For Billiards Survival - We need:

We need to get lucky like poker did. I understand thats a lazy mans attitude but there is alot to that, could pool handle the growth as well as poker did? I doubt it, right now. We need to be ready so when something good happens we dont lose the chance, look what happened in 86 with COM, pool got a shot in the ass and Pro pool blew that all to hell. this just makes Coreys first post all the more important, with out having more leaders that followers.
 
Fatboy said:
We need to get lucky like poker did. I understand thats a lazy mans attitude but there is alot to that, could pool handle the growth as well as poker did? I doubt it, right now. We need to be ready so when something good happens we dont lose the chance, look what happened in 86 with COM, pool got a shot in the ass and Pro pool blew that all to hell. this just makes Coreys first post all the more important, with out having more leaders that followers.
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I think a well done documentary about the pool players lifestyle could give it a huge boost, kind of like what "Pumping Iron", did for Body Building. Pool has a lot of personality that ESPN always fails to capture.
 
thebigdog said:
I think a well done documentary about the pool players lifestyle could give it a huge boost, kind of like what "Pumping Iron", did for Body Building. Pool has a lot of personality that ESPN always fails to capture.
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i agree, on ESPN its just a bunch of fat nerds hitting balls in, or girls etc. They have not captured 1% of pool, the Fats vs. mosconi thing on Valentines day years ago caught a piece of what were talking about and did great. The biggest mistake in pool TV shows is the play by play commentary-for example:

"Well he needs to hit this with a high ball causing the cue ball to go 2 rails up table leaving him in the right side of the 3 ball so he will be able to shoot the 4 in the side... or he could hit it with a low ball swinging the cue ball around the 8 comming up the otherside and still getting on the right side of the 3, What do you think? Second announder "That is a possibibily, but the way I teach my students..." and just keep going on and on until he shots the shot and start all over, its terrible!!!

That kind of announcing it great for people who understand pool but is Chinese math to 99.994235% of the people, NOBODY UNDERSTANDS WHAT TREY ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!, and thats why pool sucks on TV. Like everything else on TV dumb it down and it will sell, snooker in he UK is understood by its audience and isnt dumbed down as much, even the old pool shows in America wernt to dumbed down as people 40 years ago in America knew a little about pool. But today they know nothing so adapt the programming accordingly, the first couple years poker was on TV they explaineed the rules and ranking of hands, now on new poker shows they dont. Pool is new to everyone so show it accordinglly, Keith got his break on COM, there are alot more guys out there with personality, poker has its celebs, pool should and could too.
 
Fatboy said:
We need to get lucky like poker did. I understand thats a lazy mans attitude but there is alot to that, could pool handle the growth as well as poker did? I doubt it, right now. We need to be ready so when something good happens we dont lose the chance, look what happened in 86 with COM, pool got a shot in the ass and Pro pool blew that all to hell. this just makes Coreys first post all the more important, with out having more leaders that followers.
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Pool will probably never have a growth period like poker, because the average person can pay there $ and get in the WSOP and have a shot!(though it may be a slim shot!) Whereas you can take any hundred people off the street, train them for a couple of years, enter them in the US open and they still have 0% chance of cashing, much less winning! They are totally apples and oranges!

There needs to be some kind of basis for advancement! We are never gonna get anywhere when the pro's can't make any $ so they feed on the shortstops, and the shortstops feed on the A players, and the pros play in regional amateur events. It needs to start with the kids, youth programs of somekind! That's why other countries have passed us by in the billiards world. They teach there youth which therefore supports their progression up the ladder to being world class! Pool still has a bad image in the US, somehow poker has got around that.....what a shame for us!

Jeremy
 
I have read through this thread with great interest. There are a lot of good ideas floating around. Hopefully some of the billiard company reps are reading this. I think it will be hard for the game to gain respect and sponsorship without getting our youth involved. The powers that be, have to get it into our school systems and must then start promoting it there. Have your local pool greats (or whoever) provide lessons and exhibitions. The kids have to be shown the proper fundamentals. Did the ?Green? movement not take off by convincing our youth that it was the proper thing to do? Didn?t McDonalds make great strides by gearing their marketing toward children? We must have our great game in the elementary and secondary school systems.

