Multi-tube method. You have to tell us how you will do the testing and in what time frame. I will pay you for your time with a case that uses the interior of your choosing.

 

[JB Cases]

John,

We can say we don't know what happens inside a cue case because a cue case hasn't been tested before to our knowledge. However, millions have been spent on studies concerning moisture and we can learn from them.

As many of the posts in this thread have mentioned, moisture is only one factor. What happens when the wrap area is sealed in some places not in others or if a person always indexes his cue to shoot? Uneven moisture indeed can and does cause uneven warpage. Ask any wooden boat builder or anyone who installs wooden floors.

Some cases will have excess moisture introduced inside them. There is no "if" about it, this happens every day somewhere. What happens next is the real question. Do we leave the moisture trapped in the case or do we allow it to escape? Over fifty years of dealing with sealed and unsealed containers in the deep south tells me we are best off letting it escape.

Hu

I come from the deeper South than you do. I was raised in South Florida. I currently live on an island.

Fellini, It's George, Ron Thomas, and Centennial are all examples of cases which are practically sealed. Huebler and O'Neil are examples of suitcase style cases which wrap the cue in material and foam and do not allow the moisture to escape.

I think that the evidence has shown that none of these cases has been linked to an epidemic of damaged cues.

So the fact remains that what you believe to be the "best" way to transport pool cues in regards to moisture may not be the best way. In fact it may not matter at all how you do it.

As for the studies I have already quoted one paper on the subject that seems to indicate that a case which holds the moisture level at approximately the moisture level the product was made at, which is typically around 8% according to the paper, is probably the best practice.

But as I have already said, I don't know and neither do you. Both of us hold our opinions based only on our own anecdotal experience, not based on the science. And I have had plenty of experience transporting cues in various containers around the world for more than 20 years.

 

[poolpro]

Well at least we have someone here who deals with moisture.

I agree that airflow facilitates evaporation. However the interior of a case does not provide airflow. Whether it's a case with loose tubes like the old Justis cases or the new ones with the fabric interiors there is nothing to force airflow throughout the case such as you do with the blowing fans.

As I said though I don't think that any us can really KNOW what effect certain humidity levels do to pool cues. We just can't without some serious testing on the subject with lots of samples and taking into account the variables in cue and case construction.

No one is going to undertake this test. We all have anecdotal evidence that shows us that cue construction is the biggest factor and not case construction as pertains to protection from moisture. All of us have stories of cues kept in x-brand case for a hundred years that is still dead straight while we can point to other stories of cues kept in x-brand that warped in a few days. I mean we all have our stories.

When I owned Instroke I often traded for cues. So I often had anywhere from $15k on the low end to around $50K on the high end of cues traveling with me all over Europe and the world. One of my friends who deals in mid range to high end cues travels with around one hundred cues to shows all around the country.

I think that it's really fair to say that we just don't know what's best despite what we think it is.

It's not a question of whether I am right or Mr. Justis is right on the protection against excess moisture aspect. It's really that both of us and just about every cue case maker doesn't really know what the answer is.

How do you adequately protect against something with so many variables to it? You can't.

I don't have a way to influence what the cue maker does and how well they season their wood and choose their glues and what tolerances that they use in their construction.

I choose to use fabric that doesn't absorb very much moisture. I chose this over felt because felt does trap moisture. I know this only because of primitive experiments I have done using a glass of water, sunlight, and fabric pieces. In the past 18 years I have, as had Mr. Justis, plenty of folks who have testified that they have used their Instroke cases without any problems whatsoever. So I think that the fact that you have two casemakers who make the same style of case but have opposing views on how the interior should be built has already been a perfect natural experiment. The data, in the form of no plethora of reports one way or the other suggests that neither method of interior construction is particularly better or worse than the other.




I have read that this is considered good practice among musicians. And perhaps it's good practice for pool players as well. Bob Runde has certainly drawn parallels to instrument making in his cue making. It is perhaps no coincidence that his old Schon cues are one of the brands known for their ability to withstand climate change and stay straight.



