fundamentel tchnique advice needed

Solartje

Solartje

the Brunswick BUG bit me
Silver Member
I was wondering if other players have experienced the same thing and how they corrected this.


Ok, i hope my explanation of the problem will be clear.

When I lay my cue in the correct line of the shot parallel to the table, when i move my body downwards over the cue as vertical as possible, for the first part of the move my backhand/cue/shoulder/elbow remains in line, but at the end of the move at the last inches of the downwards movement (when i move my body and head very low so that my chin almost hits the shaft my backhand elbow naturally moves outwards. like if mechanically my elbow can not get any higher so it moves sideways. I can force my arm consciously to not move, and i am straight, but as soon as i start doing my warming up strokes my elbow naturally moves back outwards.

I have several work-arounds that I use now, but i know this is not how i should correct it. (like for example:
- I aim 2 tips of side, so that when my backhand moves sideways i hit center ball or
- I move my elbow inwards after my chin hits the shaft to correct the outwards movement
- start with my stroke hand already close to my armpits before i move down on the shot..
etc etc etc over the years i have found my "one trick solutions" but this is not the way to go , so I'm looking for a more consistent solutions




I have long legs and i'm 6feet+ guy, so this is mainly a problem when i play pool, less when i play on higher snooker tables. I can't seem to lay the cue straight and get down straight without changing the line of shot.

I have checked other big players and there backhand and elbow remains exactly at the same place from beginning till end and i have no idea how they do it. do i need to stretch some muscles or something so i can do this?


ps when i play on my knees (yes i test stupid ideas) i don't need to get my body down because i'm already super low on the shot , and i don't have this problem and i shoot dead straight, but that would be a stupid sight to play on your knees...


hopefully i'm not the first guy to have this problem and someone can point me in the right way to a permanent solution instead of temporary fixes
 
Solartje said:
I was wondering if other players have experienced the same thing and how they corrected this.


Ok, i hope my explanation of the problem will be clear.

When I lay my cue in the correct line of the shot parallel to the table, when i move my body downwards over the cue as vertical as possible, for the first part of the move my backhand/cue/shoulder/elbow remains in line, but at the end of the move at the last inches of the downwards movement (when i move my body and head very low so that my chin almost hits the shaft my backhand elbow naturally moves outwards. like if mechanically my elbow can not get any higher so it moves sideways. I can force my arm consciously to not move, and i am straight, but as soon as i start doing my warming up strokes my elbow naturally moves back outwards.

I have several work-arounds that I use now, but i know this is not how i should correct it. (like for example:
- I aim 2 tips of side, so that when my backhand moves sideways i hit center ball or
- I move my elbow inwards after my chin hits the shaft to correct the outwards movement
- start with my stroke hand already close to my armpits before i move down on the shot..
etc etc etc over the years i have found my "one trick solutions" but this is not the way to go , so I'm looking for a more consistent solutions




I have long legs and i'm 6feet+ guy, so this is mainly a problem when i play pool, less when i play on higher snooker tables. I can't seem to lay the cue straight and get down straight without changing the line of shot.

I have checked other big players and there backhand and elbow remains exactly at the same place from beginning till end and i have no idea how they do it. do i need to stretch some muscles or something so i can do this?


ps when i play on my knees (yes i test stupid ideas) i don't need to get my body down because i'm already super low on the shot , and i don't have this problem and i shoot dead straight, but that would be a stupid sight to play on your knees...


hopefully i'm not the first guy to have this problem and someone can point me in the right way to a permanent solution instead of temporary fixes
Click to expand...

Grab a medicine bottle or something similar and hold itbetween your arm and lat/arm and armpit. don't hold it tight just get used to it. Do this while down in your stance and hold it for a while.

You may also suffer from exaggerated warm up strokes (I have the same problem sometimes. Watch pro golfers that have a waggle.
 
Could be your foot placement. Easy way to check it- without a cb or a line to fall onto, just get down into your stance and stroke the air. Does your cue go straight and is your arm in the correct place? If so, then your body can easily do what you want it to do. But, your initial stance to approach the line of the shot is a little off.

If you can cue straight without an actual line, then that becomes your line. Have someone place a cb at your tip while down, and slowly stand back up. Notice your foot positions and angle of your body. This is what you want to duplicate when approaching the shot.
 
cool, i'll try both things and see if i can identify the problem more specifically.



ps drop the rock: can you explain better what u mean with "lat/arm" ?
just hold it under your armpit like a thermometer?
 
Mechanics

Hmmm... sounds like you're not moving your whole arm up when you get low over the shot... instead you're moving your elbow out and your upper arm and shoulder stay the same... need to get that elbow straight up. Do you have full range of motion with your shoulder straight back?... some guys can't raise their shoulder straight back.

Not a good idea to compensate aim (2 tips??) for that, IMHO. Check out some video of
Kim Davenport... he's about 6', and that shoulder-elbow-wrist alignment is super straight... he stays down on his shots really well, too.

The old mirror trick sometimes helps... get a full length mirror and get down like you're shooting and check your alignment... or have someone video you... you'd be surprised
how visually seeing what's going on makes an impression.