Also I know that I will probably get flamed for this one but, I think that 9 Ball is hurting this sports advancement. Yes it is a great game for television, due to how quickly a game can be played and fitted into time slots. I don`t think the general pool playing public are that impressed by a pro running the table. They themselves might have made the 9 off the break or had a runout, so their attitude is, even I can do that.

When the sport was at its`peak, straight pool was the mainstream game. At that time it was easy to measure how good your so called local pool hero was. It was measured by his high run and his average run per inning. I am not saying that straight pool should be adopted, but perhaps 8 ball. At least it is the game most occasional players play. I`m not about to start debating which game is harder but with more balls on the table, at least it looks harder. On the other side of the pond Snooker is still quite popular. Yes it has of late had its troubles, but in general the prize money is still well above pools. In that game there is also an easy yardstick for the average player to use. In 14.1 and snooker you have to make more than one ball to win the game.

I think that if pool was being played in our schools, it would be only a matter of time before a hot shot kid comes along. With a child protege and proper marketing our sport would take off. Can you imagine what the media would do if a child was beating a few of our professionals.

From someone who usually only posts pictures, I guess I have gotten long winded, sorry.

Mike
 
you make some excellent points

Mike,

We need a different approach to televised pool. Many sports only show one game on a program, do we really have to show more if that one game holds their interest?

I don't have the answers to any of the questions but a couple things I have thought of is either a modified version of straight pool or a cross between pool and snooker.

If multiple games are played I think we should start each player with a stack of chips representing money, not necessarily the amount of the purse, and pass chips back and forth between losers and winners. Allen Hopkins' Skins games would have been easier to sell to the public if some dollars or chips were going back and forth I believe.

I also think you have a very valid point that we must get youth involved and have pool seen as a family activity to have it seen as a sport. Youngsters can play pool very well and there is no reason not to have them learning young.

Hu




Mike Porter said:
I have read through this thread with great interest. There are a lot of good ideas floating around. Hopefully some of the billiard company reps are reading this. I think it will be hard for the game to gain respect and sponsorship without getting our youth involved. The powers that be, have to get it into our school systems and must then start promoting it there. Have your local pool greats (or whoever) provide lessons and exhibitions. The kids have to be shown the proper fundamentals. Did the ?Green? movement not take off by convincing our youth that it was the proper thing to do? Didn?t McDonalds make great strides by gearing their marketing toward children? We must have our great game in the elementary and secondary school systems.

Also I know that I will probably get flamed for this one but, I think that 9 Ball is hurting this sports advancement. Yes it is a great game for television, due to how quickly a game can be played and fitted into time slots. I don`t think the general pool playing public are that impressed by a pro running the table. They themselves might have made the 9 off the break or had a runout, so their attitude is, even I can do that.

When the sport was at its`peak, straight pool was the mainstream game. At that time it was easy to measure how good your so called local pool hero was. It was measured by his high run and his average run per inning. I am not saying that straight pool should be adopted, but perhaps 8 ball. At least it is the game most occasional players play. I`m not about to start debating which game is harder but with more balls on the table, at least it looks harder. On the other side of the pond Snooker is still quite popular. Yes it has of late had its troubles, but in general the prize money is still well above pools. In that game there is also an easy yardstick for the average player to use. In 14.1 and snooker you have to make more than one ball to win the game.

I think that if pool was being played in our schools, it would be only a matter of time before a hot shot kid comes along. With a child protege and proper marketing our sport would take off. Can you imagine what the media would do if a child was beating a few of our professionals.

From someone who usually only posts pictures, I guess I have gotten long winded, sorry.

Mike
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What I see is a structureless sport and that should be the first order of business. This thread proves my observation. Talks about involving family invlvement running into talks about TV running into retail, amateur leagues, schools, .... a Tower of Babel.

No worries this happens everywhere in the world as you may find in other forums. Below is my reply in another forum.

