Forget Price...Why don't you like Layered Tips???
- Thread starter Cuedog
- Start date
because they are layered!
Well, first let me clarify, I don't consider layered tips pricey. I have a lathe and buy them in volume so the cost of a layered tip doesn't affect my thoughts about them. I figure it costs me a few cents a day to play with one.
Having gotten that out of the way, I don't like layered tips because they are inconsistent. I want to play with a tip of one consistency. When I work down through the layers of leather and glue impregnated leather I get a tip with a soft center and a hard outside then a hard center and soft outside, back and forth all through the tip when shaping to a dime radius. I like a tip that is the same consistency all the way through.
Hu
Well, first let me clarify, I don't consider layered tips pricey. I have a lathe and buy them in volume so the cost of a layered tip doesn't affect my thoughts about them. I figure it costs me a few cents a day to play with one.
Having gotten that out of the way, I don't like layered tips because they are inconsistent. I want to play with a tip of one consistency. When I work down through the layers of leather and glue impregnated leather I get a tip with a soft center and a hard outside then a hard center and soft outside, back and forth all through the tip when shaping to a dime radius. I like a tip that is the same consistency all the way through.
Hu
In my experience I have had them fall apart, get hard(like a rock), get spongy, and the worst thing about them is they change over the life of the tip. I have had some start out great and after 30-40 hours of play they are hard or get softer-I have only had a few that stayed consistant.
So the lack of consistancy is why I dont like them. Though I have had one or two over the years that were ok. But a non-layered tip(when you geta good one) plays the same from beginning to end-for the most part.
^^his is just my experience, they work for alot of players though. Some pro's I know love them or hate them too.
So the lack of consistancy is why I dont like them. Though I have had one or two over the years that were ok. But a non-layered tip(when you geta good one) plays the same from beginning to end-for the most part.
^^his is just my experience, they work for alot of players though. Some pro's I know love them or hate them too.
Here's another slant on this. Back in the early 90's when that huge Moori tip boom was happening I was a strict Triangle user. Since Moori tips were the rave at the time, and everyone swore by them, I decided to give them a try. My instances of miscuing rose dramatically as did jumping the ball when I tried to do long draw shots and had to use more power in my stroke. I immediately went back to Triangles and swore off Morri tips. Well, years passed and my game improved. I don't know why but I had a Moori put on my cue and believe it or not all those bad things that happened to me when I was a B player weren't happening to me as an A player. I could only assume from that that as I progressed in my abilities my control got much better. I guess I didn't have the control back then. Now I use Moori tips but still have a soft spot for Triangles.
People are talking about inconsistency with layered tips but I've bad pressed tips too so I think it evens itself out over the long run.
MULLY
haven't had problems with layered tips as of yet.......knock on wood
People are talking about inconsistency with layered tips but I've bad pressed tips too so I think it evens itself out over the long run.
MULLY
haven't had problems with layered tips as of yet.......knock on wood
I use layered tips but the biggest problem I have with them is with the glue lines being areas that can cause miscues. What I mean is if you look straight down on a shaped layered tip you will have concentric rings going from the center of the tip to the outside. These areas if you happen to stroke a juice shot and contact that exact location are far more prone to miscues then contacting the actual leather.
That is a major problem I have had with layered tips and it does not happen with none layered tips because you do not have the concentric circles of glue.
That is a major problem I have had with layered tips and it does not happen with none layered tips because you do not have the concentric circles of glue.
They're too hard. If a cue tip doesn't mushroom, it does so for a reason. I find that I play better with a one piece tip, and have more security in them when spinning the ball.
People say the layered tips are more consistant. I'm just not a big fan of having a tip that is comprised of 20% (or more) glue. I like Le Pros and Triangles. If they work fine for me, there's absolutely no reason to switch, especially when the alternative doesn't perform as well, and costs 15 times more.
People say the layered tips are more consistant. I'm just not a big fan of having a tip that is comprised of 20% (or more) glue. I like Le Pros and Triangles. If they work fine for me, there's absolutely no reason to switch, especially when the alternative doesn't perform as well, and costs 15 times more.
the difference
The big difference to me is that single piece tips are either good or bad. If you get a bad one you cut it off and move on. The layered tips can be good bad and ugly all in one tip!
