For Billiards Survival - We need:

CrownCityCorey

Sock it to 'em!
Silver Member
I was replying to a rep comment in a PM, when it dawned on me that these points were too important to keep in a PM.

What Billiards needs to flourish as a sport and industry:

  • In ideaology, it is simply "organization."

  • Following organization, it still takes time and unified effort to develop.

  • To keep the bond / unity, and organization together we need great leadership.

Great leaders, still humans, want to see results. Herding the "feline like" nature of billiards enthusiasts will test anyone's mettle.


  • That leader must possess: vision, passion, and extreme tolerance.

We have yet to see the above in billiards, ever!

All we have ever done is as a "by-product" of others fortune caused by their industry's growth or socio-economic condition.

We have to do it ourselves, from within. Only then will anyone outside of Billards recognize us in anyway whatsoever! We must prove that we are worthy of notice!

Sincerely,

Corey Harper
 
Very Broad Brush on such a small canvass

As I see it, the retail crowd is still the biggest part of pool.

Yeah, the APA reports 250,000 player playing pool every week.
And the other amature leagues maybe account for another 200,000 players, but the retail crowd still makes the pool room's nuts every week.

IMO 4 divisions of players

1st the retail playes playing once a week at a pool hall and enjoying a night out.

2nd League players (mostly bar, but some Pool hall players)

3rd Tournament players (also can be part of divisions 1 and 2)

4th Pros Men and Women

Divisions 1 and 2 make up the biggest part of the pool playing population and yet are the least recognized by the pool industry. Why is that?


Leadership first needs followers. If the leadership only approaches divisions 3 and 4, that is a very small canvass.

I think Mark Griffin is on the right track, combining Divisions 2, 3 and 4 into a bigger picture and using his huge brush to paint a better picture for the future of pool.
 
CrownCityCorey said:
I was replying to a rep comment in a PM, when it dawned on me that these points were too important to keep in a PM.

What Billiards needs to flourish as a sport and industry:

  • In ideaology, it is simply "organization."

  • Following organization, it still takes time and unified effort to develop.

  • To keep the bond / unity, and organization together we need great leadership.

Great leaders, still humans, want to see results. Herding the "feline like" nature of billiards enthusiasts will test anyone's mettle.


  • That leader must possess: vision, passion, and extreme tolerance.

We have yet to see the above in billiards, ever!

All we have ever done is as a "by-product" of others fortune caused by their industry's growth or socio-economic condition.

We have to do it ourselves, from within. Only then will anyone outside of Billards recognize us in anyway whatsoever! We must prove that we are worthy of notice!

Sincerely,

Corey Harper
Corey, I think you have hit the nail on the head and would be a great choice to be the leader. You are heavily involved with pool while not being totally involoved as players who do nothing else to make a living. That is to say you have a grasp of reality and a personality that might be able to sell pool to like minded sponsors. A pool player will never lead the game out of the desert.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
As I see it, the retail crowd is still the biggest part of pool.

Yeah, the APA reports 250,000 player playing pool every week.
And the other amature leagues maybe account for another 200,000 players, but the retail crowd still makes the pool room's nuts every week.

IMO 4 divisions of players

1st the retail playes playing once a week at a pool hall and enjoying a night out.

2nd League players (mostly bar, but some Pool hall players)

3rd Tournament players (also can be part of divisions 1 and 2)

4th Pros Men and Women

Divisions 1 and 2 make up the biggest part of the pool playing population and yet are the least recognized by the pool industry. Why is that?


Leadership first needs followers. If the leadership only approaches divisions 3 and 4, that is a very small canvass.

I think Mark Griffin is on the right track, combining Divisions 2, 3 and 4 into a bigger picture and using his huge brush to paint a better picture for the future of pool.



