Forget Price...Why don't you like Layered Tips???

Cuedog said:
I just re-read my posts. I have no clue where you are getting that I am telling all of the posters they are wrong. In fact, I purposely held back my opinion, for the most part, because it was not MY opinion that I wanted to solicit. I'm sorry if you got that perception Shawn.

Gene
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We've all brought up the glue line issue. Jim Buss is the one that taught me about the glue line problem. You then tell us that this isn't true, and that this issue isn't tip related.

The problem is I experience at least a 5 or 6 to 1 ratio in miscues from my Moori tips to my Le Pro tips. I have had more costly miscues from the Moori, and it's right after I have chalked it. The same thing has happened from time to time with the Le Pro too, but not nearly as often.

Also, every so often you rough up the tip and lift an edge on one of the exposed layers in a laminated tip. That bugs me.
 
How many here play with two shafts? I've always alternated mine, using one on odd days and the other on even days. With one piece tips both shafts seldom played anywhere near the same. My Gulyassy came with Hercules mediums and the tips did not play anywhere near the same. Mike recommended switching to Moori mediums because the consistency would be closer. He was right. My older shafts both have LePros and play ok, but that is a rarity. I won't even get into my Triangle nightmares.
 
Pushout said:
How many here play with two shafts? I've always alternated mine, using one on odd days and the other on even days. With one piece tips both shafts seldom played anywhere near the same. My Gulyassy came with Hercules mediums and the tips did not play anywhere near the same. Mike recommended switching to Moori mediums because the consistency would be closer. He was right. My older shafts both have LePros and play ok, but that is a rarity. I won't even get into my Triangle nightmares.
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I play with two shafts. Both have milk duds on them, and play remarkably similarly.
 
Cuedog said:
I'm curious to know why you think it was the "concentric circles of glue" that make you miscue, and not the usual reasons we miscue using ANY tip. If one is chalking as they should, miscues usually happen because of a flawed stroke on that particular shot.

Contrary to the belief of some, the glue used in most layered tips, is more mailable rather than hard and brittle. There is far more leather contacting the ball than there is glue. Chalk and stroke is the key...just as it is with any tip.

Gene
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From ridiculous amounts of experience. I have had poorly built tips with more glue surface on the tip then normal and when miscuing I always look to see the area of tip contact after a miscue. With the worst of the layered tips I experienced this with each and every time I actually miscued the center of the miscue area where the chalk is missing would have the glue ring cut across the exact center of the miscue area. There are times these tips would show the lines even after chalking because while the leather holds chalk well the glue surfaces do not hold it nearly as well. You can try and fix this with tip picking, reshaping the tip, wetting it slightly with saliva (this is the best shortterm fix) but the fact remains the glue sections are a less then ideal thing to have then pure 100% leather.

While it is true a large amount of miscues are caused by poor strokes a tip can also cause a miscue on a stroke that would not miscue with a proper tip. For instance when you friend goes to the can next time you are playing a friendly match with him wet his tip greatly and then cover the evidence of this act with a layer of chalk. If he does not notice the first juice shot he takes will be a miscue. Probems can also take place with tips that are glazed over, they harden on the top and end up holding chalk very poorly, this is why picking a tip exists in the first place. The glue lines are pretty much akin to thin circles of glazed tip, the glue lines hold chalk about as well as a glazed tip surface but they are far harder to deal with then reshaping and moistening a dry and hardened tip. All tips are most definately not created equal.
 
Fatboy said:
In my experience I have had them fall apart, get hard(like a rock), get spongy, and the worst thing about them is they change over the life of the tip. I have had some start out great and after 30-40 hours of play they are hard or get softer-I have only had a few that stayed consistant.

So the lack of consistancy is why I dont like them. Though I have had one or two over the years that were ok. But a non-layered tip(when you geta good one) plays the same from beginning to end-for the most part.

^^his is just my experience, they work for alot of players though. Some pro's I know love them or hate them too.
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I've had the same results with solid tips. I believe the reason for layered tips to begin with is to remain consistent throught the life of the tip...
 
I have been using layered tips for years on my cue. But I have hit some balls with cues that have non-layered tips and always seem to hit just fine. I actually had to borrow a friends cue one night and he plays strictly with non layered tips and I could do anything with his cue that I could do with mine.

I had decided (before I saw this thread) that I am going to put on a non-layered tip next time I need a tip. Not just for the cost....but becuase I don't seem to notice any difference that would warrent the extra cost

(Other than layered tips seem to get rock hard after about the middle of the tip)
 
Both layered and non-layered tips have their faults. I've played with a few of both which I absolutely hated. I've tried a lot of tips looking for the perfect one.

For non-layered tips, I think it's hard to beat a Triangle. Nice firm hit, great consistency. Then again, I just got some in the mail which are basically falling apart. Non-pressed Elkmasters are too soft. Le Pros suck from my experience.

Layered tips, I like the Tiger Dynamite, and the Hercules Hard. Haven't had any problems with either. Snipers are good too, but too soft for my liking. The Everest I had before I hated. Miscued more than anything.
 
