Fundamentals - Minimizing your Errors

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skateboardkid

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Just wanted to start a discussion on Fundamentals.

I've been watching Snooker more and more lately because I really appreciate the perfectly straight strokes they have in that game.

I've adopted a snooker stance in my pool game, and I feel like it keeps me from moving on the shots. A video that illustrates basically how I stand and address the cue ball when shooting is this video:

http://youtu.be/iP4RvZJMPd8

The main question I have in regards to the difference between proper snooker and proper pool technique is this - how far above the cue should your chin be?

For a while now, I've been cueing with my chin on the cue - a slight elbow drop in the final stroke keeps the cue away from your chin as you follow through.

Yesterday, I was trying to cue with my chin a few inches above the cue, and it was remarkable how much easier it was to power the ball - especially power draw and follow shots.

My only concern is that a flat snooker stance is more indicative of cueing with the chin on the cue, and the more sideways stance is better for cueing with your chin slightly above the cue.

Any thoughts?

Also, how do you spell "cueing"? lol
 
Keep doing what you do when you play pool too and only stay a hand width over the cue with your cue on power shots and the break!
 
There is no "correct" height for having your head over the cuestick. Some people see the shot better standing higher (10-12") over the cue...some see it better with their chin on the cue, or slightly off. It's a matter of personal preference, rather than 'proper' technique. It certainly doesn't matter in terms of playing effectively.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
There is no "correct" height for having your head over the cuestick.
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Why do you see 100% of Snooker players (a game requiring a perfect stroke to make shots, and very tough longer potting) with their chin glued to the cue? This leads me to believe for pure potting purposes, that chin on the cue would be the recommended technique.

Most top pool players today - Orcollo, SVB, Immonen, Appleton, Feijen - use a very low if not chin touching stance. However there are players like Warren Kiamco that are still relatively upright.

I wonder if this is due to the fact that the cloth is much faster than the players of the past that perhaps had to use power shots more often - Buddy Hall, Steve Mizerak, Etc.

I'm not saying any one technique is the "Only way to play" but, I look around at the top players in both Snooker and Pool, and I a wide majority of them using a chin on cue stance. I can only think that this would be the recommended way to play for an up and coming player.
 
skateboardkid...How high one stands over the cue is based on one's vision center over the shot line. Some see the shot line better higher up...I'm one. Others see it better lower down. Some move up or down, depending on the shot. I'm not here to argue with you, but playing with your chin on the cue is a choice, rather than a necessity. Same thing with elbow drop...it's a choice.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
SK,
I'm a big believer in low is good. Just don't do what I see some people do when trying to play. What I call riding the wave. They have a pump action stroke and ride the cue up and down. The other bad habit are those who don't get low enough and thus bring their back hand up so the touch their chin. Thus playing jacked up and don't realize it. Now all spin shots have an aggravated masse effect. Both very bad.

Head down and stable with good level and repeatable stoke will always give the best results.

Nick
 
Cueing...nailed it!

Every snooker player you see will have the cue on their chin for one reason; every one of them received instruction from an early age and this is how every snooker instructor will teach a child to play.

You get the best view of the cue ball by having the eyes at the cue balls level, so getting the head as low as possible makes sense.

As Scott says, he plays with a higher head position because of his vision centre. I've never heard of vision centre in the vertical sense (hope that makes sense, I mean vertical as in head height). I've always heard it referred to horizontally, as in having the head on different positions along a horizontal plane across the cue. But, Scott is rarely wrong, if ever actually about this kind of thing. I know for me personally, if I have my chin off the cue, say 6 inches I can't pick out centre cue ball. I hit centre, but either too high or too low...that is what vision centre is all about, right? Hitting where it looks like you are lined up to hit.

On to why pool players don't play this way....

Few reasons, one is they are mostly self taught. Its far more comfortable to play with the chin off the cue when learning the game. So it just kind of sticks with them. Another reason is the bridges used. Closed bridges cut off a lot of the cue ball in your view when very low down. The higher the head the more of the ball you see. Another is the strokes used. Lots of pump type strokes in pool. The cue moves up and down for a lot of players when feathering the cue ball. If the chin is on the cue and this happens, the head moves up and down and this would be disastrous.

