frustration with sighting/aiming

PKM

PKM

OB-1 Kenobi
Silver Member
Sorry, this is a bit long to explain myself. I've been working on my straight-in shots, but whenever I think I've discovered how exactly my sighting is off, it doesn't seem to be consistent. For shooting straight-in shots into one corner along the diagonal, sometimes I am consistently favoring one side of the object ball. When I switched to shooting in the other corner, sometimes it seems like I'm favoring the opposite side of the object ball, but it seems less consistent.

But when I test out shooting by just trusting my eyes so it looks totally straight-in without any attempt to compensate for possible sighting flaws, sometimes I'll be dead-on, other times I'll be off.

I just started trying Joe Tucker's 3rd eye, so it's too early to conclude anything. But you've got two potential problems to correct, right? First is hitting center cue ball, and second is your sighting on aiming to the object ball. Joe talks about how it looks like he's cutting the ball slightly when he shoots -- you can only discover that through trial and error I suppose, but again that's why it's frustrating to not see a consistent bias. I can hit center cue ball but still favor one side of the object ball without realizing it. It seems to me the only way your off-center cue ball hit would be directly related is if it's causing squirt, which may be a contributing factor, but I don't think is the main problem. But I suppose it's good to eliminate an off-center cue ball hit as one variable when trying to correct your sighting.

Anyone have similar experiences or thoughts on trying to correct your sighting?

Merry Xmas
 
PKM said:
Sorry, this is a bit long to explain myself. I've been working on my straight-in shots, but whenever I think I've discovered how exactly my sighting is off, it doesn't seem to be consistent. For shooting straight-in shots into one corner along the diagonal, sometimes I am consistently favoring one side of the object ball. When I switched to shooting in the other corner, sometimes it seems like I'm favoring the opposite side of the object ball, but it seems less consistent.

But when I test out shooting by just trusting my eyes so it looks totally straight-in without any attempt to compensate for possible sighting flaws, sometimes I'll be dead-on, other times I'll be off.

I just started trying Joe Tucker's 3rd eye, so it's too early to conclude anything. But you've got two potential problems to correct, right? First is hitting center cue ball, and second is your sighting on aiming to the object ball. Joe talks about how it looks like he's cutting the ball slightly when he shoots -- you can only discover that through trial and error I suppose, but again that's why it's frustrating to not see a consistent bias. I can hit center cue ball but still favor one side of the object ball without realizing it. It seems to me the only way your off-center cue ball hit would be directly related is if it's causing squirt, which may be a contributing factor, but I don't think is the main problem. But I suppose it's good to eliminate an off-center cue ball hit as one variable when trying to correct your sighting.

Anyone have similar experiences or thoughts on trying to correct your sighting?

Merry Xmas
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Merry Xmas to you too. I'm in the same boat as you - someone who's continually working on their game and straight shots. When I'm off on the straight shots, I attribute it to alignment. What I use is an eye patch over my non-dominant eye. You can get one at Walgreens for about $5. It's difficult at first, but if you stick with it a while you'll find yourself in a groove. I might practice straight shots with it 3 or 4 days in a row, until I feel I'm back in line. I wouldn't use it practicing angle shots though - I think lining up those shots requires both eyes.
 
A lot of factors can come into play with aiming/sighting. A lot of the time it's a stroke flaw that is the underlying issue, but this may not be the case in your situation. What you see is one thing, how straight the stroke is is another. A few tips I would give are.

1. If you shoot with your chin touching the cue, as your going down into your stance, pause half way down and look at the shot and the angle to the pocket. Do a few warm up strokes in this position and see the shot. Once you've done this, slowly lower yourself until your chin is where you need it to be. The taller you are, the better you see angles, the lower you are, the better you see the cue ball path. Give yourself both sets of data and your brain will fill in the blanks. Many people drop into their stance like there's a brick tied around their neck. Take your time and see ALL the shot.

2. Be more specific in what you're actually aiming at. Don't think in terms of half ball, quarter ball, think in terms of point size. Teach your eyes to hone in on this tiny spot from any distance and you will become more accurate. Vagueness often causes misses.

3. If your stroke may be flawed, try to find where the cue needs to ride so that your stroke is nice and straight. Learn to shoot from there. Many people get hung up on keeping the cue centered under their chin when some just don't see center properly like that. If you're forcing yourself to center the cue undeer your chin, it can cause your sighting to be off. Do you ever find your eyes get tired after a long session, this is a sign that you're fighting to find center. Wherever the cue rides, right, left or center of your chin your eyes will adjust in no time. The most important thing is that your stroke is straight, not how textbook you look.
 
