Gamblers are Strange People

[justadub]

APA has definitely "dumbed" down the game. It's the worst league in pool. From what I hear before it's existence pool was a lot better. Yes they bring in lots of bangers and make a fortune off of them and don't put a dime
Back into the game. If that's good for pool I guess smog is good for the air.

Don't put a dime back into the game?

Many, many rooms are far busier because of APA. No, they aren't the gamblers you are looking for, but they are paying table time, and eating and drinking at these establishments. That's putting money back into the game.

APA players buy cues, cases, gloves, chalk and every gadget under the sun. That's putting money back into the game.

You are probably inferring that the APA itself isn't putting anything back into the game, but I would counter that by remaining viable and successful, they are creating still more players that are generating revenue in the pool related businesses in this country.

What does gambling put back into the game?

 

[briankenobi]

Don't put a dime back into the game?

Many, many rooms are far busier because of APA. No, they aren't the gamblers you are looking for, but they are paying table time, and eating and drinking at these establishments. That's putting money back into the game.

APA players buy cues, cases, gloves, chalk and every gadget under the sun. That's putting money back into the game.

You are probably inferring that the APA itself isn't putting anything back into the game, but I would counter that by remaining viable and successful, they are creating still more players that are generating revenue in the pool related businesses in this country.

What does gambling put back into the game?

Some sense there. Good post.

 

[leto1776]

Don't put a dime back into the game?

Many, many rooms are far busier because of APA. No, they aren't the gamblers you are looking for, but they are paying table time, and eating and drinking at these establishments. That's putting money back into the game.

APA players buy cues, cases, gloves, chalk and every gadget under the sun. That's putting money back into the game.

You are probably inferring that the APA itself isn't putting anything back into the game, but I would counter that by remaining viable and successful, they are creating still more players that are generating revenue in the pool related businesses in this country.

What does gambling put back into the game?

Tried giving you rep, but it says I have to spread it around more

 

[The Saw]

People on here will blow $K's on cues, but take a look at how they match up. There's *****ing and moaning, haggling, all kinds of stuff and many times nothing happens.

Here's my quick run-down.. started as an average bar player in APA. My captain loved to get me in $1 or $2 games. Eventually, I started catching up. He didn't play that game when the tables turned. I'm not far into a local A level. I'll play some of the good local masters and drop a little money, but if they feel like they're on the short end of the stick, they tend to pull up early. I'm starting to get a bit burnt on that feeling - they want to rob me, but heaven forbid they risk losing a few bucks. Can't wait til I hit master and see the nits come out of the woodwork(or go hide back in the woodwork). On one night, I hang out with my friends, maybe give a spot to play for a few bucks and treat it like an exercise, then on another night I'm the weakest player on a team of people that have spent a lot of time playing for money.

Being a nit has nothing to do with being in a league. APA probably gives people a better idea of the pecking order, but not much else in terms of gambling. These are people that want to go out, have a couple of drinks and hang out with their buddies playing pool. Not a problem, they're contributing to the game. Maybe the problem is that outside of league, there aren't a lot of players left that want to gamble. League shouldn't shoulder that blame.

How about another one.. last Spring at our regional BCA, I played a good master getting the 8. I won. A newer regional grandmaster asked if I wanted to play after. I figure what the heck, I'd fire off some of what I just won. He refused to play banks, refused to give up any kind of a spot other than what I had previously gotten from the master. He ran 5 of the 7 racks, I think, and I didn't get a game. League players are nits? Bah. I think it's closer to the old saying, that there's no honor among thieves.

A league handicap means ZERO to me. There is way more sandbagging and deception with pool leagues than in gambling circles, especially the APA... We have 7's around here that are 7's simply because they go to league and go balls out trying to win and several of the sandbagging teams will put up specific people to lose against them to get their handicaps right, whipping boys if you will.... Plus, there is so much subjectivity in handicaps from one region to another due to some operators being too loose, or excessively tight, with handicaps. Gambling? I can watch someone hit balls for a few minutes and know what the dead even game is, no way I'm basing weight off of a league handicap.

 

[krupa]

I guess some room owners think leagues help the bottom line. I'm not so sure. When the league comes into a room, and pays reduced rates, most of the non-league players leave.

We could put each other to sleep with personal experiences but... most of my league matches are played in a sports bar with 3 barboxes. The APA nights, all three tables are busy, everyone's eating a drinking, etc. The times between sessions? Those same nights the place is dead.

Leagues are good for billiards equipment manufacturers. But how much are billiards equipment manufacturers giving back to pool?

Well, they're not dropping their billiards divisions to make golf clubs and bowling balls so that's something.

