Foul or No Foul??
- Thread starter jsp
- Start date
jsp said:Thanks for the detective work.
That's what I originally thought happened. Not that Dennis followed through with his cue a full 6'', but that he probably didn't get his cue away fast enough as the CB started to draw back. 3'' of follow through plus 3'' of CB draw can equal double hit.
Assuming the ball never did hop, how could he jack up so much and have the CB move forward? Now that is illogical.
As I said before, the only other explanation is that he unintentionally jumped the CB off the playing surface which caused the bizarre CB behavior.
I'm still not completely certain he fouled or not, but my best guess is that he did.
Watch it again a few times. He doesn't follow through 3", he follows through 1". Also, the CB hardly draws back at all. What it does do, visibly, is hop. Seriously, watching the clip knowing the initial CB/OB separation is 6", it becomes clear that at the time when the CB reacts the way it does, the tip and the CB are at least 3" apart, if not 4 or 5. Orcollo has some pretty excellent CB control, but I'm pretty sure he can't double-hit it without even getting within a few inches of it!
Really, if the tip doesn't follow through more than 2", and the CB goes 6" before contacting anything, there's no double hit. If the CB drew back those 4 or 5 inches to contact the then-stationary tip, the second contact would be almost a full second after the first, and it would be really obvious, as in you wouldn't have to watch it twice to be sure that it was a blatant foul. There's just WAY too much separation for the foul you and sde are talking about to occur.
-Andrew
I think the CB has already contacted the 7 in this frame. I don't believe there was any draw on the CB.klockdoc said:I think I may have happened to catch it at just the right moment. Looks like after hitting the 5 there was distance between the cue ball and the seven before the completion of the shot. You decide.
Too many good points to add any more into this discussion.
pj
chgo
jsp said:Thanks for the detective work.
That's what I originally thought happened. Not that Dennis followed through with his cue a full 6'', but that he probably didn't get his cue away fast enough as the CB started to draw back. 3'' of follow through plus 3'' of CB draw can equal double hit.
Assuming the ball never did hop, how could he jack up so much and have the CB move forward? Now that is illogical.
As I said before, the only other explanation is that he unintentionally jumped the CB off the playing surface which caused the bizarre CB behavior.
I'm still not completely certain he fouled or not, but my best guess is that he did.
The ball definitely hopped - it can't be avoided when jacked up like that. And it's not at all illogical to get forward spin on the CB when jacked up. You can get forward spin on jump shots.
pj
chgo
Patrick Johnson said:
The forward spin occurs due to contact with the 5. The lower half of the CB hits the 5, because of the hop. The CB then rolls up the face of the 5 a fraction of an inch during contact, generating this forward spin.
-Andrew
Well, maybe... I don't believe the CB hopped nearly high enough for its contact with the OB to create any discernible forward spin. This kind of speculation underscores that we can't really tell what happened from this angle.
pj
chgo
pj
chgo
The CB is less than an inch from the rail and I think the angle is quite a bit less than 45 degrees (maybe 30?). We can't tell from our viewpoint whether he's hitting above or below center or what he's trying to do with the CB.
We can tell a little from the way the CB acts, and it doesn't look consistent with a double hit to me - uninterrupted movement and spin consistent with a legal hit slightly above effective center. It's also telling to me that his tip is pretty far right of center after hitting the CB, yet the CB continues to spin left from the transferred spin - a double hit that far from center would spin the CB to the right.
We just can't tell.
pj
chgo
Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, we can. We can see, on the video, how far he follows through the shot. We can see, on the video, how far apart the CB and the 5 are.
Therefore WE CAN TELL, that immediately after the CB contacts the 5, which is when the supposed double-hit would be taking place, the tip and the CB are 4 OR 5 INCHES apart!!!!
How can I make this more clear? We can speculate all day about what seems to appear in a couple of grainy youtube frames at the moment of contact, or we can compare 1" of tip travel to 6" of CB travel, and realize they can't be in the same place at the same time to create the second hit!!!!!
-Andrew
Andrew Manning said:
I agree with this. I've watched the video a few dozen times, and I actually think the video itself shows pretty clearly that there is no double hit.