That could be. My point is that none of us really knows this as pertains to pool cues. Again with the anecdotes all of us know the hustler who walks in from the freezing cold with his thin black plastic case and screws together his cue and immediately starts running racks.



The key words here are "maybe" and "potential" and "if". Meaning that we just don't know.

Let's say you walk outside from a dry room into fog. You open your case, pull out your cue and stand there for a few minutes and then go back inside. You dry off the cue as it has dew drops on it from the fog and then ask yourself what is the state of this cue internally now as opposed to BEFORE I went outside?

Answer: You don't know without being able to test it and futhermore you don't know if it really matters or not. I for one don't believe that such exposure does anything negative to the cue. I think that a pool cue needs to be exposed to persistent forces of expansion and contraction to affect it adversely. Such as car trunks which reach very high temperatures when standing in the sun.



I am willing to supply cases made with the interiors I typically build as well as one with the same interior construction as that which Mr. Justis builds. I will also supply interiors made with the Multi-tube method. You have to tell us how you will do the testing and in what time frame. I will pay you for your time with a case that uses the interior of your choosing.

Well now that sounds like a generous offer! I would love to take you up on it. Give me a bit of time to come up with a suitable testing enviroment and method. Give me your thoughts and suggestions.

I can measure the level of moisture in wood, and can also measure the rate of absorption by checking at differing intervals. I am thinking that unfinished wood would be most suitable for this. I can also measure the ambient air conditions inside the case. Though every time I would open the case it will equalize between the air inside and the air outside of the case. Actually, I do have a meter with a thin shaft that actually reads the air, and the display is on the main part of the meter. So if we put a hole just large enough for the shaft to enter, we could seal it at the opening and then take readings without disturbing the conditions.

Give me a bit to think all of this through more thoroughly, and suggestions are very welcome.


I think this kind of experiment can be helpful for you and give you at leasy some actual objective data to point to. So we can then say with a bit more confidence what kind of interior would cause or eliminate certain conditions inside a case. Of course, what this translates to as far as what it does to a pool cue would still be outside of the scope of this trial, and would remain an entirely separate discussion.

I do not think that the cue's integrety really comes into play as far as what you are trying to accomplish. I think we are in agreement that it is prob one of the most ( if not THE most) important factor as to how a cue will hold up.

Your job as a case maker would be to provide the best possible case for all cues. You are providing the best possible environment, and the least likely one for damage to occur. The rest of the varibles as far as cue construction are out of your control, and do not factor in.

I mean we know that fire is not good for cues. It does not matter that my cue may be more resistant to fire than yours, we agree that keeping it away from open flames are a good policy. Your job would be the same as keeping it away from open flames, regardless of the cues construction.



Jw

 

[ShootingArts]

your own words

I come from the deeper South than you do. I was raised in South Florida. I currently live on an island.

Fellini, It's George, Ron Thomas, and Centennial are all examples of cases which are practically sealed. Huebler and O'Neil are examples of suitcase style cases which wrap the cue in material and foam and do not allow the moisture to escape.

I think that the evidence has shown that none of these cases has been linked to an epidemic of damaged cues.

So the fact remains that what you believe to be the "best" way to transport pool cues in regards to moisture may not be the best way. In fact it may not matter at all how you do it.

As for the studies I have already quoted one paper on the subject that seems to indicate that a case which holds the moisture level at approximately the moisture level the product was made at, which is typically around 8% according to the paper, is probably the best practice.

But as I have already said, I don't know and neither do you. Both of us hold our opinions based only on our own anecdotal experience, not based on the science. And I have had plenty of experience transporting cues in various containers around the world for more than 20 years.

John,

The catch is that many of us are not going to hold the cue at 8% moisture but at a much higher content if we simply seal a cue in a case after use. The study you found seems to condemn the practice of sealing a damp cue in a fairly form fitting closed chamber. I introduce a far higher moisture level than 8% in my cue case every time I play pool in the summer. Do I leave that high moisture content in the case or do I open the case to let it dry to air conditioned room moisture content and do the same thing with my cues and shafts?

