Frozen Cueball to object ball

[Bob Jewett]

... 9ball: Anytime the 9 drops on a legal shot it counts as a win. So it makes sense that it's a win on the snap.
...

Not if you rack your own and know where to leave the gaps. Some players know where to leave the gaps. If the rack is tight, the nine will not move unless it is hit by a banking ball. The break at nine ball has been broken for some time now.

As for eight ball, there are reasonable arguments on both sides of "eight wins on the break". Again, I don't think the eight moves much if the rack is actually tight and its movement is very dependent on gaps.

 

[L I F D 1]

It is not a double hit. The cue ball never leaves the tip during the contact.

This is a Legal Stroke?

if not, please explain Legal Stroke

 

[jay helfert]

Pushing the cue ball through the frozen object ball is a lot different from shooting through it with a normal stroke. Push shots are not allowed.

Are you saying that if you were frozen to the one ball you had to shoot away?

And exactly what was shooting across the ball? I've never seen that in any official rule set before the eight ball leagues started writing their own.

With all due respect Bob, shooting through the ball and pushing through the ball will look the same to all but a very trained eye. I repeat, it's a bad rule!

Shooting across the ball is exactly that, shooting at an angle across the object ball and not directly through it. I never said you had to shoot away from the ball Bob. That is your interpretation. But you knew that already.

 

[jay helfert]

Freddie is correct. When the cueball is frozen to the object ball a stroke through the cueball in any direction which causes both balls to move is legal. In my opinion, it's best if a referee can watch the stroke to determine if that stroke is legal or an illegal push. Another important factor to consider: are the two balls actually frozen? If not, then the whole situation is different. Again, a referee should be present to make the call.
The last time I saw this happen was at Steinway in a Charlie Williams "World 14.1" match between Johnny Archer and Stephan Cohen. Stephan pushed through, rather than stroking the cueball. Johnny questioned the shot, but there was no referee watching, so no foul was called.

That's my point Karl. This is an extremely hard call to make and allowing a player to shoot directly through the ball will be always be subject to interpretation. If you don't allow this shot you won't have any problems like the one you describe above.

 

[MattPoland]

This is a Legal Stroke?



if not, please explain Legal Stroke

BCAPL (CSI) defines it pretty well and I believe that matches how WPA enforces it.

Yes, the tip is contacting the CB while the CB is contacting the OB. But the tip/CB contact is “momentary”. What can’t happen is an additional OB contact the CB while the tip is still touching the CB.


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[Patrick Johnson]

This is a Legal Stroke?

if not, please explain Legal Stroke

In this case it means no longer-than-normal contact between tip and CB - "hit" it; don't "push" it.

Generally, it also means stroking more or less parallel with the stick.

[EDIT: I see MattPoland just posted the same thing.]

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...shooting through the ball and pushing through the ball will look the same to all but a very trained eye.

You're the pro ref, but they don't look at all similar to me. Seems to me anybody can see the difference.

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

You're the pro ref, but they don't look at all similar to me. Seems to me anybody can see the difference.

pj
chgo

Yes, the motions are very different.

 

[BRussell]

Not if you rack your own and know where to leave the gaps. Some players know where to leave the gaps. If the rack is tight, the nine will not move unless it is hit by a banking ball. The break at nine ball has been broken for some time now.

As for eight ball, there are reasonable arguments on both sides of "eight wins on the break". Again, I don't think the eight moves much if the rack is actually tight and its movement is very dependent on gaps.

I don't like the rule that 8 on the break wins, because it's inconsistent with the rules of 8-ball, that you have to make all of your group and then the 8.

The rule that 9 on the break wins is fine because it's consistent with the rules of 9 ball. I see lots of restrictions, like about which pocket the 9 can go in on the break. Again, inconsistent with the rules of the game.

 

[MattPoland]

I don’t like winning on the break because I’d rather win by playing pool.