I have to respectfully disagree. The retail consumer does next to nothing for the average pros. Not their fault, but the amount of money for sponsorships to both players and tournaments is paltry at best. I used to work in billiards retail, and trust me, they don't care enough to make any difference. I had a discussion once at a Brunswick conference about giving some players a sponsorship(and I was talking a thousand or so in cash, or maybe a table, etc), basically just to legitimize said players, and help the sport. I was told in no uncertain terms that it wouldn't help the bottom line, and was therefore not feasible. This is(or at least was at the time) a fortune 300 company saying 1k was too much to spend, unless it got them in the asian market, which was the plan with the only male they were sponsoring at the time. This is just an example using one of the more prominent companies out there. There are some exceptions, but for the most part the companies DO NOT CARE about anything but their profit margins, which are mostly unaffected by high level pool/players. That is why you need to treat the recreational players as their own category, and the more serious players as their own. Coexistence and cooperation would be helpful, but not necessary, imo. As far as what pool needs, the list is, in my opinion, too long to even post. As someone who has been around it their entire life, in retail, running rooms, and playing for a living(while staying broke :wink: ) for 10 years, I find 90% of pool boring to watch, and so do the majority of people(poolplayers and otherwise) that I know. The only time most of us wil sweat it at all is if it is good gambling. I really believe that the only future for the sport in my lifetime will either be TAR or something in the same vein. I hope that isn't true, but man, is the future bleak. And for the record, I will happily help any endeavor that looks remotely like a good opportunity for the sport, just to prove I don't mean to sound too defeatist. But as of yet, pool has (with few ), gotten worse for pros with every one of the thirty something years I have been alive. Hope it changes, and good luck to all that try to make it happen, Matt
 
Cory,



all that is well and true if there was enough interest, you cant have a govt if there are no citizens. I think having your vision in mind ahead of time is 100% correct, but first things first pool needs particiption. Poker got a huge bump from things outside poker-we should be so luckey. KT almost did it, COM kinda did over 20 years ago, were due!!!

When pool gets going your plans are well thought and need to be implemnted all in due time. But if there are more Chiefs than indians like SOME orginazitions in pool bad things will happen. Or just to many rules and ideas bad things happen too, So I think we need to worry about the population now and the rules later.

I do agree with your fundemental ideas for sure, they are a bit earily to fully implement.

my best

eric

ps sorry i mis-spelled your name ;)
 
A solid post, Corey, and certainly a reasonable argument. I strongly disagree with your analysis if you are including women's pro pool, which has had visionaries, good management, and steady growth for decades, and has helped lead to greater participation in pool among females. I would also disagree with your suggestion that pool hasn't had any visionaries with passion and extreme tolerance, but that's not the focus of my post.

Assuming your post relates to men's pro pool, I still disagree. Pro pool is a product, and to sell a product that hasn't sold as well as one would like, one has just two routes: a) modify the product, or b) develop the demand for the existing product. To me, there is only so much you can do with the product, and to me, debates over whether to play eight ball, nine ball, ten ball, single or double elimination, or on loose or tight pocket equipment are ultimately meaningless. It is for this reason that I feel that the only path to vitalizing pool is to develop the demand for the existing product.

Many of us on the forum have argued that the only path to building demand for the professional pool product is to get the kids invovled in the game. We can introduce the game in the schools and I certainly admire the superb efforts of the Billiard Education Foundation, but that won't be enough. I am among several on this forum that feels that we, in America, are failing miserably in getting the kids involved in the game, and I think its because our poolrooms are kid-unfriendly.

As I noted in a recent post:

sjm said:
.... making the poolroom kid-friendly is the real path to vitalizing the game we love. Others note that pool can be brought into the schools, but cleaning up the image of the poolroom may be necessary before parents and school administrators will buy into the idea.

To me, the presence of the gamblers who try to prey on anyone that walks through the door (in most poolrooms I've ever frequented) ensures that American parents will never have the comfort level with the pool scene to encourage their kids to spend a lot of time in poolrooms. Further damage is done by the the gambler, who is, far too often, dressed in a slovenly manner and is too inclined to be rude and profane, which diminshes the dignity of the poolroom. It is easy to overlook that this tends to scare away many adults, too, and particularly the financially well off, who will choose other leisure-time pursuits such as golf and will dissuade their kids from frequenting the pool room.

Yes, gambling is scaring away the very demographics that pool needs most to thrive, and will continue to do so as long as the predators continue to frequent and be welcomed in the poolrooms of America. This is a big part of the reason that the kids frequenting the pool halls are, so often, those with less education and modest financial means.

It has been discussed on the forum before that even when televised pool attains decent ratings, it attracts demographics that do not represent important consumer groups. That's because we continue to allow the poolroom to be the seedy place that it is and has been for a long time. As long as the poolroom scene remains unchanged, not too many kids will take up the game.