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Another possibility is that you could be cross aimimg. Where is your tip at the end of every stroke????

Drop a chalk line down from the head string to the middle of the bottom corner pocket. Put hole re-enforcers on the kithen, one diamond and two diamond lines. Shoot several set-up stop shots from each distance. After every shot, where is my tip? It should be on the chalk line........SPF=randyg
 
With the 3rd eye device, it will seem like your slightly cutting the ball on a straight in shot when you line up, but after a short while, you will actually take a second look and say "hey...this does look straight in after all". Your eyes are adjusting to your new alignment. If you use the 3rd eye stroke trainer often, and you use it as directed, I guarantee it will fix your problem, and it will also fix alot of other problems you might have, like a twist in your stroke, etc.

When you get a real straight stroke, and you can hit the dead center of the cueball, it's a great feeling. It's such a solid hit. You will realize that you don't need sidespin on the majority of your shots, the vertical axis is good enough for most shots. Mark Wilson calls it "The Joys of Straight Cueing". I agree with him. :)
 
Try video-taping yourself. You'll be surprised at what you see. I have my daughter tape me and then watch after each shot; that way you can correct as you go. I use a tripod when I'm alone.

JED
 
Klopek said:
A lot of factors can come into play with aiming/sighting. A lot of the time it's a stroke flaw that is the underlying issue, but this may not be the case in your situation. What you see is one thing, how straight the stroke is is another. A few tips I would give are.

1. If you shoot with your chin touching the cue, as your going down into your stance, pause half way down and look at the shot and the angle to the pocket. Do a few warm up strokes in this position and see the shot. Once you've done this, slowly lower yourself until your chin is where you need it to be. The taller you are, the better you see angles, the lower you are, the better you see the cue ball path. Give yourself both sets of data and your brain will fill in the blanks. Many people drop into their stance like there's a brick tied around their neck. Take your time and see ALL the shot.

2. Be more specific in what you're actually aiming at. Don't think in terms of half ball, quarter ball, think in terms of point size. Teach your eyes to hone in on this tiny spot from any distance and you will become more accurate. Vagueness often causes misses.

3. If your stroke may be flawed, try to find where the cue needs to ride so that your stroke is nice and straight. Learn to shoot from there. Many people get hung up on keeping the cue centered under their chin when some just don't see center properly like that. If you're forcing yourself to center the cue undeer your chin, it can cause your sighting to be off. Do you ever find your eyes get tired after a long session, this is a sign that you're fighting to find center. Wherever the cue rides, right, left or center of your chin your eyes will adjust in no time. The most important thing is that your stroke is straight, not how textbook you look.
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Excellent information! Well done.
 
Here's how I get my eyes working together for long shots:

I do what I did as a kid. I use my cuestick to poke at balls near the opposite end rail in order to bounce the balls off the end rail. I hold the stick about midway to balance it and point it at a far away ball and just tap the ball, let it rebound into the opposite end rail, then tap it again to rebound, and repeat. This makes my eyes know where the tip is at a long distance. After doing this for a few minutes, I reset my long shot and attempt it. Most times, my eyes know what they're seeing at that distance and my cut angle is good and I pot the ball.

Try it and see if it works for you the way it works for me.

Jeff Livingston
 
Both Klopek and Randyg provided good information. I find that in as much as 90% of students who perceive that they have aiming problems, as described by the original poster, it is nearly always related to cuestick setup and delivery. Once the student learns how to consistently setup and deliver the cue in a straight line, with proper timing, aiming problems, in most cases, go away, or are significantly reduced.

Klopek's comment about "centering the cue under the chin" vs. what someone might "see" as a straight line, was spot on. For the majority of poolplayers, where they 'see' a straight line will NOT be with the cue centered exactly under their chin. It may be only slightly off center, or could be a mile off (like Earl Strickland or Niels Feijen, for example), but it is rarely dead center under the chin. As long as the student knows where to line up the cue, where they see a straight line...and then can deliver the cue in the same manner...the stroke can be perfectly effective and consistent, regardless of where the cue is under your head.

Merry Christmas!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
Both Klopek and Randyg provided good information. I find that in as much as 90% of students who perceive that they have aiming problems, as described by the original poster, it is nearly always related to cuestick setup and delivery. Once the student learns how to consistently setup and deliver the cue in a straight line, with proper timing, aiming problems, in most cases, go away, or are significantly reduced. Klopek's comment about "centering the cue under the chin" vs. what someone might "see" as a straight line, was spot on. For the majority of poolplayers, where they 'see' a straight line will NOT be with the cue centered exactly under their chin. It may be only slightly off center, or could be a mile off (like Earl Strickland or Niels Feijen, for example), but it is rarely dead center under the chin. As long as the student knows where to line up the cue, where they see a straight line...and then can deliver the cue in the same manner...the stroke can be perfectly effective and consistent, regardless of where the cue is under your head.