If the league players don't have enough interest in pool to continue playing if there was no league- how much does that benefit the game of pool, long term?

Where are leagues going? With poolrooms closing and the pro scene in disarray, it looks like leagues are the future.

 

[foxcues]

What most people don`t seem to realize is pool and gambling have been associated for decades.Pool got a bad name years ago and its never going to change.
No matter what pool will always be a gambling game just like poker. Do you think the world poker tour would have the following and tv exposure if the weren`t playing for money,no one would watch if they were playing for fun,
Pool needs to embrace the gambling aspect of it and use that in it`s favor just as poker did.
If you don`t want to gamble that's fine but don`t knock the ones that do and vise versa.
If you have never gambled or been around it a lot there are things you wouldn`t understand(like why they want to play on a certain table)
Every table plays a little different because of dead rails,tight pockets slow/faster cloth etc. so when someone ask you give up the table look at it from there point your just banging balls for fun which you can do on another table but they are trying to make money not playing for fun and yes I have given up my table many times for action and always will,even if im playing for $100 and they are playing for $500. Bigger money deserves the table.
Someone said that people will remember who won the us open last year but not who won $20,000 last week,well if you are not a gambler then this is probably true but if you are a gambler its the other way around because you want to find the guy that just won $20,000 and try to get some of it for yourself.

 

[The Saw]

You are probably inferring that the APA itself isn't putting anything back into the game, but I would counter that by remaining viable and successful, they are creating still more players that are generating revenue in the pool related businesses in this country.

What does gambling put back into the game?

I ran one of the largest, if not the largest, rooms in a 5 state area for over 6 years. Leagues do add value to a business as they are guaranteed business every week but most of those players are there just one night a week for 2-3 hours. The gambling/action players are there every, or most, days 3-8 hours a day and in the long run spend more money mainly due to table time. Every room needs both to survive and thrive. The league crowd is much more casual and the action crowd is more dedicated. We did over a million a year in sales and there is no way we could have done that without EITHER crowd.

 

[Banks]

A league handicap means ZERO to me. There is way more sandbagging and deception with pool leagues than in gambling circles, especially the APA... We have 7's around here that are 7's simply because they go to league and go balls out trying to win and several of the sandbagging teams will put up specific people to lose against them to get their handicaps right, whipping boys if you will.... Plus, there is so much subjectivity in handicaps from one region to another due to some operators being too loose, or excessively tight, with handicaps. Gambling? I can watch someone hit balls for a few minutes and know what the dead even game is, no way I'm basing weight off of a league handicap.

Meh, unless it's a very, very small area, 7's should be getting there from having some matches there are near mistake-free. Of course, having the 8b rating so loose means that there will be weak 7's and then shortstop 7's. They should still know their place if they've played other 7's in their area. Around here, I'd probably be a mid-ranked 7 and I'd still spot any 6 an extra game. I may lose sometimes, but I should still be up at the end. In 9, I'd be willing to give any 8 or lower an extra level spot. Once the player is maxed, that's when you really need to know how the person plays. Most players under max rating usually have a hard enough time winning games that they want/need to, I don't think most people can sandbag as well as they think/say.

Gambling, I can half-ass it against some players and play to their style(gofers, etc) and tighten up my game if I fall behind, while if it's a close match-up, then I'll have to do what I can to win.

 

[foxcues]

This is horse****. If they want the table so much then they can buy me out of it. If I rented the table it was for myself, not someone else. If the room wants to reserve tables for money games then they should not rent them to anyone else. If the room demanded that I change tables I would tell them to call the police. I also would never play there again. Let it go out of business.

I get the feeling they wouldn`t miss you

 

[itsfroze]

What most people don`t seem to realize is pool and gambling have been associated for decades.Pool got a bad name years ago and its never going to change.
No matter what pool will always be a gambling game just like poker. Do you think the world poker tour would have the following and tv exposure if the weren`t playing for money,no one would watch if they were playing for fun,
Pool needs to embrace the gambling aspect of it and use that in it`s favor just as poker did.
If you don`t want to gamble that's fine but don`t knock the ones that do and vise versa.
If you have never gambled or been around it a lot there are things you wouldn`t understand(like why they want to play on a certain table)
Every table plays a little different because of dead rails,tight pockets slow/faster cloth etc. so when someone ask you give up the table look at it from there point your just banging balls for fun which you can do on another table but they are trying to make money not playing for fun and yes I have given up my table many times for action and always will,even if im playing for $100 and they are playing for $500. Bigger money deserves the table.
Someone said that people will remember who won the us open last year but not who won $20,000 last week,well if you are not a gambler then this is probably true but if you are a gambler its the other way around because you want to find the guy that just won $20,000 and try to get some of it for yourself.

