Try Pat's suggested test. How much speed can you get on the ball with just your wrist?
force follow power shot, how to hit?
- Thread starter judochoke
- Start date
It is an illusion just like many things we think we know.
I did A and B happened therefore A is true.
OP, Howdy;
Funny you bring this up. Been looking into it myself and stumbled across this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCv-Lu8oTxs
Hope it helps.
hank
Funny you bring this up. Been looking into it myself and stumbled across this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCv-Lu8oTxs
Hope it helps.
hank
A couple points:
1) It is silly of me to quibble with you about this because I do not advocate *intentional* wrist action. Like you, I think the detriment to accuracy is not worthwhile.
2) I am silly, though.
3) The wrist moving in isolation doesn't have much "pop", but neither does your index finger extending from bent to straight. Do this without involving any other digit, and you won't be able to flick anything very hard. Brace it against your thumb and then release it, however, and you can flick that finger hard enough to cause bleeding under the finger nail. The inertia of the cue and the acceleration of the forearm provide a force against which the wrist can push, like the thumb does for the index finger. The wrist's capability of contributing is greatly different during a power stroke than it is keeping the arm still and trying to stroke with the wrist alone.
4) Even if the wrist had no muscles and merely flopped around, if it moves it can increase the speed of the cue, relative to if it had stayed still. You can look at a golf driver, a fishing pole, or a bullwhip to see examples of a flexible object whose tip moves faster than it would if it were rigid, without any separate source of energy. As long as the wrist is loose enough to lag behind a bit at the beginning of the stroke, and has enough internal stiffness to "catch up" at all during the contact portion of the stroke, its motion will have increased the speed of the stroke. This contribution does not have to be minor; it's a huge factor in golf club design. A stiffer shaft will increase control, but at the expense of a significant amount of drive distance.
5) Again, I'm silly. This is not golf, and precision utterly trumps power in our game. I am not advocating intentional wrist action; only arguing against the idea that it can't contribute much power.
sbk510
Registered
Your cue shoule be level. Try this drill I invented to find out what level REALLY is. Pretend you're going to shoot on the rail and DRAG YOUR KNUCKLES. That is level. Of course hit the ball high. Line an object ball up with the number perfectly facing you. Chalk your cue, and when you get done hitting the ball look on the object ball that you hit. There should be a big blue chalk mark. You can see if your hitting the ball in the right place like this. If you're not cueing the ball where you think you are, this blue mark will tell on you every time.
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These aren't equivalent. Unlike the wrist, the finger releases its pent up force all at once - that's where it gets its speed.
pj
chgo
Yeah, Earl has one of the best force follow shots I've seen.. he goes forward
two rails out where most players try to draw back around... I talked to him
waaay back in the day, he said keep the cue level, and a firm bridge. I've
worked on that elevated closed bridge for years... I have to hit it like a
sharp draw shot to get any action on the CB.
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We have a winner. If you elevate it will cause the cue ball to bounce and the spin won't grab the cloth.
WinnerBreaks
Registered
Many variables:
1) Tip hardness
2) Cloth type of table
3) Cue at any angle other than something below 0 degrees
4) Distance CB is from OB
5) Your tip placement on CB
6) Firmness of hit
7) Grip tension (the looser you can grip the cue while maintining control of the cue; the more English/draw/follow you'll get on CB
8) and most importantly your stroke
Pay no attention to anything the above posters have said about wrist movement. Your wrist should be loose and in parallel with your forearm without much flex. This applies to all shots.
1) Tip hardness
2) Cloth type of table
3) Cue at any angle other than something below 0 degrees
4) Distance CB is from OB
5) Your tip placement on CB
6) Firmness of hit
7) Grip tension (the looser you can grip the cue while maintining control of the cue; the more English/draw/follow you'll get on CB
8) and most importantly your stroke
Pay no attention to anything the above posters have said about wrist movement. Your wrist should be loose and in parallel with your forearm without much flex. This applies to all shots.
rocketceo
<<< rocketceo >>>
Here's some DIFFERENT advice from a 5-time U.S. National Champion in 3-cushion. Allen Gilbert had the best force follow I've ever seen, in that I could do the same shot as him, but he would hit it 25% softer and the cue ball would amazingly go just as far. I took lessons from him for a couple of years in the 90's, and his advice was mostly as has been discussed. Yes, the wrist should be loose, but MORE than that is to use a bit of wrist flick, or snap, if it's in your arsenal. This absolutely adds stroke, but don't overdo it, or your stroke becomes unnatural. A strong follow through is essential (even though many believe the ball leaves almost instantly and it doesn't matter). I don't know about others, but the two shots below I couldn't have made without the extra long follow through.
Here's what he suggested contrary to the comments above: add a touch of elevation. I have experimented with this very, very carefully, and I am as certain as I can be that he is absolutely right. In my shots below you will see just a "touch" of elevation -- you do not want any more, or it becomes a bit of a jump shot, and you can lose accuracy. Allen never said why, but my belief is that the cue ball leaves the table just a tiny amount, which lessens the time the cloth applies friction to reduce your action. There are many shots which use exactly this principle: not at all a jump shot, but a trace of elevation to reduce friction, or even just "lighten" the ball a little bit to reduce drag from the cloth. Note that this effect happens even with a perfectly level cue!, as there is still a downward vector into the cloth (a line from the contact point downward through the center of the ball). In fact, a perfectly level cue with two tips of high struck hard leaves the table every time, but people just don't see it (if you don't believe me, put a penny two inches away from the cue ball and the cue ball will hop right over it).