Merry Christmas!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Scott,

I have a question for you. This never made any sense to me and seems related to what you are talking about here. I've seen several top players, both past and present, line up the tip of their cue well off center on the Cue Ball. And still use all kinds of different
English on the follow thru.

Jimmy Moore for instance, used to aim way low left, before stroking. And yet, when he went thru the Cue Ball, it was a good hit. Maybe you've also seen some players who do this. Do you have any idea what this is about?

This is not a trick question. I just never understood this aiming technique, particularly when I saw good players using it. I'm asking you because you seem quite well respected as an instructor and have a grasp on proper aiming. Thanks for your thoughts.
 
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???????????

Might be your stroke.Place Q-ball about 1" above spot shoot at center diamond at breaking end of table. Do this by placing piece of chalk on diamond use center cue -ball shoot normal stroke. If you're cueball does
not pass through spot you need to work on stroke.
Pinocchio
 
Thanks for the advice. By the way, as best as I can tell, I naturally line up with the cue under my dominant (right) eye. Don't have my own table, but hoping to get lessons in the near future, so I'll get some video feedback.
 
jay helfert said:
Scott,

I have a question for you. This never made any sense to me and seems related to what you are talking about here. I've seen several top players, both past and present, line up the tip of their cue well off center on the Cue Ball. And still use all kinds of different
English on the follow thru.

Jimmy Moore for instance, used to aim way low left, before stroking. And yet, when he went thru the Cue Ball, it was a good hit. Maybe you've also seen some players who do this. Do you have any idea what this is about?

This is not a trick question. I just never understood this aiming technique, particularly when I saw good players using it. I'm asking you because you seem quite well respected as an instructor and have a grasp on proper aiming. Thanks for your thoughts.
Click to expand...


Jay,
I think some of them (like Busta) cut the cue ball half...or what ever fraction is required. Then upon execution of the shot the loop up to the desired horizontal position. I do the same thing on tough long straight in or skinny cuts, except I don't loop.

I setup my address stance to the ball by showing extreme draw.
Then once my alignment is right I bring up the tip to the contact point required.
Practice stroke(s), pause and fire.

Nick
 
I love straight in long or short shots since Tommy Burr told me to aim at the spot on the table where the object ball is sitting ,you have plenty of room for error even in tight pockets. I suggest trying this and watching where your cue ends up at end of stroke to get a idea about your aim. Hope this helps someone as much as it helped me.
 
jay helfert said:
Scott,

I have a question for you. This never made any sense to me and seems related to what you are talking about here. I've seen several top players, both past and present, line up the tip of their cue well off center on the Cue Ball. And still use all kinds of different
English on the follow thru.

Jimmy Moore for instance, used to aim way low left, before stroking. And yet, when he went thru the Cue Ball, it was a good hit. Maybe you've also seen some players who do this. Do you have any idea what this is about?

This is not a trick question. I just never understood this aiming technique, particularly when I saw good players using it. I'm asking you because you seem quite well respected as an instructor and have a grasp on proper aiming. Thanks for your thoughts.
Click to expand...


I have the same question! I've known a few players, one of whom used to play very well, who do this and I've never understood how they manage to make a ball, but obviously they do. I've also heard about truly great players, such as Cicero Murphy, who did this. Was it a conscious attempt to hide their strokes, or what? I'd also like to hear from anyone who could describe the aiming system(s) used for these strokes or is it, as I suspect, largely a matter of feel and experience?
 
Do Not Overcomplicate It ...

If you lose yourself in the details too much, you can become lost.

It's simple - If there are certain shots that you consistently miss the same way everytime, then compensate for that error. I first did this with backbanks to the side pocket when I noticed I was coming up short everytime from what I thought was a correct aim. I adjusted a 1/4" more from the way I was seeing it at the time, and you know what, I started making all of them, to the point that it is one of my favorite shots to shoot, even the extreme angle ones. And it has become second nature to me now.

I have other shots when I have a tendency to aim too thick, so I compensate on those shots too. I did this partly because I have extremely bad eyes with corneal damage, so I accepted that what I was seeing was not entirely correct. This has worked for me well, and I think you will find over time, that knowledge is more powerful in Pool than sight.
 