My2cents
 
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Solartje said:
I was wondering if other players have experienced the same thing and how they corrected this.


Ok, i hope my explanation of the problem will be clear.

When I lay my cue in the correct line of the shot parallel to the table, when i move my body downwards over the cue as vertical as possible, for the first part of the move my backhand/cue/shoulder/elbow remains in line, but at the end of the move at the last inches of the downwards movement (when i move my body and head very low so that my chin almost hits the shaft my backhand elbow naturally moves outwards. like if mechanically my elbow can not get any higher so it moves sideways. I can force my arm consciously to not move, and i am straight, but as soon as i start doing my warming up strokes my elbow naturally moves back outwards.

I have several work-arounds that I use now, but i know this is not how i should correct it. (like for example:
- I aim 2 tips of side, so that when my backhand moves sideways i hit center ball or
- I move my elbow inwards after my chin hits the shaft to correct the outwards movement
- start with my stroke hand already close to my armpits before i move down on the shot..
etc etc etc over the years i have found my "one trick solutions" but this is not the way to go , so I'm looking for a more consistent solutions




I have long legs and i'm 6feet+ guy, so this is mainly a problem when i play pool, less when i play on higher snooker tables. I can't seem to lay the cue straight and get down straight without changing the line of shot.

I have checked other big players and there backhand and elbow remains exactly at the same place from beginning till end and i have no idea how they do it. do i need to stretch some muscles or something so i can do this?


ps when i play on my knees (yes i test stupid ideas) i don't need to get my body down because i'm already super low on the shot , and i don't have this problem and i shoot dead straight, but that would be a stupid sight to play on your knees...


hopefully i'm not the first guy to have this problem and someone can point me in the right way to a permanent solution instead of temporary fixes
Click to expand...

Sounds like we're about the same size. I was playing with a stance where my hips were turned too far right and that forced my cue to travel outside the straight plane on part of the stroke. The lower body position can interfere with your swing. By squaring up my hips, the cue now travels more freely. I am pretty sure that you can correct your issues with a change in lower body position.

For me, this offline stroke movement still occasionally comes into play on shots hit with a lot of force, especially break shots. I now practice high velocity shots and have learned how to better stay in alignment that way.
 
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Runner said:
Hmmm... sounds like you're not moving your whole arm up when you get low over the shot... instead you're moving your elbow out and your upper arm and shoulder stay
the same... need to get that elbow straight up. Do you have full range of motion with your shoulder straight back?... some guys can't raise their shoulder straight back.
Click to expand...

yup. its moving up in the beginning but last couple of inches it goes outwards.
it doesn't feel natural/loose if it goes all up but i guess i'll have to get used to it. i think i have full motion.


The mirror trick i have used. i have one on my wall on the short rail. it helps me visualize the problem but as soon as i close my eyes it goes off after a couple of strokes. Could be that the problem is more then singular aka bad angle/hips + not moving my shoulder high enough.

When i watch players like svb, reyes, they seem to me to not have there elbow and cue all up as high as possible. it's more like "hanging in line..." but still they are dead straight. players like niels does have his cue almost under his armpit with his elbow very high but I don't feel "lose" when i try to force that. probably i'm doing something wrong. Naturally i love to have my arm away from my body (opposit of the bottle under armpit trick) and hanging and enough room for big strokes, rather then all square and up and tight, with short strokes more like a snooker player.

Guess there are 2 options in the chosen stance, and i clearly prefere a "pool" stance when playing pool, but i can't bend down straight without losing the "looser" pool stance.

no idea if my words make sense? :'( i'm not native english speaking. its hard to put in words something mechanical.
 
Runner said:
Not a good idea to compensate aim (2 tips??) for that, IMHO. Check out some video of
Kim Davenport... he's about 6', and that shoulder-elbow-wrist alignment is super straight... he stays down on his shots really well, too.
Click to expand...

I don't agree...Kim Davenport has always had a pronounced right-to-left movement of his tip. You can see it during his PSR when he's taking his measuring strokes. See 1:21:55 on this match with Buddy Hall...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B5u-fHDUXY
and 1:15:05 in this game against Efren...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOlYpAYpiAU
Throughout the video against Buddy and earlier with Jeff Carter, even on the overhead you can see the right to left movement of his tip (especially if you focus on the middle part of his stick). Not sure if it's related to clearing his hips or not, since he appears to have plenty of room. Whatever the case, he always manages to hit the CB exactly where he wants, and when he does miss, it's always because he tried to swipe the CB and miss-hits. You are correct, his upper arm is rock solid, maybe it's his wrist?
 
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6'3" here.

We have knees, use them. I bend my knees to lower my body, takes stress off of the lower back, allows me to easily adjust for different height tables.

Taught to me by a nationally known instructor: Aim the cue while standing behind it, place the tip on the table and step in with your left leg (if right handed). As you do this, crouch a bit and you will be in a great, repeatable position.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
6'3" here.