Hu

 

[JB Cases]

Well now that sounds like a generous offer! I would love to take you up on it. Give me a bit of time to come up with a suitable testing enviroment and method. Give me your thoughts and suggestions.

I can measure the level of moisture in wood, and can also measure the rate of absorption by checking at differing intervals. I am thinking that unfinished wood would be most suitable for this. I can also measure the ambient air conditions inside the case. Though every time I would open the case it will equalize between the air inside and the air outside of the case. Actually, I do have a meter with a thin shaft that actually reads the air, and the display is on the main part of the meter. So if we put a hole just large enough for the shaft to enter, we could seal it at the opening and then take readings without disturbing the conditions.

Give me a bit to think all of this through more thoroughly, and suggestions are very welcome.


I think this kind of experiment can be helpful for you and give you at leasy some actual objective data to point to. So we can then say with a bit more confidence what kind of interior would cause or eliminate certain conditions inside a case. Of course, what this translates to as far as what it does to a pool cue would still be outside of the scope of this trial, and would remain an entirely separate discussion.

I do not think that the cue's integrety really comes into play as far as what you are trying to accomplish. I think we are in agreement that it is prob one of the most ( if not THE most) important factor as to how a cue will hold up.

Your job as a case maker would be to provide the best possible case for all cues. You are providing the best possible environment, and the least likely one for damage to occur. The rest of the varibles as far as cue construction are out of your control, and do not factor in.

I mean we know that fire is not good for cues. It does not matter that my cue may be more resistant to fire than yours, we agree that keeping it away from open flames are a good policy. Your job would be the same as keeping it away from open flames, regardless of the cues construction.



Jw

To me the whole discussion centers on what affect the storage environment has on the cue. We can measure the humidity inside cases when they are indoors, take them outside and put them in the sun and see what the heat does to the humidity.

My point is that even if we get all these readings we still don't know the affect on the cue.

Doing it with raw wood doesn't work because the item being stored is not raw wood. Although I do think that we certainly can get some good data through using raw wood but it must be disclaimed that the data is of no value to how the case will affect any particular finished cue.

I will still be interested in knowing what you come up with.

I found this website which has a good diagram of the American Heritage guitar cases. http://www.finecases.com/browse/cases/guitar-family.html

As one can see from the interactive image this case provides not only generous amounts of padding but also a full seal around the perimeter.

I tend to think that guitars are more sensitive to moisture than pool cues are. Again I don't know that for sure. But the point I want to make is that guitar cases come in all types from simple nylon bags to this type of fully padded and sealed hard case.

I do have the feeling that this discussion is giving people the impression that this is a big deal. I think that moisture is a big deal but not in the same way that some people think it is.

I don't think it's a big deal to walk from your house to the pool room in the rain. I don't think that the cue is changing or moving in any perceptible manner in that space of time and through those changing conditions.

I don't think that going from your house to the car is a big deal.

From personal experience I don't think that keeping the cues in the car is a big deal. I have owned dozens of cue brands and nearly all of them have spent the night in the car at least once and many of them lived there.

I have submerged a case in the swimming pool.

Once, at the US Open I was in the rotunda and I was telling a person that our cases would keep his cues dry if it got wet on the outside and that the water wouldn't hurt the leather. He challenged that statement.

Since it was pouring rain outside I asked him to pick any case off the wall.

He picked a $430 Limited Edition 3x7 made with Nubuk leather. Nubuk is a fine nap suede. The case was black and blue.

I got my personal cues and put them into the case and took it outside and stood it in the pouring rain. People were coming in and looking at the case and several times I had to ask people to leave it alone. We left it there for about five minutes.

When I brought it in I wiped it down and opened it. Cues were perfectly dry, no moisture on them whatsoever. I told the customer to come back and look at the wet case in about 15-30 minutes. He did and the case was dry with not a water mark on it.