J: [br]If you can guarantee that all your players will get a fair chance please let us all know or don't waste our time trying to get our sympathy. You're right i shouldn't compare basketball to pool, basketball coaches and fans actually know when a player is not playing well, and they just don't give spots in the all star game to a player who's not playing well.

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ER: Guarantee?! These players are the only ones who can give themselves the chance to be up there. They handle themselves as how professional athletes should, prepare themselves for what they want to be and they'd reach their goal. Nobody's going to hand anything to them on a silver platter. All we can do is help ease that journey.

You, on the other hand, would rather make that journey a lot harder for them yet you derive happiness and satisfaction from their success and conquests. You're there for the good times and not for the tough times xxxxxxxxxxx.

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eli..: Edwin, this particular argument with Jundee will never end. He is obviously a Democrat?a most liberal one. That?s his privilege. A ?fair deal? is something that must be ?provided? to all. Some sort of central planning or apparatus (e.g. by BSCP, BMPAP, WPA, whoever) is supposed to give ?Joe the Pro? a fair shot at things: The rules, opportunity for representation, and other policies must emphasize equality for all. Players must be ?given? a break, a ?fair chance?. There is a strong undercurrent of ?entitlement?.

If ?Joe the Pro? cannot claim years of international experience because he did not have managers and sponsors to make this happen, well that?s just not fair! You therefore cannot put as a criteria ?years of international experience?. That?s just not egalitarian, baby.

***

The thing is, if I were a pro, I?d probably travel around the world and make things happen. I?d probably understand that sponsors and endorsement power are part of the deal and would not for a moment resent organizers giving Efren Reyes wild card after wild card. I?ll strive for ?upward mobility? rather than grumble against the ?privileged?. Collectivists tend to despise high profile individual superstars. But hey, I?m not collectivist. Who knows, someday, I?ll be a Hall of Famer too. By then, I won?t have to point to some ?Rule? that says ?you should have chosen me?; instead, organizers will simply ?WANT? me there.

__________

?This is the business we?ve chosen.? ? Hyman Roth. The Godfather II


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ER: Point taken. What people seem to forget is that sports is entertainment and to break into the top eschelon of any sport one needs to prove himself exceptional.

How should the process be in this country? For budding athletes it is normally the NSA and its programs that should develop and provide "fair chances" for advancement. Once these athletes have reached a certain point of proficiency then they need somewhere to go to or we start getting these complaints about "fair chances" for newcomers.

The next level that these advanced players go to to make room for the "have to be given a fair chance newcomer" in the NSA program is the Pro Organisation.

Hopefully people here now will understand that there is that difference that we keep talking about and its importance. BSCP is the NSA and its task and reason for existance is stated above. The BMPAP is the professional organisation of the sport here.

After the pro level, the next stage of an athlete's career is "retirement from competition". They can start doing their own thing (start a business or just kickback) or stay in the organisation doing work that fits their stature and abilities. They can be tapped too to return to the NSA Organisation to be a part of the regional or scholastic programs to develop aspiring athletes or the main training center programs for the National Representative pool.

Above is the summary of how we see the Billiard/Pool structure here in the Philippines should be. Not as it is right now where a private enterprise has some special relation with and taking advantage of the benefits of the internationally accredited NSA. How will the National Program and the Sport itself here progress when the NSA's focus is diverted to money-making ventures?

_____________________________________________

ER: Elias, I'm sure that you understand the importance of the structure above.

Professional Sporting events are play-for-pay. Better performance means better pay for the athlete period. Winning the title too brings financial benefits, too, to the athlete in the form of product endorsements.

You mention Efren getting wild card after wild card, think about it. Play-for-pay Pool event promoters are there to make money so it's not charity work. Efren is the "Michael Jordan" or "Tiger Woods" of Pool and he puts behinds on seats in the venue. So why wouldn't he get wild card after wild card when it's beneficial to the promoter and the popularity of the sport? Let's face it, Filipinos love pool and Filipinos are everywhere in the world. Just get 20% of the venue's attendance covered by the Filipinos and that's 20% less gate revenue that the promoter has to worry about.
 
thanks corey

For staring this thread. Some good conversation - but if we wait for 'sponsors' we are gonna be here a long time.

