Frozen Cueball to object ball

Bob Jewett said:
Should you get credit for the hit as in snooker?

What sort of "influence" do you feel the stick has on the OB when they are frozen?
Click to expand...

Let me ask you on here Bob. Do you think it's okay to shoot the cue ball directly through the object ball, on a straight line, when they are frozen together? Do you think this should be a legal shot in Pool? You do know the shot I'm talking about, where the cue ball follows the same path as the object ball right behind it.
 
jay helfert said:
Let me ask you on here Bob. Do you think it's okay to shoot the cue ball directly through the object ball, on a straight line, when they are frozen together? Do you think this should be a legal shot in Pool? You do know the shot I'm talking about, where the cue ball follows the same path as the object ball right behind it.
Click to expand...
By the current rules of pool, that is a legal shot. And here is a little bit of history that some people seem to be unaware of....

This was the rule in 1916 in the Brunswick rule book. At that time Brunswick controlled the pool championships and published the most widely available set of rules:

Misc 001.jpg

Here is the rule from the 1977 BCA rule book. These were the official rules of pool that governed championships at the time:

Misc 002.jpg

So far as I know, the official rules of pool have always allowed the player to shoot directly at a frozen object ball.
 
Bob Jewett said:
By the current rules of pool, that is a legal shot. And here is a little bit of history that some people seem to be unaware of....

This was the rule in 1916 in the Brunswick rule book. At that time Brunswick controlled the pool championships and published the most widely available set of rules:

View attachment 516052

Here is the rule from the 1977 BCA rule book. These were the official rules of pool that governed championships at the time:

View attachment 516053

So far as I know, the official rules of pool have always allowed the player to shoot directly at a frozen object ball.
Click to expand...

"So far as you know." Bob, I watched and refereed major tournaments for over 50 years and we never allowed this type of shot. A player either had to elevate his cue to not go straight through the object ball, or hit the object ball at an angle. I'm sorry to inform you but the BCA rules were not always adhered to in professional tournaments because of such lapses like this. They would never allow this shot in Straight Pool tournaments that I worked on! See how far you get shooting that shot in a major One Pocket tournament. Unfortunately the BCA rules were written by amateur officials for amateur players.

I'm glad that I'm not directing tournaments any more, because of how the rules of play have been bastardized to make the game less fan friendly and not nearly as interesting to watch. Call shot on all balls, no two way shots, the ten ball does not count on the break, the eight ball no longer counts on the break in Eight Ball. I could go on, but that's enough for now. I'm watching the game I love devolve into a rule making contest. Rules upon rules. Carry on.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
What exactly is wrong with it? There's clearly no double hit or prolonged contact. Do you think whatever "seems like it's illegal" to you should be illegal, or should we go with actual demonstrated facts?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong at all. That's a beautiful shot. Thanks for sharing that with us for our edification. I'd like to see you and Bob officiating matches where players are shooting "legal" shots like that, firing the ball into the pack and breaking everything up. That would be fun to see.

The difference between us is that I actually worked refereeing major pool tournaments for a lifetime and saw what can happen if you allow players to shoot any kind of shot they like. There must be restrictions on shots like this or the game would look like chaos on a pool table. There is a reason why hiding the cue ball behind and frozen to an object ball is a good shot. That reason goes out the window when you allow his opponent to do this. I can only imagine a game of Straight Pool or One Pocket where you allow shots like this. That would get ugly fast.
 
jay:

things have changed to the better. the level of play is so good that call shot is a must, the same goes for moneyball on the break rules. if anything, break should be made harder.. (three balls to kitchen rule is good, but i also like the break box rule). one can still play two way shots with call shot.. only "call shot-call safe" prevents two way shots and that is hardly ever used.
 
Why on a frozen ball hit with low english does the cueball not come backwards?

I think the answer is that a “momentary push” occurred. The CB action was unnatural in my opinion. It’s absolutely a good hit under current rules since it isn’t a “prolonged push”. And it’s a reasonable opinion to believe the rules should be different than they are.

For now, it is what it is. This rule in 8/9/10-ball applies maybe once in a race to 9. So I’m not overly concerned. I can see a reason to feel strongly for 14.1/1P/Banks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
MattPoland said:
Why on a frozen ball hit with low english does the cueball not come backwards?

I think the answer is that a “momentary push” occurred. The CB action was unnatural in my opinion. It’s absolutely a good hit under current rules since it isn’t a “prolonged push”. And it’s a reasonable opinion to believe the rules should be different than they are.

For now, it is what it is. This rule in 8/9/10-ball applies maybe once in a race to 9. So I’m not overly concerned. I can see a reason to feel strongly for 14.1/1P/Banks.
Click to expand...
One additional wrinkle in the rules that goes unnoticed -- and greatly affects the play at 14.1 and one pocket -- is that if a second object ball (or a bunch of object balls) is close to the first object ball you are not allowed a stroke that has tip-to-ball contact when that second object ball is struck.

