For those who have followed the game for decades

[Donny Lutz]

fair share

What is this "fair share" you're talking about and who decides what it is?
The "fair share" police, maybe??

I suppose "fair share" is in the eye of the beholder.

Some folks believe that a corporation should consider nothing but the bottom line, while others believe that "giving back" more than a tiny fraction of the profits is only "fair".

It may have to do with one's opinions about unrestricted capitalism...is it a perfect economic system or is it a system by which the rich can legally steal from the poor?

 

[Dunnn51]

Ralph Greenleaf made more money than Babe Ruth.

Wayy back when a man's word was golden, and people cared about their character. The whole world is different today than it was even in the 90's !

And it "ain't" (sic) getting better !!

 

[Dunnn51]

I suppose "fair share" is in the eye of the beholder.

Some folks believe that a corporation should consider nothing but the bottom line, while others believe that "giving back" more than a tiny fraction of the profits is only "fair".

It may have to do with one's opinions about unrestricted capitalism...is it a perfect economic system or is it a system by which the rich can legally steal from the poor?

Donny,
Did you know that a corproation was a business entity designed originally to protect and promote the general welfare of their employees?
A corporations "role" changed in the late 1970's by a certain CEO at the advice of his accountants.

Corporations are now pracitally human ! They (some of them), pay taxes, have voting rights, and have special power concerning political campaign contributions.

I take that back,..... corporations have it BETTER than humans !!

 

[Rico]

The golden years?

I personally think the 60,s to 90,s were pretty good.I will always be fond of memories of Johnson City.The cue club out back was mind boggling. In the 70,s and 80,s there was probably as much action on bar rags as 9fts.When we ran the bar rag shootout in the early 80,s it created so much attention are local league grew to around 900 in a town of 32,000. Clinton IA. On any saturday we had 32players (no handicap) tourn. and ring games galore.And it was real pool called shootout ,5or 7 ahead the cream comes to the top. Just saying.

 

[GoldenFlash]

I suppose "fair share" is in the eye of the beholder.
Some folks believe that a corporation should consider nothing but the bottom line, while others believe that "giving back" more than a tiny fraction of the profits is only "fair".
It may have to do with one's opinions about unrestricted capitalism...is it a perfect economic system or is it a system by which the rich can legally steal from the poor?

.
Clever dodge, but still not an answer to my question. so I will try again.

*What is this "fair share" you're talking about and who decides what it is?*
The "fair share" police, maybe??
Today 10:08 AM

 

[wahcheck]

the 1980's AND 1990's

For me, my best memories are fairly recent; when the Camel Pro Tour was in existence, and living on the West Coast, the great pro tournaments they had in Reno (the Sands Regency 9-ball tournaments) twice a year. It was at one of the Reno tournaments I first saw Earl play. I also remember a nice tournament they had at Caesar's Tahoe.

Alas, the Camel Pro Tour somehow self-destructed, and I don't remember exactly the reason. Was it Don Mackey? Was it Earl quitting in one of the Finals? Was it just because the pros did it to themselves?

I sure miss seeing those tournaments.

 

[West Point 1987]

For me, my best memories are fairly recent; when the Camel Pro Tour was in existence, and living on the West Coast, the great pro tournaments they had in Reno (the Sands Regency 9-ball tournaments) twice a year. It was at one of the Reno tournaments I first saw Earl play. I also remember a nice tournament they had at Caesar's Tahoe.

Alas, the Camel Pro Tour somehow self-destructed, and I don't remember exactly the reason. Was it Don Mackey? Was it Earl quitting in one of the Finals? Was it just because the pros did it to themselves?

I sure miss seeing those tournaments.

I thought Don Mackey was running the PBT when it lost its ESPN deal and went under...wasn't CJ Wiley and others involved with the Camel Pro Tour? I think the Camel Pro Tour came after PBT...? I don't recall either, but it was a fascinating story.