We need to do it ourselves. And the project MUST be financially self sustaining. That is one of the main reasons that pro pool has never made it.

The only way pool wil ever get anywhere is to have a program or system that keeps the amateurs and pros under one general organiazation. They must work together.

That is what I am still trying to get done. Things take time. And although getting pool into school is the BEST idea, that will take a few years to get going to the point that it wil make a difference.

But discussion is also a good way to keep ideas afloat. just my ramblings -

Mark Griffin
CSI
BCAPL
USAPL
NCS
Diamond Billiards
 
Mike Porter said:
I think that if pool was being played in our schools, it would be only a matter of time before a hot shot kid comes along. With a child protege and proper marketing our sport would take off. Can you imagine what the media would do if a child was beating a few of our professionals.

Mike
Click to expand...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1497284#post1497284

I agree 100%...here is a previous thread that I made regarding this
 
Mark Griffin said:
For staring this thread. Some good conversation - but if we wait for 'sponsors' we are gonna be here a long time.

We need to do it ourselves. And the project MUST be financially self sustaining. That is one of the main reasons that pro pool has never made it.

The only way pool wil ever get anywhere is to have a program or system that keeps the amateurs and pros under one general organiazation. They must work together.

That is what I am still trying to get done. Things take time. And although getting pool into school is the BEST idea, that will take a few years to get going to the point that it wil make a difference.

But discussion is also a good way to keep ideas afloat. just my ramblings -

Mark Griffin
CSI
BCAPL
USAPL
NCS
Diamond Billiards
Click to expand...


KIDS are the future of pool. There are very few kids 18 who play pool, video games are tough competition.
 
I agree that we need to get more kids into pool if it is to grow and prosper however, the way to do it is to get to the folks outside of the billiard industry.........the mainstream kids. In order to do that marketing billiards as a viable, exciting sport is a must!!
It also has to be shown in a better light so parents arent afraid to have their children play the game.

Before we get to that point we have to market and clean up what we have and part of that is becoming consistent in how professional billiards is managed.

Theres a lot of work to do and in my opinion there are too many folks going in too many self serving directions to actually get the job done....for now anyway!! When the players, amateur and professional, unite as athletes and the industry better supports the players and tours and billiards becomes more consistent, professional and run with the sport of billiards as the priority rather than filling the pockets of some while the true athletes and potential future champions hustle to survive, then and only then will billiards have the opportunity to grow in the right direction and afford a better living to the top players and attract more of those future champions.

There is no consistency within many of the billiard organizations and quite frankly, some are there to self serve and dont really care about the image of the sport and certainly dont care about the livelihood of the players. Its a sad day when we can see such a great sport struggle to grow or even survive because the best of the best cannot sustain a living at it.
 
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Mark Griffin said:
For staring this thread. Some good conversation - but if we wait for 'sponsors' we are gonna be here a long time.

We need to do it ourselves. And the project MUST be financially self sustaining. That is one of the main reasons that pro pool has never made it.

The only way pool wil ever get anywhere is to have a program or system that keeps the amateurs and pros under one general organiazation. They must work together.

That is what I am still trying to get done. Things take time. And although getting pool into school is the BEST idea, that will take a few years to get going to the point that it wil make a difference.

But discussion is also a good way to keep ideas afloat. just my ramblings -

Mark Griffin
CSI
BCAPL
USAPL
NCS
Diamond Billiards
Click to expand...

As you have pointed out before, there is no clear delineation between professional and amatuer in the pool world. So I think it is unwise to even pretend it exists. IMO, we need everyone who plays in added money open tournaments united from the bottom to the top through a consistent ranking formula. Higher added money should get more points. But low added money tournaments should also get you into the rankings and get more people involved.

While qualifying tournaments are a good idea, there should be a need for the qualifying tournaments before they happen. If "pro" events cannot fill up accepting any players showing up with entry fee money, there is not really a need to hold qualifying tournaments. The "pro" event must have high enough added money and low enough expenses (entry fees/hotel/travel) to attract more players than can be accomodated comfortably before qualifying events are needed.