End of the day its not extremely important to have the chin on the cue, but for me, I can't play any other way. You can still play power shots with the chin on the cue, and also without a significant elbow drop...look up Judd Trump. If you ever want to base your fundamentals on a single snooker player, use Judd.
 
imitation

Scott Lee said:
skateboardkid...How high one stands over the cue is based on one's vision center over the shot line. Some see the shot line better higher up...I'm one. Others see it better lower down. Some move up or down, depending on the shot. I'm not here to argue with you, but playing with your chin on the cue is a choice, rather than a necessity. Same thing with elbow drop...it's a choice.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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We also adopt styles by unconsciously imitating others. Humans are the ultimate mimic in the animal world...it has a lot to do with our lengthy dependency on parents.

So if you grow up watching snooker players you will likely adopt a snooker stance and a low chin without thinking much about it.

This is important to understand because it's also how we can pick up bad habits...
 
With the snooker play field being 6x12 it seems to make sense to be ''all the way down'' to see your target. With the larger cut pocket sizes, the shorter table length here in the states during the Minnesota Fats days an upright shooter was effective, but generally most players want to see the target, like marksman would much rather be sighted along the line of the barrel than shooting from the hip.
 
Scott Lee said:
I'm not here to argue with you, but playing with your chin on the cue is a choice, rather than a necessity. Same thing with elbow drop...it's a choice.
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I definitely am not here to argue - just discuss and hear some feedback - your thoughts are actually more interesting to me because they differ from my own experience, making them very constructive for my own theories. I started recently playing with a slight elevation over the cue - about 6", and I've seen some improvements especially on power shots because of this. I actually agree with you in a sense - being that there are probably huge disadvantages to shooting TOO high off the cue, but there is a happy middle area between chin on cue and too high that someone can shoot very effectively at.

I'm thinking that if you have your chin on the cue, an elbow drop is probably not recommended - you don't see many snooker players dropping their elbow (although there is a huge exception with O'Sullivan).

Check this video out - http://youtu.be/59amcNEN0Tg it shows Masse draw the ball more than you'd ever need to in a real game, but he has that upright stance causing him to be able to power the ball more effectively than having his chin on the cue.

Island Drive said:
but generally most players want to see the target, like marksman would much rather be sighted along the line of the barrel than shooting from the hip.
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This makes a lot of sense to me from a pure potting perspective, but like I stated above, wouldn't a little more head room over the cue provide more power when using extreme draw/follow/english shots?
 
skateboardkid said:
This makes a lot of sense to me from a pure potting perspective, but like I stated above, wouldn't a little more head room over the cue provide more power when using extreme draw/follow/english shots?
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That makes sense because when you ''hit thru'' an extreme draw shot for example, the shoulder drops and the parallel line of cue movement becomes more piston like. Mika is a good example of this pump type swing with the shoulder movement. There's allot of difference of equipment used between the different games, each discipline has made that very apparent thru time. I'm sure 3 cushion too has allot of differences.
 
skateboardkid said:
I definitely am not here to argue - just discuss and hear some feedback - your thoughts are actually more interesting to me because they differ from my own experience, making them very constructive for my own theories. I started recently playing with a slight elevation over the cue - about 6", and I've seen some improvements especially on power shots because of this. I actually agree with you in a sense - being that there are probably huge disadvantages to shooting TOO high off the cue, but there is a happy middle area between chin on cue and too high that someone can shoot very effectively at.

I'm thinking that if you have your chin on the cue, an elbow drop is probably not recommended - you don't see many snooker players dropping their elbow (although there is a huge exception with O'Sullivan).

Check this video out - http://youtu.be/59amcNEN0Tg it shows Masse draw the ball more than you'd ever need to in a real game, but he has that upright stance causing him to be able to power the ball more effectively than having his chin on the cue.



This makes a lot of sense to me from a pure potting perspective, but like I stated above, wouldn't a little more head room over the cue provide more power when using extreme draw/follow/english shots?
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The video you linked is showing the exaggerated elbow drop needed for power shots.

I have always believed that the shot in that video is accomplished not only by the elbow drop but because the cue is closer to Mikes center of gravity. Not only that but Mike has a larger than average lever (ie, arm) and it allows him to increase the power of a shot over those of us with shorter levers.

The height of your head changes the angle you view the shot from and changing your angle of sight is an important tool when giving someone lessons imo. Too many people have their head at the wrong height from the cue depending on their body type.

Because of this I agree with Scott. There are advantages and disadvantages to every stroke fundamental which is why a stroke is so individual in nature.

Different physiology requires different body mechanics to deliver a straight stroke.

It should also be noted that for an elbow drop to work the shoulder and elbow have to drop AFTER contact or at the moment of contact otherwise it will bring the shot out of line. I would never recommend someone of beginner or even intermediate skill level try and incorporate an elbow drop into their game because the time that has to be devoted to developing the correct timing on all shots and if not done correctly it can create flaws elsewhere in the stroke delivery.
 