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[jay helfert]

You're the pro ref, but they don't look at all similar to me. Seems to me anybody can see the difference.

pj
chgo

I'll show you some time. I contend that I can shoot a shot that looks like a normal stroke and actually push the object ball. By being allowed to shoot directly through the object ball there are all kinds of crazy things you can do on a shot, like throwing the ball in different directions. Plus there is a gray area here that can be very hard to distinguish by anyone who is not a very experienced referee. Bottom line is that you should never be able to shoot directly through a frozen ball. Whatever rules committee decided that it was okay to do that should all be replaced IMHO. :thumbup:

 

[Poolmanis]

This is just one more skill every serious player should learn.
You can play even position from frozen ball shots.
Trick shot artist know these shots normally well.
Why people want change rules and take away cool skill shot from game?

It is because they don´t know what is the difference of legal frozen shot. It is obvious after you practice it little. It does not need trained eye.

 

[MattPoland]

What would Efren do? He wouldn’t abuse the rule (either way) and he would make the most of his options under any rule set. No hitting through the ball? No problem. I’ll hit a 4-rail kick-safe. Allow it? The I know every trick to send it to any pocket.


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[jay helfert]

Let me give you one more example of why this is a bad rule. The cue ball is frozen to the object ball and you shoot directly through it. What happens? The cue ball follows on a path in the same direction as the object ball, at almost the same speed. I contend that this has to be a 'push' through the object ball to make this happen. IMO that is one BIG foul! Any so called rules official who wants to make that shot legal should not be on a rules committee for Pool. They belong on a rules committee for Checkers.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Let me give you one more example of why this is a bad rule. The cue ball is frozen to the object ball and you shoot directly through it. What happens? The cue ball follows on a path in the same direction as the object ball, at almost the same speed. I contend that this has to be a 'push' through the object ball to make this happen. IMO that is one BIG foul!

Maybe you should defer to actual scientists on what actually happens.

https://billiards.colostate.edu/FAQ/foul/frozen/

Maybe it should be a foul despite the reality - but it's really not a double hit or push.

Any so called rules official who wants to make that shot legal should not be on a rules committee for Pool. They belong on a rules committee for Checkers.

Where does a ref belong who makes unfounded proclamations and insults?

pj
chgo

 

[Maniac]

I don’t like winning on the break because I’d rather win by playing pool.


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Best post on the thread (even if it's not on the OP's subject).

No game should be won on the break, IMO. A game should be won by skillfully shooting balls at a pocket, not by breaking the rack. That said, if a breaker wants to call a shot to go in (8, 9, or 10-ball) and makes that ball, it should count as a win. BUT....if the called ball isn't pocketed but another ball goes in then the breaker must relinquish his turn at the table. This seems more than fair to me. Nothing worse than a hill-hill match being decided on a lucky break shot (and I've seen it happen more than a few times).

Okay.......back to double-hit discussion. :thumbup:

Maniac

 

[kevoka]

I was explaining this issue to a guy last night.

If you want to feel the difference, start with a frozen cue ball. Point you finger at the point on the cueball your cue would hit and firmly poke through the cue ball. You will feel a single hit. You will not feel a push unless you really extend the poke.

Put the cueball 1/4-38 inches away. Again poke firmly. You will feel the double hit.

 

[Nostroke]

It's impossible to not double hit or have the stick influence the OB when they are frozen so there is no sense making a rule about it-shoot away.

 

[jay helfert]

Maybe you should defer to actual scientists on what actually happens.

https://billiards.colostate.edu/FAQ/foul/frozen/

Maybe it should be a foul despite the reality - but it's really not a double hit or push.


Where does a ref belong who makes unfounded proclamations and insults?

pj
chgo

Patrick, the shot shown on the video is not the shot I described. Maybe you should read my comments in post #34 again.

 

[Bob Jewett]

It's impossible to not double hit or have the stick influence the OB when they are frozen so there is no sense making a rule about it-shoot away.

Should you get credit for the hit as in snooker?

What sort of "influence" do you feel the stick has on the OB when they are frozen?