Another key for me is to NOT over-power the shot! I prefer to make the shot with "stroke," and NOT max power and muscles. This shot is NOT struck terribly hard, but it has all the action you could want. https://youtu.be/qyxoFSAJoc0
This pool shot is the same. Very slight elevation, long follow through, good wrist action, and no more power than necessary. Technique is the answer, not muscles.
https://youtu.be/qxbYjfEHGEY
Three final points, not mentioned in this thread before. First, a longer than usual bridge length helps, as it gives you more time to build acceleration. Second is (as always) a "slow last stroke." If you pull back hard, you almost always pull the cue off line, and then your muscles get confused with the transition forward. There's no sense getting the action you need if you don't deliver whitey where it needs to go. Third is to use ALL of your bridge length!! A VERY common problem I have seen with my students trying to learn this is that they are nervous about finding the power and stroke necessary, so they rush the last stroke, and pull back only a fraction of the warm-up strokes they just did. This naturally lessens the time available for acceleration, and you hit the cue ball with less velocity, and therefore get less action. You'll know you're doing this shot right when you see the cue ball "leap" forward, as in these two shots above. Don't think "power;" think smooth, silky, loose ... and just "stroke" it. This may sound like advice from the Buddhist monk that talks in riddles, but it's true. If you're having trouble with this shot, loosen that death grip, back off on the power, elevate slightly, and concentrate on a smooth stroke with a very loose wrist and a long follow through.
Here's what he suggested contrary to the comments above: add a touch of elevation. I have experimented with this very, very carefully, and I am as certain as I can be that he is absolutely right. In my shots below you will see just a "touch" of elevation -- you do not want any more, or it becomes a bit of a jump shot, and you can lose accuracy. Allen never said why, but my belief is that the cue ball leaves the table just a tiny amount, which lessens the time the cloth applies friction to reduce your action. There are many shots which use exactly this principle: not at all a jump shot, but a trace of elevation to reduce friction, or even just "lighten" the ball a little bit to reduce drag from the cloth. Note that this effect happens even with a perfectly level cue!, as there is still a downward vector into the cloth (a line from the contact point downward through the center of the ball). In fact, a perfectly level cue with two tips of high struck hard leaves the table every time, but people just don't see it (if you don't believe me, put a penny two inches away from the cue ball and the cue ball will hop right over it).
Another key for me is to NOT over-power the shot! I prefer to make the shot with "stroke," and NOT max power and muscles. This shot is NOT struck terribly hard, but it has all the action you could want. https://youtu.be/qyxoFSAJoc0
This pool shot is the same. Very slight elevation, long follow through, good wrist action, and no more power than necessary. Technique is the answer, not muscles.
https://youtu.be/qxbYjfEHGEY
Three final points, not mentioned in this thread before. First, a longer than usual bridge length helps, as it gives you more time to build acceleration. Second is (as always) a "slow last stroke." If you pull back hard, you almost always pull the cue off line, and then your muscles get confused with the transition forward. There's no sense getting the action you need if you don't deliver whitey where it needs to go. Third is to use ALL of your bridge length!! A VERY common problem I have seen with my students trying to learn this is that they are nervous about finding the power and stroke necessary, so they rush the last stroke, and pull back only a fraction of the warm-up strokes they just did. This naturally lessens the time available for acceleration, and you hit the cue ball with less velocity, and therefore get less action. You'll know you're doing this shot right when you see the cue ball "leap" forward, as in these two shots above. Don't think "power;" think smooth, silky, loose ... and just "stroke" it. This may sound like advice from the Buddhist monk that talks in riddles, but it's true. If you're having trouble with this shot, loosen that death grip, back off on the power, elevate slightly, and concentrate on a smooth stroke with a very loose wrist and a long follow through.
I don't think you can get enough follow on the CB for it to rotate much faster than its forward speed, so it can't "grab the cloth" until it's stopped or slowed by the OB. Mike Page has a video that demonstrates this - here's the link to it on Dr. Dave's webpage: https://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-36.htm
The looser grip by itself doesn't change anything - unless it causes you to hit the CB faster or more accurately.
pj
chgo
Now where would you be with out that baby working its magic...
you have to strike it with just inside english to get that cueball path. it's just a hell of a clean stroke with excellent 'timing'. A real monster
Bob Byrne described a simple experiment to show that it is hard to get any "overspin" on the cue ball to the extent that the bottom of the cue ball is actually moving backwards towards the shooter. I think it was in his "Advanced Technique" book. That test does not require any extra setup -- just a table and two balls.
It is however possible to get some overspin on the cue ball by hitting it above the 70% height point (which gives immediate smooth rolling). The problem is that you are not guaranteed to get significantly more RPMs there for a given stick speed because with added height, the forward speed of the cue ball is reduced and the RPMs are a product of the distance off-center and the ball speed forward just after impact.
It turns out that if the cue ball has a fair distance to travel across the cloth, you want to hit a little lower than 70% because that gets more speed into the cue ball which the cloth will turn into more RPMs as the ball partly slides across the cloth. For most follow stroke shots, there is not that much distance, but if you want to do the "follow back to the cushion" shot for a ball near a far corner pocket, and are playing on older cloth, try not using max follow and see if the shot is easier.
The other way to think about the CB over spinning is what would happen if it did have over spin. You would end up pushing it with the cue. Much like a car tire on ice, it would start out just by spinning, and not moving forward, but your cue would continue forward.