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Spimp13 said:
Thanks Dave, I will be spending some extensive time examining my stance here probably next week and will look at this. I am curious on if it will improve my game at all other than minimizing fatigue from bending both legs to which I currently do.
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I generally think that at least one straight leg is better for stability purposes - it is much harder to "get up" or have any accidental movement if you have a straight back leg vs both legs bent slightly. Edit: I'm 6'3" and I have a friend who is 6'4" and we both have a straight back leg - it does require some flexibility (ie, you should be able to touch your toes with a straight leg to do this) but it's very very solid.

That said, you're going to be hard pressed to find a pool player (even professionals) that don't move their head slightly on some shots. Unlike Snooker players who stay still no matter the shot - but then, they have to because their margin of error is so much less.

That's why you see pool players missing so much when they get on a tight pocket table.

I love this video:
http://youtu.be/A_oxjmiv2jk

Notice how Kid Delicious says "I cannot stress the importance of staying down" like a billion times, and if you watch him when he shoots, he has a slight head movement on almost every shot! LOL how is that for irony.
 
skateboardkid said:
I generally think that at least one straight leg is better for stability purposes - it is much harder to "get up" or have any accidental movement if you have a straight back leg vs both legs bent slightly. Edit: I'm 6'3" and I have a friend who is 6'4" and we both have a straight back leg - it does require some flexibility (ie, you should be able to touch your toes with a straight leg to do this) but it's very very solid.

That said, you're going to be hard pressed to find a pool player (even professionals) that don't move their head slightly on some shots. Unlike Snooker players who stay still no matter the shot - but then, they have to because their margin of error is so much less.

That's why you see pool players missing so much when they get on a tight pocket table.

I love this video:
http://youtu.be/A_oxjmiv2jk

Notice how Kid Delicious says "I cannot stress the importance of staying down" like a billion times, and if you watch him when he shoots, he has a slight head movement on almost every shot! LOL how is that for irony.
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I'm 5'7" and bend both legs. I messed with bending only the front leg and making the back leg stiff but it was uncomfortable and I almost felt it was causing my aim to be off...it was weird since I know that is the norm. I may just have to really try 10-20 different stances to figure out a more solid one. On a sort of funny note I play as an APA 7 in 8 ball with a shtty stance...just goes to show there are other aspects of pool that can help overcome a fundamental block...but it is still one that should be addressed. Fortunately I am only 35 years old so plenty of time right :grin:
 
Based on my own experimentation with head height above the cue, I have found that the best position for me is usually a few inches above the cue. This is partly due to comfort since I'm 6'3", but it also seems to be a good compromise between being able to see the shot line and the intended tip contact point on the cue ball. I also found that I have more success on making shots at tougher angles, such as back cuts, if I stand up a bit more so I can see the angle better. For more accurate tip placement, I set up lower. I usually get closer to the cue if I'm shooting a long straight-in shot or a shot where I have a good reference point, such as a half-ball shot. As long as I keep my head on the same vertical axis, I can still maintain my horizontal vision center when making these adjustments.
 
It`s important to remember that a snooker table is higher than a pool table, so to adopt a snooker type stance with the chin resting on the cue will require you to bend further down, than you would on a snooker table.
When you look at someone like Mika Immonen, who used to play alot of snooker. You will se he is low, but his chin is not touching the cue.
Mika Immonen is roughly my height (he is 1.77, I`m 1.81cm) we have pretty similar body type, stroke, bridge and stance, so I look at videos of Mika playing and try to mimic his play.

Here is a recent Mika Immonen vs Tony Robles video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15YPcVNgLvw
 
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A persons height has no bearing on how far they will be able to get down on a shot, nor does table height. I'm over 6 feet tall and manage just fine. I have seen many 6'5+ people play with a locked leg and chin planted on the cue playing English pool, which some of these types of tables can be just as low maybe a tad lower than pool tables.

All it requires is a wider foot placement. My feet are roughly 1ft wider when I play pool compared to snooker.
 
Pidge said:
A persons height has no bearing on how far they will be able to get down on a shot, nor does table height. I'm over 6 feet tall and manage just fine. I have seen many 6'5+ people play with a locked leg and chin planted on the cue playing English pool, which some of these types of tables can be just as low maybe a tad lower than pool tables.

All it requires is a wider foot placement. My feet are roughly 1ft wider when I play pool compared to snooker.
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I wonder if belly has a bearing? Maybe that's why Buddy and Miz had their stance.
 
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