I have a similar problem at times. Some days I have a pretty difficult time with long straight in shots. Yesterday, I bet I didn't average making 6 out of 10. In my frustration, I decided to try the same shot with my eyes closed. I made the shot much more consistently with my eyes closed than open. I guess this indicates some type of body movement or maybe steering? Help!
 
jay helfert said:
Scott,

I have a question for you. This never made any sense to me and seems related to what you are talking about here. I've seen several top players, both past and present, line up the tip of their cue well off center on the Cue Ball. And still use all kinds of different
English on the follow thru.

Jimmy Moore for instance, used to aim way low left, before stroking. And yet, when he went thru the Cue Ball, it was a good hit. Maybe you've also seen some players who do this. Do you have any idea what this is about?

This is not a trick question. I just never understood this aiming technique, particularly when I saw good players using it. I'm asking you because you seem quite well respected as an instructor and have a grasp on proper aiming. Thanks for your thoughts.
Click to expand...

Jay:

I spent several years around "Cowboy". I asked him about that cueing technique a couple of times, never got a real answer. If I recall properly it was always bottom right hand english. Boy, what a champion. Even in his later years he played extremely well. Maybe some of my friends in Albuquerque will know this answer.....randyg
 
I would go along with what others mentioned about stroke or stance and trying to get some consistancy in both. Part of my warm up shots is to set the 9 ball on the head dot and shot center ball to the diamond on the side rail-inline with the head dot. When I stroke thru the shot, I will keep the tip of my cue right where it's at when leaving the 9ball and when the ball rolls back it should hit the tip of the cue. (Assuming the rail is good) Using a stripe ball, it will show the spin of how you hit the ball and give you a visual idea of where you hit it. Once I get some consistancy I will move the 9 ball back further and keep shooting. If I am off, I will check my stance, look back at my stroke and make sure I am far enough down on the ball. That is almost always my problem, not being bent down far enough.

I too get down on my shot aiming with low english, but as I setup the shot, I will move the tip of my cue to the spot on the cueball. This drives people crazy watching, but it works for me.

ez
 
My theory or guess on some top players that line up off center or to a certain spot every time on the cue ball (usually low, left or right of center).

I’ve found a lot of players do this or at least an unusually large percentage of run out players and most of them don’t know they’re doing this and don’t know how it is actually helping them but I believe it does help them and I would not suggest the 3rd Eye Stroke Trainer to these players. I mean I invented the thing to correct this problem but that was for the masses that have not learned to make this subconscious method work for them, to these few top players I believe it’s a positive but to the masses I believe it’s a negative.

I think Bustamante might be one of the few players to do it consciously as he was once quoted as saying he likes to get the tip out of the way while aiming because it gives him a clearer picture of the shot and I believe this is how it helps these other players that are doing it subconsciously. In another post somebody referred to Robb Saez as cueing up real low on his break shot then coming up to center, if you look closely at Robb either live or on that tape you’ll see that he’s usually lined up with a full tip of low left on almost every shot he shoots no matter what he’s going to put on the cue ball (by the way, Congrats Robb, nice WIN), Tony Roberto they same and as Jay stated there are probably a bunch more. (You also have players like Jim Rempe and Tony Robles that have learned to cue up center ball by knowing that it has to look a little wrong to them, either to the left or right slightly, so they trust their experience more than the picture their eyes show them) With the cue stick out of the way I believe these players are using more of a ball to ball image to aim (more feel, more of a mental picture). The only problem I see with these players and players that play at a lower level with the same problem is the timing of that last stroke which swings to the place they actually want to hit the cue ball. The less they’re playing the worse off their timing is going to be. (as with most of us)
I did hear of a method somewhere (maybe in one of Hals methods, not sure) you cue up a straight in shot with your cue tip way off to either side of the cue ball and then once you’re aimed you bring the tip in to the center, I’ve tried it and it seemed to work not sure why I didn’t continue though. The cue stick being seen by both eyes (pointing in 2 different directions) could be a root cause for many of us lining up and sighting shots improperly. There’s still a lot in this area of the game we just don’t know enough about!

Lotta good info in this post, the slightly higher up look definitely works and I have had some past customers come back to me with that same observation, I like Scott and Randy’s straight line with the paper hole reinforcements method (been using it myself) and a couple of things I didn’t add to the 3rd eye video that I would now, would be to start close to the object ball with the cue ball but far from the pocket with the object ball and gradually move the object ball towards the pocket keeping the cue ball where it started, quite the eyes and soften the backhand.
 
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