Of course I'm still trying to work my way up to being a "C" player. My opinions might change if I ever become a "B" or "A" player. Doubt it though, I hate letting the facts get in the way of a firmly held opinion! :grin-square:
:grin-square:
Hu
The big difference to me is that single piece tips are either good or bad. If you get a bad one you cut it off and move on. The layered tips can be good bad and ugly all in one tip!
Of course I'm still trying to work my way up to being a "C" player. My opinions might change if I ever become a "B" or "A" player. Doubt it though, I hate letting the facts get in the way of a firmly held opinion! :grin-square:
:grin-square: Hu
mullyman said:
:rotflmao1:Shawn Armstrong said:
Gene,
I completely agree with Hu on this one, and whoever said that they come
apart, and ironically enough, Shawn Armstrong.
Layers of glue in a tip just doesn't make sense to me, unless of course your
choice of tip is super hard and then maybe it's great.
A good triangle will not fail. lepro is the same way. cut it at 5000rpm and
then glue it on. :wink:
I like my Moori's just fine
I like my Moori's just fine. Happy with performance and would not switch back. I used to press my own Elkmasters and the whole process and time to firm up I have done away with.
The Moori's are 95% ready after a trim. Half-hour of play later we are good for at least 4~6 months. The occasional trim and shape once a month and I'm happy. I think people expect perfection. No trimming or re-shaping ever! I think how often you reshape a tip is predicated by how you play. How Hard. How much spin and how picky you are.
If someone introduces me a better product I'll try it. For now I'll stick with my Moori's.
I like my Moori's just fine. Happy with performance and would not switch back. I used to press my own Elkmasters and the whole process and time to firm up I have done away with.
The Moori's are 95% ready after a trim. Half-hour of play later we are good for at least 4~6 months. The occasional trim and shape once a month and I'm happy. I think people expect perfection. No trimming or re-shaping ever! I think how often you reshape a tip is predicated by how you play. How Hard. How much spin and how picky you are.
If someone introduces me a better product I'll try it. For now I'll stick with my Moori's.
Nick B said:
For what it's worth I cut the tip down when I put it on, trim it down again a few weeks later when it mushrooms, and they do mushroom, and then leave it like it is. In my opinion a tip takes on the shape of how you hit the ball. Once that tip shapes to my play I don't want to reshape it and have to go through all that again. Only thing I do is lightly scuff the top when it gets slick.
MULLY
I just had a silly realization...
I like layered tips. I don't like laminated shafts. My arguments contradict themselves. Hmmm...
Oh well, I guess you just find something you like to spend less time worrying about your equipment and more time playing the game we all love.
I like layered tips. I don't like laminated shafts. My arguments contradict themselves. Hmmm...
Oh well, I guess you just find something you like to spend less time worrying about your equipment and more time playing the game we all love.
I'm curious to know why you think it was the "concentric circles of glue" that make you miscue, and not the usual reasons we miscue using ANY tip. If one is chalking as they should, miscues usually happen because of a flawed stroke on that particular shot.Celtic said:
Contrary to the belief of some, the glue used in most layered tips, is more mailable rather than hard and brittle. There is far more leather contacting the ball than there is glue. Chalk and stroke is the key...just as it is with any tip.
Gene
Klopek, let it go man. We're here for you and you don't have to be afraid any longer.Klopek said:
I remember 12 - 15 years ago, I was installing the "Lama" Tip that was being produced by a well known company in the billiards industry. The Lama tip was, as you already figured out, a laminated tip. Well, those installs were a nightmare. The tips delaminated easily and were poor quality hitters. Well over the years, laminated tip makers as well as tip installers have gotten better. Most cuemakers/cue repairmen know how to install one properly, thereby reducing the tip failure rate to almost nothing.
Gene
Cuedog said:
I don't want to even think about delaminations... or worry that a bit of moisture can mess up the tip... or have to concern myself with my favorite method of squeaking the tip with the chalk. I don't want to look at those glue lines either, and wonder if that last miscue came from one of the lines. Also, I don't like to see chalk get under a layer. I like to be able to tip-pik the tip, and layered tips won't stand much of that treatment.
How's that? Enough??
Flex
P.S. I almost forgot to say, that given all the above misgivings and potential problems with layered tips, they really aren't such a good deal price-wise, especially if the tip dies prematurely, i.e., through delamination. Did I spell that word right, delamination?