 

[wahcheck]

where did the money go

I thought Don Mackey was running the PBT when it lost its ESPN deal and went under...wasn't CJ Wiley and others involved with the Camel Pro Tour? I think the Camel Pro Tour came after PBT...? I don't recall either, but it was a fascinating story.

Actually, there is an article in Billiards Digest Archives saying that a jury awarded $886,000 to the PBTA back in 2000; and Mackey said that money helped to settle their debts, and paid off SOME of the pro players for money owed.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Pool rooms were illegal in Texas when the Hustler came out. They had to be private clubs. They sprang up everywhere. I had over 20 membership cards from Dallas clubs alone. The 60s,70s had by far the most easy action.

Everyone wanted to be like Paul Newman. People who could not hit the end rail gambled. At the Cotton Palace I can think of 20 or so full time pool hustlers, and that is just one place. The place was so packed with players,stake horses, sweaters, etc you literally had to part the crowd to shoot. That's just one place, every pool room had them.

Everyone wanted to live a little bit on the edge.Up scale rooms started, with restaurants, dress codes, no gambling, cussing, ladieswelcome, blah, blah, blah. They all went busted. Some players would hit the bars and there would be 20 quarters lined up with everyone gambling, play until 2;00 am
when they closed then head for some all night pool room.

It slowly started dying out as cheap tournaments, and leagues started. To get any real competition you had to gamble, but then the easy scores (the ones that kept money in your pocket) could get their play out playing all night a cheap tournament, or league. Then TCOM gave it a boost but for me it was never like the 60s and 70s. Seems like so many today want to make pool a true gentlemen game, but that was tried when it was at its peak and it didn't work and it never will.
jack

Hi Jack..As you know, I was very active in Dallas and Houston during the early 60's, and I do not recall pool rooms being confined to private clubs only? It was that way in Oklahoma for sure, but what about the Cotton Bowl, Times Square, or the LeCue in Houston?..They were not private, were they?

But whatever, the rest of your summation is pretty much accurate!..I left Texas in the early 70's, and moved back to San Jose..Pool hustling (for me at least) was dying out. I re-married, moved to Arizona, and gave up on pool!..Got a great job, and for the next 20 yrs, rarely even went in a pool room!..In the 80's, when the 'Color of Money' came out, pool enjoyed another good boost, and I started playing seriously again! (as serious as I could get, in my 70's )

The COM boost, did not last near as long as the 'Hustler' boom, and things started to fall apart again. The big fancy pool rooms were folding everywhere, which led to the current state of the game.. It never was a great way to get rich, but it now can barely support a handful of the world's best player's! (unless your name is Ronnie O'Sullivan )

My playing days are long over, but I would like to see some sign that pool, as we knew it, might be resurrected someday!..Sorry, but I am certainly not going to hold my breath 'til it does!.. Hope you are well..I gave Alf Taylor your Phone #!

Dick

 

[book collector]

I remember the mid to late 1960s in Columbus Ohio, there were 5 "Golden 8 Ball" pool rooms in the city at one time.
There were also several downtown poolrooms, The Neil House, Clock Restaurant and I remember a couple more, but not the names.
There was also one run by Danny Jones in the east end, 5 or 6 bowling alleys I know of had large billiard rooms.
Then there were 20 mom and pop places with 8 tables or less.
Pool was huge!
Now we have 1 semi real pool room filled with C and a few B wannabes with no money, {kinda like the rest of the country}.
Not a knock, just reality.
I got over the League thing long ago, if you like them, great.
I hate everything about them, except that people are out playing the game.
I really think the pool room scene of my generation, has gone, and will not come back .
I am sorry for the young guys who never got the thrill of walking into an opulent billiard room in a grand old hotel , or an upscale room with 20 or 30 tables all going at once and lots of action, even if it was 5 dollar nine ball or 20 dollar 1 pocket , which was not bad money in the 60s.
You walked in the door and 5 people asked you to play, some were champions and some were goofs, it was a smorgasbord!
By the 80s most of it was over.
Then the Color of Money revived it back to maybe 50% of what it had been,
Nowadays, from a business standpoint, the poolrooms/sportsbars would be better off financially to take the tables out, and use the space for restaurant and entertainment purposes.