Making poolrooms kid-friendly is fundamental to reversing the disenfrachisement of critical demgraphics that pool needs to attract to thrive in the long-term.

To sum, my feeling is that even exemplary leadership and unity won't be nearly enough to produce significant growth in the game until we make pool a more kid-freindly game. Building demand for the pool product is, in my view, the only path to taking pro pool to the next level.

It's way to easy to assume that all we need is the right salesperson to get this sport rolling in America, but in trying economic times, we need to be wise enough to focus on getting more prople, and the right people, invlolved inthe game.
 
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sjm said:
A solid post, Corey, and certainly a reasonable argument. I strongly disagree with your analysis if you are including women's pro pool, which has had visionaries, good management, and steady growth for decades, and has helped lead to greater participation in pool among females. I would also disagree with your suggestion that pool hasn't had any visionaries with passion and extreme tolerance, but that's not the focus of my post.

Assuming your post relates to men's pro pool, I still disagree. Pro pool is a product, and to sell a product that hasn't sold as well as one would like, one has just two routes: a) modify the product, or b) develop the demand for the existing product. To me, there is only so much you can do with the product, and to me, debates over whether to play eight ball, nine ball, ten ball, single or double elimination, or on loose or tight pocket equipment are ultimately meaningless. It is for this reason that I feel that the only path to vitalizing pool is to develop the demand for the existing product.

Many of us on the forum have argued that the only path to building demand for the professional pool product is to get the kids invovled in the game. We can introduce the game in the schools and I certainly admire the superb efforts of the Billiard Education Foundation, but that won't be enough. I am among several on this forum that feels that we, in America, are failing miserably in getting the kids involved in the game, and I think its because our poolrooms are kid-unfriendly.

As I noted in a recent post:



Making poolrooms kid-friendly is fundamental to reversing the disenfrachisement of critical demgraphics that pool needs to attract to thrive in the long-term.

To sum, my feeling is that even exemplary leadership and unity won't be nearly enough to produce significant growth in the game until we make pool a more kid-freindly game. Building demand for the pool product is, in my view, the only path to taking pro pool to the next level.

It's way to easy to assume that all we need is the right salesperson to get this sport rolling in America, but in trying economic times, we need to be wise enough to focus on getting more prople, and the right people, invlolved inthe game.


Sorry, but I have to post this. This is pure profiling, and ignorant. I have gambled for a living at pool for many years, and to try to characterize all gamblers is just plain stupid. Are there some gamblers that are like you describe? Yes. Do they make up the entire populace, or even the majority? No. Some of us are well educated people that love this sport, but the only way to participate in it and make ANY money is to gamble. Not hustle, but match up and play. And as far as more well off people going to golf, etc, there is FAR more gambling at ANY golf course than at ANY pool room. I play a good bit of golf too(I choose to not gamble at golf, mainly because I don't feel comfortable doing it). That should tell people what gambling is all about. If you are at all uncomfortable with gambling, DON'T DO IT! But that is no reason to blame the problems on those of us that do. The past of pool has been checkered, for sure, but trying to act as if it didn't exist is not a viable option. People who choose to not participate is fine, and healthy, but to criticize what you obviously don't understand is biased and shortsighted, imo.
 
muttley76 said:
This is pure profiling, and ignorant.....Some of us are well educated people that love this sport, but the only way to participate in it and make ANY money is to gamble.

This personal assault is unnecessary. Disagree with me if you like, but try to do so in a respectful manner, rather than reminding me of why I don' post on AZB as often as in the past.

My opinion, right or wrong, is based on forty years around poolrooms, and yes, some of us are educated. I am a graduate of an Ivy League College, and perhaps I'm not quite the ignorant moron you think.
 
The Key

CrownCityCorey said:
. . . All we have ever done is as a "by-product" of others fortune caused by their industry's growth or socio-economic condition.

We have to do it ourselves, from within. Only then will anyone outside of Billards recognize us in anyway whatsoever! We must prove that we are worthy of notice!

Sincerely,

Corey Harper

Corey,

You are absolutely correct, the key is that we have to do things ourselves from within. We want to fly but we don't want to crawl or walk first. The first thing we need is a sellable product and that is something we don't have. The woman's tour is the closest thing we have and if we are honest we will admit that it is because men will watch women doing almost anything, especially if it involves a lot of bending over!