----------------
I agree with this!

 

[justadub]

I ran one of the largest, if not the largest, rooms in a 5 state area for over 6 years. Leagues do add value to a business as they are guaranteed business every week but most of those players are there just one night a week for 2-3 hours. The gambling/action players are there every, or most, days 3-8 hours a day and in the long run spend more money mainly due to table time. Every room needs both to survive and thrive. The league crowd is much more casual and the action crowd is more dedicated. We did over a million a year in sales and there is no way we could have done that without EITHER crowd.

I agree. A combination of both is ideal.

Just for the sake of the argument, what generated more profit for you in the same 2-3 hours, leagues or table time? I'm assuming you had alcohol at least, if not food as well.

Around here, there just isn't that gambling crowd, so on the non league night's, it can be quiet. Weekends better, of course, but casual night out folks, couples and groups and such. No serious rooms, I suppose, but plenty of 9-foot tables.

Cool having a reasonable discussion in the midst of this.

 

[leto1776]

I agree with you, here. In the future there will be leagues in bars on bar boxes and more serious pool players who will have to get their own full size table at home.

I can't speak for other areas, but in my local area, the leagues are almost all based out of social clubs ("bars"), and the majority of them have 8 or 9 ft tables. The serious players here all play in leagues, also.

 

[stljohnny]

I both gamble and play leagues. My biggest complaint about the gambling world is when someone says "wanna play some" and I say "sure" then the proceed to say "I'll take the wild 7 and breaks"
HUH!!!!! You asked me to play!
My response when asked "what am I giving" I usually respond with "a hard time"

THIS! I don't often gamble, but when I do it's always friendly - but always with other league players (either APA or in-house leagues or at least someone who knows the handicaps), so their first question is always "You're a {insert skill level}, I'm a {insert skill level} - how about {some ridiculous amount of weight}?"

Best example: A guy I play with who has a table at home and has really improved in recent months asks me to play all the time. I'm an SL7, he's an SL6. We started out with me giving him just 1 on the wire, I lost both sets. Then I go to his house and we play even, I lost again. Fast foward 2 months till this past weekend: "Hey, you wanna come over this week, play some 10-ball? Maybe give me 2 or 3 on the wire?".

I laughed such a "are you @#$%^ kidding me" laugh, he literally collapsed on the floor.

Edited to add: I'm not against gambling, I actually like the challenge of it. (but, bills have to come first, so I don't get a lot of expendable cash to match up, unfortunately) What I hate, as has been previously stated, are the people who won't even raise their hand without some kind of big spot. I would rather play everyone even, win some, lose some - unless it's just so far out of line that a spot is warranted. There are some players who I know I can't play even, and as much as I'd want to play them even, that day isn't right now. So, I'd probably ask for a game on the wire, which isn't really enough to even matter (in a race to 7 or more), but I'd feel like it was a more fair game from the start.

 

[MapleMan]

That's an indicator that he's a good player, but other than that, all I care about is his playing ability and the same would apply to someone who matches up for money and has zero trophies.

It seems that in this type of discussion any local dirtbag in your local pool hall is equated with every money player in the world. I think that probably the well-accomplished money players of the world couldn't care less about playing pool with you guys who complain about "gamblers".

I do agree that trophies don't mean as much as they did back then. The WC was a bigger deal with a harder format. It was also a time where a player could thrive through the legitimate route of tournaments and exhibitions.

I don't complain about gamblers. I don't know if you were referring to me, I just put that out as food for thought. BTW I have gambled and will play heads up against much better players. I see it as a learning experience for a developing player and do not whine when I lose. I reflect on what went wrong and take it with me to my next game.

 

[The Saw]

I agree. A combination of both is ideal.

Just for the sake of the argument, what generated more profit for you in the same 2-3 hours, leagues or table time? I'm assuming you had alcohol at least, if not food as well.

Around here, there just isn't that gambling crowd, so on the non league night's, it can be quiet. Weekends better, of course, but casual night out folks, couples and groups and such. No serious rooms, I suppose, but plenty of 9-foot tables.

Cool having a reasonable discussion in the midst of this.

24 hour room, 10,000+ sq ft, 24-26 tables, full bar and kitchen.