We have knees, use them. I bend my knees to lower my body, takes stress off of the lower back, allows me to easily adjust for different height tables.

Taught to me by a nationally known instructor: Aim the cue while standing behind it, place the tip on the table and step in with your left leg (if right handed). As you do this, crouch a bit and you will be in a great, repeatable position.
Click to expand...

Great tip. Same here...the knees will save your lower back as you get older, too. ;) I stand over the shot, with my right hand locked into my hip, the stick up in the air, aligned on the shot/stick line. Then I step into the shot and everything's lined up for me from there.
 
West Point 1987 said:
Great tip. Same here...the knees will save your lower back as you get older, too. ;) I stand over the shot, with my right hand locked into my hip, the stick up in the air, aligned on the shot/stick line. Then I step into the shot and everything's lined up for me from there.
Click to expand...

Bent knees are also more stable than locked or nearly straight...ask anyone who plays line in the nfl.
 
Solartje said:
yup. its moving up in the beginning but last couple of inches it goes outwards.
it doesn't feel natural/loose if it goes all up but i guess i'll have to get used to it. i think i have full motion.


The mirror trick i have used. i have one on my wall on the short rail. it helps me visualize the problem but as soon as i close my eyes it goes off after a couple of strokes. Could be that the problem is more then singular aka bad angle/hips + not moving my shoulder high enough.

When i watch players like svb, reyes, they seem to me to not have there elbow and cue all up as high as possible. it's more like "hanging in line..." but still they are dead straight. players like niels does have his cue almost under his armpit with his elbow very high but I don't feel "lose" when i try to force that. probably i'm doing something wrong. Naturally i love to have my arm away from my body (opposit of the bottle under armpit trick) and hanging and enough room for big strokes, rather then all square and up and tight, with short strokes more like a snooker player.

Guess there are 2 options in the chosen stance, and i clearly prefere a "pool" stance when playing pool, but i can't bend down straight without losing the "looser" pool stance.

no idea if my words make sense? :'( i'm not native english speaking. its hard to put in words something mechanical.
Click to expand...


between your bicep and side. There should be a gap between there when you are down on a shot. You can use that method to close it or change the angle of your elbow
 
Drop The Rock said:
Grab a medicine bottle or something similar and hold itbetween your arm and lat/arm and armpit. don't hold it tight just get used to it. Do this while down in your stance and hold it for a while.

You may also suffer from exaggerated warm up strokes (I have the same problem sometimes. Watch pro golfers that have a waggle.
Click to expand...

This is what a great coach had me do in bowling when my right arm started popping out. I just used a rolled up towel. It did work wonders.
 
I am a BCA instructor and an old time road player and teach privately in CT. The problem your having is hard to correct because you want to be so low in your stance. Shoulder , arm and hand should be in the same plane, working together. When bending so low when you about a foot above the shaft your right shoulder now sticks out and your hand moves closer to your body, bringing everything out of line. As Tate suggested go more into a snooker stance, meaning facing the target more and instead of bending lower, try squatting the last few inches. Hope this helps, N.Y.Larry
 
Mechanical

West Point... yeah have to agree Kimmer's pre-shot has a little 'waffle', but not a lot..
I have the matches you've referred to... when he does miss, it's usually a tough shot,
or he jumped up or swipes the CB. Still, that back arm is aligned pretty dead straight.
Check out his match in Reno ('98?) where he beat Earl... good stuff.

I'm using Kim as an example of a bigger guy, for the OP, to check out for aligning his back arm... especially that elbow moving outward.

My 2.5 cents
 
I don't know if this is anything like your problem. I am 6'2", with long arms. I have experienced a long standing issue of having my arm too close to my body so that my hand is actually under my chest. I looked at other people, and realized that a big part of my problem is that I had my shoulders too parallel to the table.

See if maybe this is an issue for you too. All the "textbook" stances and strokes I see involve (for right handed players) having the left shoulder low and the right shoulder high. This does all sorts of good things. One is that it allows you to not have to have your elbow so high when you get low on the cue. A high elbow robs your stroke of power and, for lack of a better term, "ease". With a low left shoulder and a high right shoulder, you can pretty much have your elbow at the same height as your shoulder, maybe only a little higher. For me, this makes my stroke not only ridiculously straight, but also crazy stong and effortless.

Give it a shot, so to speak, if you think this might be it.

KMRUNOUT
 
The Mechanic

IDK, all the tall (6'2" plus) players I've seen who have good form don't bend their knees and squat to get low on a shot... they use a longer cue, like 60", and stand a little further
away, so their stance is relaxed, not squatting under tension. My2.3cents.
 
Runner said:
IDK, all the tall (6'2" plus) players I've seen who have good form don't bend their knees and squat to get low on a shot... they use a longer cue, like 60", and stand a little further
away, so their stance is relaxed, not squatting under tension. My2.3cents.
Click to expand...

Nobody is saying that one should squat, we aren't in a stance with our butts below our knees.

A stance with knees bent is not an uncomfortable or tiring stance.

As for standing further away from the shot...that is asinine, I use my height to get closer to the shot.
 
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