So, again, figure out what you want to do but do it in as scientific and controlled way as you can. I want the data to help all case makers to improve their products.

Let me know how you want to proceed.

 

[JB Cases]

Check this out:

http://www.finecases.com/resources/B0047/popups/am_cutaway.html?showlink=true

This case comes with a moisture control unit.

Here is a page where they discuss this system in more detail, good information here. http://www.ameritagecases.com/faq.php#humidity

How about that?

 

[JB Cases]

Padding or Not?

To bring this discussion back on track I dissected the case that prompted this thread and I have to say that I was as disappointed in the interior construction as the exterior.

Thin plastic tubes, no padding, nylon liner, and way undersized.

Looking at all these musical instrument cases while researching the wood/humidity question I see that almost all of them are form fitted and padded.

I have always maintained that a padded case is better.

Some of my competitors including Mr. Justis as the most prominent among them do not feel that this is important in a pool cue case.

My question to them and the rest of you is if it's not important why does the rest of the world make fitted and padded cases for their gear?

Drive around the web a little bit and you will rarely find any case made for anything of importance that allows the thing it holds to rattle around. In fact most things that aren't even that expensive or particularly fragile are kept in form fitted and padded cases.

So why is it that you, the buying public sacrifices this important protective aspect in the name of buying a "name" or a pretty case?

Fellow case makers why don't you offer the same basic protection that consumers get in just about every other kind of cases made?

 

[JB Cases]

Think protection doesn't matter - How important is your cue to you?

Read this about guitar owners who have been very happy to see that their tough protective cases did the job.

http://www.caltoncases.com/Testimonials.html

You travel with your cues. Think about it.

 

[JB Cases]

Merry Christmas.

My Christmas gift to you all is that I am not going to change a thing on how my cases are built.

I am going to change my ways about communicating and designing to get more cases done.

I am 100% right that the way I build cue cases is better than the sloppy way some of my competitors do it.

I will never be able to stop people from building crap and advertising it as if it were chocolate mousse. I will never be able to stop people from buying into the hype and then turning around and perpetuating it so that they can recoup some of their money and dignity.

But I will be able to continue building the type of cue case that protects as a cue case should protect.

Reading about these guitar cases has solidified that more than ever. People who buy fine wood instruments choose padded cases for their prized instruments and I will provide no less for your pool cues.

Best to you all and discuss amongst yourselves. I am done with this thread and AZ for a while to focus on my customers and my case output.

Karen and I will still be here to show off the latest work or handle the odd customer question.

I promise in 2010 not to bug you all though with the infomercials.

Best to everyone and have a safe and happy New Year!

John Barton

 

[poolpro]

To me the whole discussion centers on what affect the storage environment has on the cue. We can measure the humidity inside cases when they are indoors, take them outside and put them in the sun and see what the heat does to the humidity.

My point is that even if we get all these readings we still don't know the affect on the cue.

Doing it with raw wood doesn't work because the item being stored is not raw wood. Although I do think that we certainly can get some good data through using raw wood but it must be disclaimed that the data is of no value to how the case will affect any particular finished cue.

I will still be interested in knowing what you come up with.

I found this website which has a good diagram of the American Heritage guitar cases. http://www.finecases.com/browse/cases/guitar-family.html

As one can see from the interactive image this case provides not only generous amounts of padding but also a full seal around the perimeter.

I tend to think that guitars are more sensitive to moisture than pool cues are. Again I don't know that for sure. But the point I want to make is that guitar cases come in all types from simple nylon bags to this type of fully padded and sealed hard case.

I do have the feeling that this discussion is giving people the impression that this is a big deal. I think that moisture is a big deal but not in the same way that some people think it is.

I don't think it's a big deal to walk from your house to the pool room in the rain. I don't think that the cue is changing or moving in any perceptible manner in that space of time and through those changing conditions.

I don't think that going from your house to the car is a big deal.