As you say, the cueball and the 5 ball are a few inches apart--even a conservative estimate would put them at 4" or more apart. Orcullo shoots down through the cueball, and you can see that as the cueball contacts the 5, at which point his cue tip is at least 3" away from the cueball, and then contacts the 7, that his cuetip has not moved. It also looks like he hits at about center on the horizontal axis on the cueball, which means he's not really drawing the cueball. I think he's using a pretty full hit on the 7 to stop the cueball for the shot on the 6.
Patrick, I agree with you that you just can't tell from the angle that we are facing. Fun to try to figure it out though.
Think about this; When he was shooting the ball and due to the angle, the ball hopped and went forward (because the direction was to the left side of the 5), wouldn't the seven actually traveled in more of a forward direction?
You know, hop and then take a forward motion hitting about a 1/4 ball or more?
This seven traveled to the left almost 60 degrees. Almost indicative of a double hit?
Not saying a decision either way. Just throwing out some thoughts.
Think about this; When he was shooting the ball and due to the angle, the ball hopped and went forward (because the direction was to the left side of the 5), wouldn't the seven actually traveled in more of a forward direction?
You know, hop and then take a forward motion hitting about a 1/4 ball or more?
This seven traveled to the left almost 60 degrees. Almost indicative of a double hit?
Not saying a decision either way. Just throwing out some thoughts.
klockdoc said:
Sweet jeebus. One more time:
Yes, we can. We can see, on the video, how far he follows through the shot. We can see, on the video, how far apart the CB and the 5 are.
Therefore WE CAN TELL, that immediately after the CB contacts the 5, which is when the supposed double-hit would be taking place, the tip and the CB are 4 OR 5 INCHES apart!!!!
How can I make this more clear? We can speculate all day about what seems to appear in a couple of grainy youtube frames at the moment of contact, or we can compare 1" of tip travel to 6" of CB travel, and realize they can't be in the same place at the same time to create the second hit!!!!!
-Andrew
klockdoc said:
I don't understand what you're saying. The 7 isn't going to move forward (like the 5 did, for instance), because the cueball is not contacting the 7 almost straight on like it is the 5. The cueball comes off the 5 and hits the 7 at an angle, which drives the 7 over toward the 9. I don't see anything unusual in the action of the cueball or in the direction the 7 goes.
I could duplicate this shot exactly as it appears on the video without fouling, but I could not duplicate it as it appears on the video by double hitting the cueball.
jsp said:
It's hard to tell - the angle makes it look closer. Yes, it acts like a double hit, however, he spun the 5 in to avoid contact with the 7, so if the cueball is hit jacked up like that, you can get some funny action on the cueball.
If I'm going to spin a ball into the hole on a close call hit like that, I tell whoever is watching the hit what I plan on doing. They can see it easier if they know what to expect.
Chris
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klockdoc said:
The still from before the shot or after? Given the direction he is shooting the 5 ball in, in the still from before the shot it looks to me like the cueball will come off the 5 and send the 7 toward the 9.
In the still from after he shoots the cueball has already contacted the 7 ball, and the 7 ball and the cueball are both moving in the general direction of the 9.
It might help those still confused to look at the shadows of the balls on the table. There you can more easily see the distances invloved.
You can also see , if you look closely , that he actually jumps the CB into the 5 (or very nearly) on the fly and then into to 7.
You can also see , if you look closely , that he actually jumps the CB into the 5 (or very nearly) on the fly and then into to 7.
PoolBum said:
Oh, I took a dial caliper to the width of the balls and to the distance from the rail. Andrew is correct about 5 inches away from the rail.
Got home, set the shot up two balls off the rail to the 5. Cue ball 1 inch off the rail. Jacked up approximately same as Dennis. Shot the ball and one time the cue didn't hit the 7, next three times, the 7 went almost straight ahead 1/2 ball to the right of the 9).
Also, when I completed the shot, my cue was exactly in the same area, but, slightly to the left of my bridge area because I was using about 1/2 tip of left english.
Notice Dennis' position after completion of his shot! He is going to the right of the shot. A reaction possibly?
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