Here is a demo of the issue: Freeze the cue ball to OB1. Place OB2 directly in line and six inches away. Play a firm draw shot with a short (less than six-inch follow through) stroke straight at OB2. The cue ball will draw back nicely. Move OB2 closer to the frozen pair and repeat. Eventually you will see a change in what the cue ball does. That is a foul.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Freeze the cue ball to OB1. Place OB2 directly in line and six inches away. Play a firm draw shot with a short (less than six-inch follow through) stroke straight at OB2. The cue ball will draw back nicely.
Click to expand...
Not for me...? I always get a double hit.

But it's pretty obvious when this happens, so no reason to change the rule IMO.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Because the CB stops (because of the backspin) and is hit a second time by the tip. This is an exception that I hadn't considered - wonder if there are more...?



pj

chgo
Click to expand...


That’s what I assume when there’s a gap.

That’s not what it looks like in the HSV (shot 2)
https://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-96.htm

It looks like you’re momentarily pushing both balls forward at the same time. And the CB looks similar to shooting a CB with draw by itself. It just starts moving forward with backspin.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
MattPoland said:
That’s what I assume when there’s a gap.

That’s not what it looks like in the HSV (shot 2)
https://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-96.htm

It looks like you’re momentarily pushing both balls forward at the same time. And the CB looks similar to shooting a CB with draw by itself. It just starts moving forward with backspin.
Click to expand...
I guess the CB is prevented from moving forward at all (by the backspin), resulting in a push rather than a double hit. I can't see the video because I keep getting this error at Dr. Dave's site...

vid.JPG

Anybody know why or how to fix this?

pj
chgo
 
jay helfert said:
Nothing wrong at all. That's a beautiful shot. Thanks for sharing that with us for our edification. I'd like to see you and Bob officiating matches where players are shooting "legal" shots like that, firing the ball into the pack and breaking everything up. That would be fun to see.

The difference between us is that I actually worked refereeing major pool tournaments for a lifetime and saw what can happen if you allow players to shoot any kind of shot they like. There must be restrictions on shots like this or the game would look like chaos on a pool table. There is a reason why hiding the cue ball behind and frozen to an object ball is a good shot. That reason goes out the window when you allow his opponent to do this. I can only imagine a game of Straight Pool or One Pocket where you allow shots like this. That would get ugly fast.
Click to expand...

There is a big difference between being allowed (under the rules) to attempt a legal shot, and actually accomplishing one. What player in his right mind would chance it if he suspected the referee had an ‘attitude’? The rules also state that when the legality of a shot/hit is too close to call, the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. Few would be so naive as to expect that such a referee wouldn’t have a preconceived opinion about the likelihood of the outcome, and rule thusly? Automatically excluding any attempt at a shot clearly allowed under the rules is, in effect, proclaiming the assumption that players cannot be trusted to call a foul on themselves. Even the most attentive referee cannot always discern the double hit, but the player usually knows, and so do many spectators. It is insulting to disallow the opportunity for a player to exhibit his integrity and character (or lack of it).
 
jay helfert said:
This is a terrible rule! I can do all kinds of funny things with an object ball frozen to the cue ball if I'm allowed to shoot/push through it. We never used to allow shots like this. You had to either shoot away from the frozen ball or shoot across it. One more example of a rules committee that has little real understanding of our game. If that offends anyone on here, so be it.

Here's a couple more genius rule changes by the powers that be. Making the eight on the break in Eight Ball is no longer a win. This is a LOT harder to do then making the nine ball on the break and yet one counts and the other doesn't. No more two way shots! This is only one of the more interesting shots (offensively and defensively) in the games of 9-Ball and Ten Ball. The ten ball does not count on the break in Ten Ball! Again, far harder to do then make the nine ball on the break and yet it doesn't count. There are more, but you get the idea.
Click to expand...
One of the coolest shots occurs when ,with frozen CB, shooter shoots thru/pushes thru the CB with elevated butt of cue, and the CB travels a desired distance and stops...a very useful shot for safety ploys. I assume this is totally legal? Some guys can control the distance the CB travels to a "t".
 
Last edited:
jay helfert said:
This is a terrible rule! I can do all kinds of funny things with an object ball frozen to the cue ball if I'm allowed to shoot/push through it. We never used to allow shots like this. You had to either shoot away from the frozen ball or shoot across it. One more example of a rules committee that has little real understanding of our game. If that offends anyone on here, so be it.

Here's a couple more genius rule changes by the powers that be. Making the eight on the break in Eight Ball is no longer a win. This is a LOT harder to do then making the nine ball on the break and yet one counts and the other doesn't. No more two way shots! This is only one of the more interesting shots (offensively and defensively) in the games of 9-Ball and Ten Ball. The ten ball does not count on the break in Ten Ball! Again, far harder to do then make the nine ball on the break and yet it doesn't count. There are more, but you get the idea.
Click to expand...



So why not do some of those funny things if they help you in a game? I think rules that favor the more knowledgeable player are generally better.

Also I disagree that the 9 on the break is easier. With a frozen rack, it is extremely difficult to make the 9 on the break. The 8 however can be made with some regularity with a 2nd ball break, regardless of the quality of the rack (within reason).

Not sure I have any big objection to any of the rules you mentioned here.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top