Klopek said:
Gene, there's nothing to let go really, I just plain love my Triangles and I'll leave it at that.

It does beg the question, why do layered tip lovers constantly harp on those of us who love non-layered tips?. Curious question. Yet these same people are purists about other things like regular shafts or pre-flag Master chalk.

I think there's enough room in this world for both schools of thought. I understand hy people use layered tips, I just don't happen to notice any performance improvement. If I like the feel, consistency and reliability of a non-layered tip like a Triangle (pressed), why bother changing?.

I've tried over a dozen layered tips over the last 10+ years and always went back to Triangle. Not for price or economics, but just preference.

I have to ask, did you start this thread out of curiosity, or were you looking for an opportunity to preach to the old-schoolers?.
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Finally! Someone asked why I opened the thread.

I wish I had some diabolical reason for doing so. It would make for a good read. However, the reason is a simple one. I opened the thread to learn what different players are thinking regarding why they choose a certain type of tip. That's it. Nothing more. Where else can I get this sort of universal input?

And by the way, I am an "old-schooler". :eek: :smile:

Gene
 
Thought I would post this picture of tiger Dynomite tip freshly installed so that everyone can see the glue lines we're speaking of.

PICT0016_edited-2.jpg


Gene
 
I have tried a few different layered tips.... and I still prefer the hardest triangle I can find..

and my reasoning is this...

the primary contact point where the tip meets the ball determines everything grip, spin imparted... ect...

but I believe that that point is much smaller than the chalk mark on the cue ball.. I see it as small as the contact point between two balls..

now.. is the glue going to hit the cue ball... or is the leather going to hit the cue ball... and what is the difference in that particular hit on that particular shot?


who knows???

but...

Once you have had one delaminate when it matters... you won't use one again.
 
softshot said:
I have tried a few different layered tips.... and I still prefer the hardest triangle I can find..

and my reasoning is this...

the primary contact point where the tip meets the ball determines everything grip, spin imparted... ect...

but I believe that that point is much smaller than the chalk mark on the cue ball.. I see it as small as the contact point between two balls..

now.. is the glue going to hit the cue ball... or is the leather going to hit the cue ball... and what is the difference in that particular hit on that particular shot?


who knows???

but...

Once you have had one delaminate when it matters... you won't use one again.
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Now that I think about it, it's the scenario where the tip delaminates at exactly the wrong moment, which to me is during a match. I've had that happen, and off come the top layers of the tip, then I try to reshape the tip with what's left of it. If it's tall, it can be pulled off. However... if the tip is medium to low then that layer or layers may just put the tip out of business.


At that point, out comes another shaft with a different tip. No big deal, right? Wrong, especially in a match. Even shafts and tips which are remarkably similar will normally exhibit slightly different playing characteristics. Imagine you're on the 7 ball in a hill-hill race, and need to draw the cue ball back to get shape on the 8, and nothing else will work in the situation. You need to draw back 18 inches at least, not 17 or 16, 18 at least, and more if possible. You're playing on a very slow table and need to stroke the cue ball a bit. Unfortunately, this replacement shaft and tip are a tad bit less lively than your wonderful Moori tipped shaft that just delaminated, leaving you with an unusable shaft and tip. So, to make sure you get the necessary 18 inches of draw on a difficult shot you put something extra into the stroke, and by golly, the object ball throws unexpectedly and comes off the point of the cushion, leaving your opponent an easy 3 ball out.

That, my friend, is one possible consequence of an untimely delamination.

FWIW, I've never had a milk dud delaminate on me :grin: Duhhhhh........ !!

Flex
 
nice!

Gene,

A beautifully shot image and a very nice job on the tip and ferule. Looking at this image the lines of impregnated leather look far smaller than they do on a tip that has seen some use. It might be because of the brand of tip or it might be because a customer hasn't worked on it with tip tools yet.

Look at the top two layers. As any type of tip tool is used two things usually happen. One, that tiny fraction of a layer that forms the center of the tip is gone leaving a flat spot of varying size depending on how much of a layer was left there. I think if layered tips are installed some effort should be made to maximize the thickness of that layer to try to avoid it coming off and leaving a flat spot or in the case here, by removing that tiny bit and shaping the next layer.

The next issue is the second layer down in your image. The edges are very finely feathered when cleanly cut as we see here. The outside third or so is very easily damaged by tip tools which can punch or tear all the way though it. After a little use I often see a very wide glue ring below this layer.

If the layered tips stayed exactly as pictured here or the same except deliberately leaving a far thicker center "dot" I'd probably be much happier with them. However the leather becomes much less finely feathered and the glue lines appear to be far wider in normal use. Possibly even chalking causes this damage although the verdict is still out on that in my opinion and unless someone else wants to pay for the test I'm not installing one of my dwindling supply of Moori III's to find out.

Hu


Cuedog said:
Thought I would post this picture of tiger Dynomite tip freshly installed so that everyone can see the glue lines we're speaking of.

PICT0016_edited-2.jpg


Gene
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