We need a game that can stand on it's own to hold the average viewer's interest, whomever plays it. Then we need players, promoters, and organizations that behave like professionals. The appearance often has to come before the cash.

Real money has to come from advertisers and for the most part that means advertisers that aren't related to pool. Flip the channels and find a NASCAR race. It doesn't matter what class of car or truck you are watching, you see thirty or forty huge billboards with the camera constantly on them if they are running anywhere near the front and every vehicle will be seen in the prerace laps. Too, over forty foot billboards are cruising the highways. NASCAR has big dollar sponsors of every type because they make even more money for the sponsors.

We aren't NASCAR and never are going to be but the core concept is the same. To get major money into pool, we have to give value in return. I have been a sponsor in small ways. Sometimes I did it just for grins. Other times it was for community relations. However when it came time to lay out serious coin I took a very hard look at who and what I was sponsoring. What would my business actually gain sponsoring this deal? What was the potential downside? Was I better served spending my advertising dollar elsewhere? I never found a better place to spend advertising dollars than the local yellow pages back when Ma Bell had 90% of the action sewed up.

Pool has to quit daydreaming about a sugar daddy coming along or a new pool fad and build something real for ourselves. Otherwise in another generation we will still be sitting here daydreaming.

Hu
 
sjm said:
This personal assault is unnecessary. Disagree with me if you like, but try to do so in a respectful manner, rather than reminding me of why I don' post on AZB as often as in the past.

My opinion, right or wrong, is based on forty years around poolrooms, and yes, some of us are educated. I am a graduate of an Ivy League College, and perhaps I'm not quite the ignorant moron you think.


I never said you were ignorant or a moron, I said that it was ignorant to make a broad characterization. And I stand by that. I am not surprised of anyones background or education, because I don't make broad characterizations. Sorry if I offended you, that was't my intent. I just hate it when people make assumptions. No one likes to be pigeon-holed......
 
ShootingArts said:
Corey,

You are absolutely correct, the key is that we have to do things ourselves from within. We want to fly but we don't want to crawl or walk first. The first thing we need is a sellable product and that is something we don't have. The woman's tour is the closest thing we have and if we are honest we will admit that it is because men will watch women doing almost anything, especially if it involves a lot of bending over!

We need a game that can stand on it's own to hold the average viewer's interest, whomever plays it. Then we need players, promoters, and organizations that behave like professionals. The appearance often has to come before the cash.

Real money has to come from advertisers and for the most part that means advertisers that aren't related to pool. Flip the channels and find a NASCAR race. It doesn't matter what class of car or truck you are watching, you see thirty or forty huge billboards with the camera constantly on them if they are running anywhere near the front and every vehicle will be seen in the prerace laps. Too, over forty foot billboards are cruising the highways. NASCAR has big dollar sponsors of every type because they make even more money for the sponsors.

We aren't NASCAR and never are going to be but the core concept is the same. To get major money into pool, we have to give value in return. I have been a sponsor in small ways. Sometimes I did it just for grins. Other times it was for community relations. However when it came time to lay out serious coin I took a very hard look at who and what I was sponsoring. What would my business actually gain sponsoring this deal? What was the potential downside? Was I better served spending my advertising dollar elsewhere? I never found a better place to spend advertising dollars than the local yellow pages back when Ma Bell had 90% of the action sewed up.

Pool has to quit daydreaming about a sugar daddy coming along or a new pool fad and build something real for ourselves. Otherwise in another generation we will still be sitting here daydreaming.
Hu

Very good post. It really is time to take control in setting the direction of our sport and quit daydreaming.

But, too, recruiting big non-industry related US companies at this point is also a daydream. A model, that can be presented to these companies in the future, is what's needed to entice them to jump in. The media values side of the sponsorship scale should offer more bang per advertising $ in the initial offerings until such events are proven to be viable marketing vehicles.
 
failed enterprise

bandido said:
Very good post. It really is time to take control in setting the direction of our sport and quit daydreaming.

But, too, recruiting big non-industry related US companies at this point is also a daydream. A model, that can be presented to these companies in the future, is what's needed to entice them to jump in. The media values side of the sponsorship scale should offer more bang per advertising $ in the initial offerings until such events are proven to be viable marketing vehicles.