From personal experience I don't think that keeping the cues in the car is a big deal. I have owned dozens of cue brands and nearly all of them have spent the night in the car at least once and many of them lived there.

I have submerged a case in the swimming pool.

Once, at the US Open I was in the rotunda and I was telling a person that our cases would keep his cues dry if it got wet on the outside and that the water wouldn't hurt the leather. He challenged that statement.

Since it was pouring rain outside I asked him to pick any case off the wall.

He picked a $430 Limited Edition 3x7 made with Nubuk leather. Nubuk is a fine nap suede. The case was black and blue.

I got my personal cues and put them into the case and took it outside and stood it in the pouring rain. People were coming in and looking at the case and several times I had to ask people to leave it alone. We left it there for about five minutes.

When I brought it in I wiped it down and opened it. Cues were perfectly dry, no moisture on them whatsoever. I told the customer to come back and look at the wet case in about 15-30 minutes. He did and the case was dry with not a water mark on it.

So, again, figure out what you want to do but do it in as scientific and controlled way as you can. I want the data to help all case makers to improve their products.

Let me know how you want to proceed.

I agree with most of what you are saying here. I do believe that guitars are more affected by climate changes. I have had much more evidence of changes to my guitars than cues. There are metal parts that show corrosion. The finish tends to crack and lift, etc. Older guitars have nitro cellulose laquer on them which is much thinner than what you find on cues. It is mostly believed that thinner finishes allow the wood to vibrate more resulting in better tone ( especially on acoustic guitars). Also note that too dry of conditions adversly affect guitars as much or more than too wet. They make humidifiers that keep the moisture level more constant while being stored in its case.

Anyways, I do not want to derail the thread too much from its original topic. I can definately get you some good data, and help you get an idea of what it may mean. How you use it is up to you. I will document it as well as I can with some pics and detailed records.

As far as humidity is concerned, I will also give you specific humidity readings ( recorded as GPP or - grains per pound). Almost always when discussing humidity, it is referring to relative humidity ( meaning relative to the temp). Warmer air can hold more water, therefore a relative humidity of 60% at 100 F is much wetter than 60% RH at 40 F. GPP readings ( or specific humidity is a better way of comparing apples to appples. GPP is an actual weight measurement of the moisture in a cubic foot of air. When we convert the readings to GPP we can get a much clearer idea of the comparison between two readings.




Jw

 

[poolpro]

Check this out:

http://www.finecases.com/resources/B0047/popups/am_cutaway.html?showlink=true

This case comes with a moisture control unit.

Here is a page where they discuss this system in more detail, good information here. http://www.ameritagecases.com/faq.php#humidity

How about that?

I do find it interesting that they have a sealed closure AND a breathable case material. Again it seems the focus is on preventing drastic sudden changes in temp/humidity rather than eliminating any and all enviromental intrusions.

Breathable would mean that it does allow some enviromental equalization to occur, but doing so in a controlled and gradual manner.

Jw

 

[ShootingArts]

Louisiana State University

LSU did the research years ago and based on their findings they wouldn't buy hay with a moisture content higher than 12% and they preferred around 9% due to the high risk of mold. My own findings with unhappy customers that stored alfalfa for more than a few months down here supported LSU's findings. The farmers wouldn't bail at less than 15% in Oklahoma and New Mexico because they lost too much leaf dryer than that, the hay wouldn't keep down here at 12% or higher. There was some mold even below 12%. That Catch 22 cost me and a partner a nice little income.

I suspect that the best way to store our cues down here is below 12% moisture content to prevent most mold and mildew, I don't know where it needs to be at to prevent warping. I do know that my shafts don't warp stored in my racks in air conditioned and dehumidified air and they did warp stored in my case.

When I play with a cue I'm going to let it and the open case dry in room air for a few days before placing it back in the case if I choose to. Seems like the wisest option and it only takes a few minutes. Can't hurt anything if you have a safe place to store the cues and all indications are that it will help.

Hu