I always figured that one league match was worth $200 in revenue (quarters dropping, beer, liquor and food). That would vary somewhat depending on if the teams were drinkers or not, but $200 would be a pretty close average. One thing that has become prominent since then is teams playing matches on two tables.... This absolutely sucks for the bar or poolroom that is hosting! There was recently a large blow up amongst some locals on Facebook regarding this, with the majority saying they favor two tables and essentially getting the hell out of there.... League players in most cases are loyal to their team but not so much to their host location. There are some hosts (and I like to think I fit in this category) that really take care of their players/teams and they in no way shape or form deserve for their teams to come in a blow a match out on two or more tables. But that goes back to what I said about the microwave generation, they want everything right now and have no patience. Why have a match take 2-1/2-3 hours when we can play it on 2-3 tables and be out of here in 45 minutes to an hour....... Well, that's exactly why a lot of bars and poolrooms can't make it.

The action crowd on the other hand may not spend as much per hour as a typical league player but they are much more loyal to the host and are there, day in, day out.... I'm don't like to give away trade secrets but you know how a crowd draws a crowd? Well, leagues do that to an extent but its during times you expect to be busy anyway. But the action crowd is there all different hours whether its day or night, or Saturday, Sunday, holidays, etc... The action crowds cars being in the lot draws in a lot of passers by in at off hours. I catered to the action crowd just as much as the league crowd. I would even instigate games or stake people to get things going. Bartram, Corey Deuel, Dee Adkins, Howard Vickery, and a couple other locals got free table time, a meal a day, and soft drinks for free. And what were they doing if not practicing? Gambling, not playing league...

In the end, gambling did way more to draw new players in than league... They see players going at it gambling and they knew it really meant something. Not saying leagues don't mean anything but the level of play is lower and if there is a good player playing league you only get to see it for a few minutes and its over with. Then you may see a few matches where the people can't run more than 3 balls. The gambling match you may not see a guy miss a ball but once every hour or two.... That's when the light comes on in peoples heads---- "Man, I could be that good and play for that kind of money???", next thing you know that guy is there 5-6 days a week and in play for most of it....

 

[trustyrusty]

the only thing I can complain about "gamblers" is....



their LACK of gamble

 

[justadub]

24 hour room, 10,000+ sq ft, 24-26 tables, full bar and kitchen.

snip

Very informative.

The big place where I play (17 9-footers, sports bar/entertainment complex) usually lets us have two tables per match, one for a warm up table that eventually becomes the second match table after 9PM. He keeps a few open for rent, but if our guy there ever has a need for another table to rent, we make sure to clear space for him. He's good to us, most of us try to look out for him too.

The one thing I do know about our group is that he does real well at the bar with us. That particular league stereotype fits us nicely, I guess. There is a pizza joint that leases space there, as well, and we keep them pretty busy too.

This is how it goes on our league nights, Tuesday and Thursday. They don't even open on Mondays half the year, its so slow. (Not now, with football of course.) Wednesdays you can get your choice of tables, as well...

Again, thanks for the discussion.

 

[The Saw]

Very informative.

The big place where I play (17 9-footers, sports bar/entertainment complex) usually lets us have two tables per match, one for a warm up table that eventually becomes the second match table after 9PM. He keeps a few open for rent, but if our guy there ever has a need for another table to rent, we make sure to clear space for him. He's good to us, most of us try to look out for him too.

The one thing I do know about our group is that he does real well at the bar with us. That particular league stereotype fits us nicely, I guess. There is a pizza joint that leases space there, as well, and we keep them pretty busy too.

This is how it goes on our league nights, Tuesday and Thursday. They don't even open on Mondays half the year, its so slow. (Not now, with football of course.) Wednesdays you can get your choice of tables, as well...

Again, thanks for the discussion.

I could deal with the after 9 thing if the match is going slow and that's the way it's supposed to be here but most of the time if the two teams agree its to hell with the rules lets play and get out of here. By 8-8:30 they are done and gone...

 

[justadub]

I could deal with the after 9 thing if the match is going slow and that's the way it's supposed to be here but most of the time if the two teams agree its to hell with the rules lets play and get out of here. By 8-8:30 they are done and gone...

Sheesh. We start at 7, don't usually start the second match table till 9, and we're still lucky to get done much before 11.

Of course, when you're as bad as we are, it takes time

 

[Banks]

I could deal with the after 9 thing if the match is going slow and that's the way it's supposed to be here but most of the time if the two teams agree its to hell with the rules lets play and get out of here. By 8-8:30 they are done and gone...

The only time I see that is during APA masters play, but it's just 3 races to 7(5 8b, 8 9b games), so even without 2 tables it would probably finish by 9 at the latest. With 8b/9b teams, they usually keep it to one table per game unless it's running late. Normal finish time is somewhere around 10:30-11, sometimes as late as midnight or just after. On a few teams, some people will stay until close. They also keep the bartender(s) busy. From what you've said, I can easily see why people wouldn't have much positive to say.