Edwin,

First let me say my hat is off to you. You are someone who is working for the betterment of the sport not just sitting on the sidelines daydreaming.

The problem we have with US pool and with pool in much of the world is that it is seen as a minor sport or game. We have the best in the world or very close to it in dozens of lesser known activities. We don't care. People from the USA expect our competitors to be the best and unless it is a sport with major status or media coverage we are largely indifferent to our champions.

Pool here is a failed enterprise in the eyes of outside sponsors. I could roll out an all new sport and have a better chance of selling it to them. No models or projections are going to impress US sponsors. We are going to have to gain enough viewer share to interest smaller sponsors. This will allow us to increase our media exposure and hopefully viewer share attracting larger sponsors. The best hope for pool in the US is this process. It isn't an overnight thing but had we started it a decade or two ago we would be a successful minor sport now.

While we like to compare ourselves to premier sports, I think we are most like bowling. Distinctly blue collar and their growth was very slow. However we can forget about golf for now, it would be great to just be where bowling is at. That I think is possible but not without accepting that we have to get there one small step at a time.

My dream for the near future is for the top fifty players in the US to make a decent living purely from earnings in competition. Unfortunately it is only a dream. In the early 1970's I asked myself if I could make a living competing if I were one of the top fifty players in the US. The answer was no then, it is still no now.

Hu
 
Corey,

This is a great post and there are many great comments.

Yes, the pro players need a professional organization.

I think the WPBA has a long standing reputation as a good organization. I think we can look to their success for some clues as to how to run it. I know there is a thread right now about Jasmine and the suspension the WPBA has dealt her but they have rules. Just because their is another tournament somewhere else doesn't mean you can run off to that and abandon your organization's event. So, there certainly needs to be rules to support loyalty and unity.

Although Kevin Trudeau is not well liked here on this forum I think he made a valiant effort at promoting the sport that was quite sensationalized. This sensationalized effort was really a business failure I am sure or else he would have done it again. It wasn't even picked up by any of the networks. Perhaps, someone should ask him what could have been different or where the stumbling blocks were. Certainly, many of the pros rushed to the IPT for the money and certainly a professional organization would have a tough time raising the kind of capital that KT threw at the IPT.

Golf and pool are both characterized in the sports world as peculiar sports. The reason I point this out is that anyone can watch car racing and know who is in the lead. It is also exciting to watch a car travel at 200 MPH and on the hairy edge of a crash so there is also an element of excitement easy to recognize without anyone pointing it out. Car racing is an easy sport to spectate. Whereas in pool you really have to have some knowledge of the game to understand how exciting a particular shot really is. You also have to have some knowledge to know who is most likley to win a particular rack. I think there are some major corelations here to golf. Golf to me is completley boring because I have really no knowledge or understanding of the game. However, if I did play golf then I would probably be able to watch it on TV.

So, where is the market for pool? Well, it is not the common public unless someone channel surfing stumbles across a trick shot competition. So, I really have to agree with Tom In Cincy who spoke about the retail crowd. The retail crowd is what brought success to the golf industry. The retail crowd are the spectators the consumers and the fans. The retail crowd is most of us here on AZB, all the league players and all the bangers at bars anyone not a pro.

Pool cannot support itself from just the players. Pool needs sponsors but sponsors need to see a net return from those affiliations. Sponsors need consumers that will buy products and services. Look at golf again golf equipment is a large and evolving industry that certainly outpaces the pool supply industry many times over. We have a large sporting goods chain here in our area called Dick's Sporting Goods. Typical is the pool equipment is right near the ping pong equipment and there isn't a stick there over $30. While golf has an entire showroom with two or three sales people working there. Where does golf get it's money from from? The retail crowd which support the sponsors of those events so the pros can afford to be pros.

A professional pool organization is certainly needed and can provide consistency, unity, and a voice. It would provide structure so that players aren't just running to the next highest paid tournament. The pool world needs an organization to not just be for the immediate benefit of the pros it also needs to look at itself from the outside. It needs to do things that promote the fan base the the "retail group" in pool. It needs to be the go to place for the media if and when the media can recognize some viability in pool. It needs to find ways to make pool more exciting for the media. It might be that watching trick shot competitions or womens pool is not watching pool in it's purest forms. However, the general public certainly responds better to watching some sex appeal in pool or in some shot that seems more like a magic trick. So, it seems to me that pool needs to find better ways of providing something that might keep a viewer a little more on the edge of their seat. I am not sure what the answer is here as I am just rambling thoughts here on a Saturday.