I had my own lathe so price wasnt a factor really. I tried all of the Moori and they all seem to hard and couldnt hit the outside of the cueball like I am used to. If you stay to the center you are ok but thats not me. I have always played with LePro's and happen to like them for their playability not cheapness. They will mushroom but seem to play in well for me. I did hit balls briefly with a Talisman soft that played well but was told I must have gotten lucky as they are very inconsistant. I think it is just what you get used to.
To Cuedog:
OK, so are you asking for our opinion so you can tell us we're all wrong? There is a pretty high majority of players that do not like laminated tips. Get over it. Not everyone likes the Moori, or Sniper, or whatever the flavour of the month is in laminated tips. Whenever a new laminated tip comes out, it's the best UNTIL the next laminated tip comes out. I have stuck by Le Pro and Triangle tips since day 1. I have tried every tip on the market, and I always come back to old faithful.
Laminated tips are not better. They're different. That's all.
OK, so are you asking for our opinion so you can tell us we're all wrong? There is a pretty high majority of players that do not like laminated tips. Get over it. Not everyone likes the Moori, or Sniper, or whatever the flavour of the month is in laminated tips. Whenever a new laminated tip comes out, it's the best UNTIL the next laminated tip comes out. I have stuck by Le Pro and Triangle tips since day 1. I have tried every tip on the market, and I always come back to old faithful.
Laminated tips are not better. They're different. That's all.
Interesting how most have the same opinion but you really hear that come up in other discussions.
So yeah , I find that many times a layered tip will change playability as it goes thru the layers. That's my experience. I'm always waiting for it to go away at some point.
With a one piece tip , when you have a good one , you have it forever.
So yeah , I find that many times a layered tip will change playability as it goes thru the layers. That's my experience. I'm always waiting for it to go away at some point.
With a one piece tip , when you have a good one , you have it forever.
I don't like layed tips because they suck. LOL I can not fathom why I would want to chalk up glue lines or deal with layers if and or when they come off. I tried a few but still the same old stuff, they do mushroom, all of them I tried. Layers come off most of them and did not hold chalk worth a dam. If I have to be so delicate with a tempermental tip then its just not worth it to me.
Next comes one peice tips. Most of them I do not like, some are just ok. I use to play with Schon tips but they changed their mixture and just play to hard. I use to play with the brown WB which was perfect but they changed their mixture and now are to hard.
I gave up and went back to elk master. Years ago I use to firm them up by soaking in clear laquer then baking them. They still needed to be trimed after some play but that process was very quick and the tip life was easily over a year with a ton of play and breaking.
My last process over a year ago was soak them in water then compress. I realized I needed more consistancy so I guage by height how much they are compressed. This is the only tip I will ever use again. New It plays at best a med tip no more. It does firm up more after a year but no harder that a med hard. It holds chalk very well and it has never mushroomed. Not even one tiny little bit. I break with this tip as well and it probably still has another year or better of play left. Granted by then it will be on the hard side so I may cut it off before then. I have several more all the same I use on three different shafts. They all feel near the same but one shaft I use most so it is a little firmer than the rest. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. ha ha ha Layered tips suck, well so do most of them but who's counting.
Rod
Next comes one peice tips. Most of them I do not like, some are just ok. I use to play with Schon tips but they changed their mixture and just play to hard. I use to play with the brown WB which was perfect but they changed their mixture and now are to hard.
I gave up and went back to elk master. Years ago I use to firm them up by soaking in clear laquer then baking them. They still needed to be trimed after some play but that process was very quick and the tip life was easily over a year with a ton of play and breaking.
My last process over a year ago was soak them in water then compress. I realized I needed more consistancy so I guage by height how much they are compressed. This is the only tip I will ever use again. New It plays at best a med tip no more. It does firm up more after a year but no harder that a med hard. It holds chalk very well and it has never mushroomed. Not even one tiny little bit. I break with this tip as well and it probably still has another year or better of play left. Granted by then it will be on the hard side so I may cut it off before then. I have several more all the same I use on three different shafts. They all feel near the same but one shaft I use most so it is a little firmer than the rest. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. ha ha ha Layered tips suck, well so do most of them but who's counting.
Rod
I just re-read my posts. I have no clue where you are getting that I am telling all of the posters they are wrong. In fact, I purposely held back my opinion, for the most part, because it was not MY opinion that I wanted to solicit. I'm sorry if you got that perception Shawn.Shawn Armstrong said:
Gene