 

[wigglybridge]

interestingly, it was the era when 14.1 straight pool was king.

oh, wait, that Can't be right, of course we all know that straight pool is boring.

correlation isn't causation. but it Is correlation. just sayin'.

 

[M.G.]

14.1 is dead on boring for me - watching one guy sink ball after ball with slight rolls (everything is in one place) is not my cup of tea.

But why does everybody here post about how great it was because of the money?
Nobody talks about great people he met, the great games he played, the stuff he learned, the friends he made.

Only money and action and betting, and that's kinda sad.

I'm just SO glad that time is gone and I can take my girlfriend into a pool room without any gamblers being present. Just respectable people having a proper jobs having a nice game with friends for fun.

Cheers.

 

[GoldenFlash]

It's not the gambling and money

14.1 is dead on boring for me - watching one guy sink ball after ball with slight rolls (everything is in one place) is not my cup of tea.
But why does everybody here post about how great it was because of the money?
Nobody talks about great people he met, the great games he played, the stuff he learned, the friends he made.
Only money and action and betting, and that's kinda sad.
I'm just SO glad that time is gone and I can take my girlfriend into a pool room without any gamblers being present. Just respectable people having a proper jobs having a nice game with friends for fun.
Cheers.

.
Have you been out to a first class golf course lately?
People out there are meeting great people, discussing the game and business, and enjoying the friends they meet.
And most are gambling like crazy.
But..........golf courses are not seedy dumps filled with lowlifes, thieves, people just out of prison (or on the way), and bums like Minnesota Fats Wanderone
I believe his book "The Bank Shot and Other Great Robberies" set the stage for the end of pool. Bragging and telling absurd lies about being a thief and a con man just does not appeal to most people. They may watch it, but they're not eager to get in on it.
It's not the gambling that's wrong with pool......it's the trash who hang around pool rooms. I know of what I speak.....I used to be one of them, long, long ago.
Just my observations...flame away.

 

[Donny Lutz]

.
Clever dodge, but still not an answer to my question. so I will try again.

*What is this "fair share" you're talking about and who decides what it is?*
The "fair share" police, maybe??
Today 10:08 AM

Do you not understand the old phrase, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"?

Asking one person what is a "fair share" is like asking someone "who makes the best cue", - it's personal opinion.

Whatever it may be, are you suggesting that there's no such thing as a "fair share"? If I become a millionaire in business and give 1/10 of 1% back to charities, is that a fair share? Some millionaires would say, "Why should I share my profits with anyone?" while another might show more compassion. Some millionaire athletes give lots of money back to youth programs, scholarships, etc, while others drive million dollar cars and never do anything for people in need...

Efren is a nice example of someone who makes lots of money, but also gives much of it to others, including promoting the sport of pool.

 

[SJDinPHX]

interestingly, it was the era when 14.1 straight pool was king.

oh, wait, that Can't be right, of course we all know that straight pool is boring.

correlation isn't causation. but it Is correlation. just sayin'.

Seems we've touched on this before, WB...When 14.1, (or any form of straight pool), was 'king', it was because that was all people knew back then!..It wasn't until the newer gambling type games became prevalent, (9ball, one pocket, banks etc) that people saw how boring 14.1 really was!..Then it began fading fast, 'almost' everywhere except the
east coast!

Then it seems, all the good player's from there had to re-locate, if they wanted to find action!..Please let strt. pool die peacefully, like its other boring dead twin, 'billiards'!..RIP both of them!..In case you haven't noticed WB, people rarely play 'hand-ball or horseshoes' any more either..Times do change..Thats why 14.1 was abruptly phased out of all big pool tournaments, over 50 yrs. ago!.....just sayin' :sorry:

 

[(((Satori)))]

SJD,

As a man who has been around it all and seen it all, I am curious on your answers and thoughts on the following questions?