Pool certainly has an image problem which a pool organization could help with. If you disagree with this try going before a city to get a license to run a pool hall and you will here what the general public thinks. I believe much of this come from the deceiptful nature of hustling and gambling which for the most part we do amongst ourselves nowadys. However, in times past if a common individual were to walk into a pool hall on a Friday night they might not leave with much of their paycheck. The game of pool is an elegant, complex and dignified game and we need to treat it as such. I do not gamble myself mostly because people seem to get really angry when I am playing for money and I just choose not to spend my life making enemies. I do not mean to make my comments here about gambling my point so please don't take this that way as I said earlier these are just ramblings.
BK
 
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CrownCityCorey said:
I was replying to a rep comment in a PM, when it dawned on me that these points were too important to keep in a PM.

What Billiards needs to flourish as a sport and industry:

  • In ideaology, it is simply "organization."

  • Following organization, it still takes time and unified effort to develop.

  • To keep the bond / unity, and organization together we need great leadership.

Great leaders, still humans, want to see results. Herding the "feline like" nature of billiards enthusiasts will test anyone's mettle.


  • That leader must possess: vision, passion, and extreme tolerance.

We have yet to see the above in billiards, ever!

All we have ever done is as a "by-product" of others fortune caused by their industry's growth or socio-economic condition.

We have to do it ourselves, from within. Only then will anyone outside of Billards recognize us in anyway whatsoever! We must prove that we are worthy of notice!

Sincerely,

Corey Harper

The Independent Professional Poolplayers Association
 
Bigkahuna said:
I do not see any real way to generate capital and seems to be loosley organized. I think often times organizations run by members do not last due to infighting.

Capital for a pool organization should come from sponsors, advertising revenue and merchandizing. When we have enough players united we might be able to get sponsors. Asking pool players to provide financing through dues is counterproductive and restricts membership. Numbers are our main asset in pool. The PGA has 27,000 pros, we need to surpass that number, by a lot, imo.

Infighting is a problem. That's why I believe the organization should have no power to regulate player conduct whatsoever. Then there are no issues like the current Jasmin problem, and the old Strickland (UPA) and Balukas fiascos.
 
Corey you are on the right track, but I think there is more to it;

- Not only does the competitive billiards category need to be organized, the billiard industry itself need this as well;

Once the big companies in cuesports realize that they can have a bigger impact on the sport, through advertising, anthropology, and associatiom, their notariety will grow carrying the billiard world with them.

- There is no leader right now because players want to focus on their own game and progress;

this is one thing I have noticed over the past few years. Most players are selfish (this doesn't mean players are bad and need to do more for the game, its just an observation). If a player were to take the role of leadership, that means they would have to knowingly sacrifice their own game for the betterment of the entire game.

- If a leader is to prevail, it MUST be a player;

A true knowledgeable player who had experience in playing in A-B venues is the kind of person needed to get Cuesports to the next level. You cannot expect someone who doesn't love the game to fight for it tooth and nail.

- In summary it is not going to be one person, one movie, one company, one league, etc. that is going to get the job done. It will take efforts for everyone to unite the sport. But I do believe that a few dedicated people can unite other people and start the domino effect. So if you are in a position to influence, even if you aren't and you are reading this, ask yourself

"What would I do for this sport that has done so much for me?"
 
"We must prove that we are worthy of notice."

What do you suggest? How can pool players 'prove' anything?

Amateurs league players play by 4 or 5 separate sets of rules.

Most tournaments use a variation of Texas Express, modified HOUSE and/or World Standard Rules.

The PROS use what ever rules they can agree upon, usually voted on during the low attended player's meetings just before the event.

Even the Regional tours use different sets of rules.

Hell, we can't even prove it to ourselves... .how could anyone expect the players 'prove' it to someone outside the industry?


CrownCityCorey said:
We have to do it ourselves, from within. Only then will anyone outside of Billards recognize us in anyway whatsoever! We must prove that we are worthy of notice!

Sincerely,

Corey Harper
 
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