For those that are always hoping to compare Poker to Pool

[BJTyler]

Luck

That may be but it isn't the point. Even with a luck factor, the odds of a C player beating a pro player at 9 ball in a race to 7 is astronomical. Conversely, you can't take the luck factor out of poker. Can you imagine a poker match where, after an all in, the dealer announces "I'm not dealing out the cards, player A wins this hand because they're an 87.6% statistical favorite at this point"? That is part of the allure, I think, to poker which I don't think would sell with pool.

The other HUGE difference is it takes a multi thousand dollar table to play pool. For poker, you need a $1 deck of playing cards and a kitchen table.

I agree that given any specific amount of time, the luck factor in poker is almost always greater than that for pool. However, you can effectively reduce the luck factor in poker to negligible levels (and similarly increase it for pool).

For example, by playing poker for extremely long periods of time, with extremely large bankroll sizes (compared to the blinds), you can effectively reduce the luck to any level desired.

Similarly, let's say you played the following match of 9 ball.
- flip coin to determine breaker
- match is a race to 1
- breaker gets BIH after the break
- after every rack, 3 balls are randomly removed from the table, and
- an additional money ball is selected randomly.

I think this match would be close to a 50:50 contest among any group of pool players that can make a bridge. However, I don't think it would be a very popular game, and neither amateurs nor professionals would want to play it.

I think the real reason why poker attracts dumb money and pool does not is that while there is skill in both games, it is FAR easier to identify/recognize skill (or lack thereof) in Pool, hence, there are FAR fewer pool players deluded to the point of thinking they are a world beater at pool. But in poker, the identification of skill takes much longer and generally requires either statistical analysis, software, or an extremely rare level of talent. Therefore, dumb money abounds in poker, which in turn feeds the smart money. Unfortunately, no such ecosystem exists in pool.

 

[xplor]

Name one poker game that can not be gamed.

 

[BJTyler]

dalai lama?

Name one poker game that can not be gamed.

that's deep....or I don't really understand your request.

 

[xplor]

Look up Borgata

 

[bdorman]

I think the real reason why poker attracts dumb money and pool does not is that while there is skill in both games, it is FAR easier to identify/recognize skill (or lack thereof) in Pool...

I think the reason is that anyone with one working hand can pick up cards and toss chips into the pot...and look like a player. Even someone with no knowledge of poker could sit at a table and "act" like a player...and get away with it for a few minutes. There's simply no physical skill involved in poker.

You couldn't get away with it in pool, golf, etc.

BTW, one of my best friends from my college days has been a professional poker player for 30 years. He has a house in the suburbs and put two kids through college. He plays on the riverboat casinos where he and other pros wait for the conventioneers and tourists to come play in the evening (they never play against each other). Interestingly, he ace'd every statistics exam (his major) and only read the textbooks once and never needed to do the textbook exercises.

 

[Agent 99]

I play poker .. often

I completely agree that it is impossible to make a living playing tournament poker.

If you apply the math with consideration to field size and payout structures it becomes obvious that poker tournaments are pretty much a crap shoot.

Of course pro poker players enter tournaments, but they consider it the same as buying a lottery ticket. They make a living they can count on playing cash games, or as poker players call it - real poker.

The raising blinds of tournament poker turn the contest into a game of luck.

In real poker the blinds never increase, they remain the same at all times, giving a skilled player an opportunity to ply his trade.

Cash poker and tournament poker are really two completely different animals.

A pro poker player does not make his money trying to get all the checks on the table. He does not have to.

In a 5-10 no limit game the pro will pick up a nickel here, 20 minutes later a dime from over there, and then another nickel 30 minutes later. Then he'll say, "I'm out." -- and call it a day.

Rinse and repeat .. LOL

 

[Masayoshi]

Nearly all games involve an element of luck.

In poker you might get a good draw.

In golf you might sink a 60-yard chip shot.

In pool you might get a lucky roll.

But luck won't make you a winner in any of these games because each game has 100s of "events" (strokes, hands, shots) . Getting lucky in 3 or 4 events won't alter the outcome. That's the reason why the same individuals are the winners.

If you think you can "luck" your way to poker winnings, I've got some friends who would like to invite you to a game.

Nobody thinks they can luck their way to poker winnings, they just acknowledge the fact that the possibility is there.

In poker, if the stars align, you maybe able to make hundreds of thousands or even millions with only an amateur level of skill. In pool, it takes the stars to align for an amateur to beat SVB, unfortunately that only advances you one round in the pool tournament and you have to play Dennis Orcullo next.

 

[bdorman]

Nobody thinks they can luck their way to poker winnings, they just acknowledge the fact that the possibility is there.

Sure, the possibility is there, but the probablity is not.

SVB might give me the breaks and the 10-ball wins on the break, race to 11. There is the possiblity that I might sink the 10-ball on the break 11 times in a row. After all, I've pocketed the 10-ball on the break dozens of times. But the probablity is low that I'll do it 11 times in a row.