Will pool ever obtain a clean image such as the game of golf?

If it did obtain that image would the game grow in popularity?

and

Have the efforts in trying to class the game up and change the image helped or hurt the popularity of the game at this time?

Thanks,
I look forward to reading your thoughts

 

[336Robin]

The Changes in Pool

I don't have a crystal ball but I think that Pool is getting ready to start into a phase in which a change toward popularity is possible. I think it will take some time approximately 10 yrs to get full swing but I sense it coming.

 

[SJDinPHX]

SJD,

As a man who has been around it all and seen it all, I am curious on your answers and thoughts on the following questions?


Will pool ever obtain a clean image such as the game of golf?

If it did obtain that image would the game grow in popularity?

and

Have the efforts in trying to class the game up and change the image helped or hurt the popularity of the game at this time?

Thanks,
I look forward to reading your thoughts

Satori, I sure don't have a crystal ball either, but to try and answer your first question, IMO I would have to say definiitely NOT!..Which makes the second question a moot point. My reasoning is this! Golf has spent the last century or so, organizing the game, and its rules, to protect and insure the excellent image it has attained!.. Bowling has also made great strides, with nearly as many negativities to overcome as pool, at the outset.

Sadly, pool on the other hand, seems to have worked just as hard at trashing its image in the public eye!..The few who have tried to better pool's image, seem to be far outnumbered by those who could care less about such things! Strangely enough, the greedy con man Trudeau, came closest to getting pool at least noticed.

If the efforts of the few might have made any difference at all, there always seems to be some 'new scandal' waiting to erupt!..I wish it weren't so, but I don't see pool ever having as clean an image as most other sports enjoy. We all know the BCA is a farce!.. Until we can at least put in place, a respected professional governing entity, with appropriate dues, rules, and penalties for poor behavior, I don't see how we can ever change anything! :frown:

 

[GoldenFlash]

"Fair Share" is Bull....

Do you not understand the old phrase, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"?

Asking one person what is a "fair share" is like asking someone "who makes the best cue", - it's personal opinion.<====WRONG!...especially since you're wanting to get in my pocket when I don't want to let you.

Whatever it may be, are you suggesting that there's no such thing as a "fair share"? If I become a millionaire in business and give 1/10 of 1% back to charities, is that a fair share? Some millionaires would say, "Why should I share my profits with anyone?" while another might show more compassion. Some millionaire athletes give lots of money back to youth programs, scholarships, etc, while others drive million dollar cars and never do anything for people in need...

Efren is a nice example of someone who makes lots of money, but also gives much of it to others, including promoting the sport of pool.

I am absolutely stating there is no such thing as a "fair share"!
I owe you nothing. And I have zero guilt or shame about it.
You owe me nothing either.
If a rich person WANTS to give away some money, it's his/her business and none of yours or mine.
Again, I keep asking you and you keep running..... WHO DECIDES WHAT IS A "FAIR SHARE"? Some government agency or the "Fair Share Police"..??
You sound like one of those "from each according to his ability to each according to his need" guys.

 

[Mr. Bond]

I don't believe there is such a thing as " a fair share" per say...however, I do believe that the industry, any industry, should be actively promoting the future of that industry. It's common sense 101. And pool has been sorely lacking in that respect for many decades.

Football, basketball, baseball, golf and many other sports all invest in marketing to new players, younger players, and families in general. Pool doesn't do this much, if at all, so I can see how a fan might expect the industry to " give back" their " fair share". It's a reasonable expectation.

I mean really, if you think about it, McDonald's is selling dog turds to our children by the truckload, right under our noses. I'm sure we can sell pool too if we just try a little harder than not at all.