One very high added money tournament advertised far in advance with zero entry fee would get more people interested in qualifying. But even then, with travel and hotel expenses and payouts going to less than the full field, the number of players attending might still be rather limited.

The ATP tour pays out all places in pro events AND gives free room and board as an example of real professional tournaments. If you don't know you are making money when you go it is not really a professional tournament. Granted that is asking for the moon in today's pool world, but that should be a long term goal. Then you have players fighting for points in smaller added money tournaments, in the way that Agassi played challenger circuit events before he came back to dominate the tennis tour again.

Competition between tours and tournaments is a good thing for pool players giving them more chances to make money. That's why I think a player's organization should be separate from tours, with players controlling the points based mainly on the money involved.

After being unsuccessful at lobbying AZBilliards to start a forum for discussion of how best to set up a player's organization with rules to ensure its long term success, I have started my own forum for these discussions. I have tried to seed it with some relevent topics and ideas as I get time. So far we have a total of three members, lol, but we have not yet begun to promote it or even make it available to searches.

Unless and until I see a better idea I will continue working on this project and invite anyone interested to join in. These discussions are the main reason I joined AZBilliards as I thought this would be the place to do such a thing but the topic has had little interest around here for some reason I cannot explain.

The Independent Professional Poolplayers Association
 
I agree that the amateur and professional ranks need an overhaul. I don?t think that doing this will have any benefit towards the general public though. We need tables in our schools. If the local pool hall donated an old table to the schools, wouldn?t that be the best advertisement they could make for there businesses? They could have there business logo on the side skirts and offer discounts to the kids and their families when playing at the hall. I am from a small town and realize that this would be hard to accomplish in a larger center.

Just a thought...

Mike
 
Just by looking at this forum and the continued publications of pool magazines, there is a huge pool fan base in the USA. But you guys have to get out from within. You have to get players featured in newspapers and on TV. This will break-in new sponsors for the game. Ask ESPN and other TV carriers of pool tournaments for data. Use the data for marketing events. For example, in the Philippines, we know that there is a guaranteed 4 million viewership at any given time when pool is shown on TV and peak viewership can run to 25% of the population. Ask data from the magazines and if impressive, use it to find sponsors. Beer is good. Cellular carrier is good. Try American Idol's text in your winners and give away prizes to lucky texters. Get politicians to sponsor tournaments.

But yes, the players will have to get together and be available as a package to sell to sponsors.

I will say this again... now is the best time to promote pool. Hard times call for less expensive and more efficient advertising. Companies can still make their brands felt with the media values that pool can offer.

The person that you want who will stand and lead cannot do it alone. He will need company of about four or five hard working pool-dedicated leaders. One or two can get players together. Another one can focus on sponsors. Technical guys can do tournament organization.

Enterprising individuals have seen their days in pool. It just will not work anymore without exploitation. F*&k vision from individuals. They come in dollar signs. This is the very reason why Makabenta failed miserably in his dream to come up with a world championship leg. Big tournaments are still okay, but the organizers should be loaded and that is now a scarcity. Nobody really makes money in organizing big pool tournaments anymore except the winners of tournaments, and it's quite an unstable prospect. Just taking care of your players and offering a decent payroll to workers is enough.

In time, pool halls can blossom again. Cue sticks will be bought by new fans. And new pros will make it to the package that you offer. Perhaps, if you work hard enough, you can come up with a professional league.

Manila is undergoing slow pool rehabilitation with those ingredients all thrown in. Edwin cannot do it alone but he is doing a lot with Perry, Putch, Johnathan and a few more guys. We have a handful of people who put the players above personal gain. Our National Billiards League of two conferences a year (maybe three) is just passing on the care of the players to the company franchise owners. Maybe only then you can get your hands free in looking at big tournaments.

This is not promoting anything nor bragging... it is just sharing with you what is really happening in Manila. Doing the right thing makes bad grass stand out for the weed wacker to execute.
 
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