An amateur poker player has about the same probability against a pro.

 

[Nine ... corner]

I have played poker for over fifty years and had strategy columns published in magazines for over twenty years and I can attest to the fact that Poker is a tough way to make an easy living!

 

[Masayoshi]

Sure, the possibility is there, but the probablity is not.

SVB might give me the breaks and the 10-ball wins on the break, race to 11. There is the possiblity that I might sink the 10-ball on the break 11 times in a row. After all, I've pocketed the 10-ball on the break dozens of times. But the probablity is low that I'll do it 11 times in a row.

An amateur poker player has about the same probability against a pro.

The possibility of snapping 10 10-balls in a row is virtually non-existent. It will never happen unless you are rigging the rack and even then, its unlikely. And even then you would have to snap about 100 10 balls in a row to actually win the tournament. Amateur poker players on the other hand have and do win poker tournaments, even tournaments where pros compete and there is huge prize money.

 

[Agent 99]

The possibility of snapping 10 10-balls in a row is virtually non-existent. It will never happen unless you are rigging the rack and even then, its unlikely. And even then you would have to snap about 100 10 balls in a row to actually win the tournament. Amateur poker players on the other hand have and do win poker tournaments, even tournaments where pros compete and there is huge prize money.

Chris Moneymaker fits this description .. but we are talking tournament, not cash.

Very hard, if not impossible, for an amateur to be lucky enough to be a cash winner for very long.

But any given tournament, you betcha'

 

[nobcitypool]

This is a loaded question, I'm sure; But is there any structured or semi-structured path to learning poker? How does one gauge their speed and improve?


Sheldon Adelson aside, I just don't think you stop online gaming forever.

Yes. With the meteoric rise in the popularity of poker in the past two decades, there are near countless books available as well as training seminars, etc.. IMHO, the first fundamental you have to understand is the statistics. To me, that's like learning a straight stroke in pool. You need to understand the statistical odds for the different hands and hitting the card to complete your (or your opponent's) hand. You need to understand mathematically when, based upon the size of the pot and the bet you need to call, it makes sense to call even though you may be a big dog (or perceive it). You need to understand the statistics in order to put your opponent on a range of hands they could be holding.

Then you get into the next phase for understanding the nuances such as table position, betting, bluffing, reading bets and betting patterns, reading opponents, etc.. Then, just like pool, table time, table time, table time.

 

[watchez]

Not many people in this thread have brought up one point mentioned in the article. That tells me few read it and I could have just posted - compare poker to pool.

 

[maha]

they are actually both the same gambling game. those that find the best games and bet the highest make the money. its all about turning your money over with an edge. the biggest edge is against the worst players. thats where you want to be playing.
your not going to play ten dollar pool games and ten dollar limit poker and make a living.

in tournaments its the same thing. pool tournaments have such small buy ins that there is so little money to cut up for the winners it isnt worth going except for a very small few and they make about what a bus driver makes in the big cities.

in poker with the house take and expenses you have to play 1000 dollar buyin tournaments to have a chance to make enough to live off it. and at the same time be an excellent player.

in both sports you can make some money on the side if you play well and get in good games and manage yourself properly. only a select few will prosper.

 

[jay helfert]

The skill set required to play either game is similar, this the crossover from pool to poker. I've played both for many years and have enjoyed some degree of success. My biggest tournament poker wins exceed first prize in the U.S. Open 9-Ball tournament. I have actually done better though playing "middle limits" (10-20 to 40-80) Hold'em.

The problem today with tournament poker is there are so many good players, mostly young college educated guys, and the price to play is way too high. The "house" is taking a 10-15% cut off the top of every poker tourney, thus depleting the overall money fund the players have. You don't have to be a math expert to see the numbers just don't add up. There must be fresh money coming in constantly to replace all the money the house (casinos) are taking out. There is NO added money! The poker players are playing for their own money and the house is taking a huge share/cut in every tournament.

That's why I've cut back greatly on the number of tournaments I play each year. Only the World Series of Poker interests me anymore. Huge purses to play for with thousands of players, many of whom are true amateurs. And even there I pick my spots carefully.

 

[JAM]

Not many people in this thread have brought up one point mentioned in the article. That tells me few read it and I could have just posted - compare poker to pool.

I read it, dag nab it!

So which has the highest ROI? Poker or pool? I already know that answer.

 

[macguy]

I have played poker for over fifty years and had strategy columns published in magazines for over twenty years and I can attest to the fact that Poker is a tough way to make an easy living!

But you can and many do. With pool there is just no way not even wishful thinking. For the poker players who want to give it a shot, it beats roofing or driving a truck. It also depends on what one consider a living. Many don't mind just getting by and they value their time independence. I used to know a lot of guys who went to the track everyday or night.

The fact is, they worked harder spending all day studying their forms then they would have at a real job.
The real American dream is making a living doing what you would like to do and not just working in a sweat shop all your life for nothing. We all end up at the same place no matter what we do, the trick is enjoying your life in between.