"GAMBLING" • competing

[JoeyA]

"gambling" • "competing"

For definition purposes as it relates to pool, let's consider gambling to include wagering between individuals, gambling in partner games, match games for money, gambling for little bucks and gambling for big bucks with hustling for money thrown in for good measure.

We'll eliminate league play sandbagging, tournament play, practice etc from gambling and add those to Competing. Participating in calcuttas will be part of competing as well.

Competing for definition's sake will be competing in events or matches where there is prestige at stake, tournament winnings (whether they be for cash or other prizes). These will not include match games like the gambling matches that TAR puts on where there is substantial amounts of money to be made by either player, either with stake horses, their money or Tar's money. (Yes, I know that there is substantial money to be made in tournament play but that will be considered "competing".

Many of us play the game of pocket billiards for whatever enjoyment we get out of it and gambling and competing simply aren't part of the equation. I get that but that's not part of this thread.

The questions that I have are as follows:

Do some of you do only one? If only one, WHY?

If you gamble, do you do it for the excitement or do you do it for the money or some other reason?

If you do it for the excitement, how much do you win or lose in a year?
(You can use percentages if you like) .

If you do it for the money, how often do you win? Again, feel free to use percentages as it relates to dollars. In other words, if you lay down frequently for cheap betting so that you can make the big scores, don't count the number of times you laid down versus the number of times you went for the cheese; just compare the total dollars you won and lost and convert them to percentages.

I will be happy to share my candid perspectives about my own gambling or competing but don't want to sully this thread right off, with my thoughts. :grin:

I have some interesting perspectives and they have changed form over the years and continue to do so. In my opinion, there is no right or wrong answer for any of you. I have traveled many of your paths and an curious as to your perspectives. If your perspectives about gambling or competing have always been the same throughout your journey, PLEASE SAY SO.

If you have an opinion about gambling, please share it in this thread whether you gamble or not.

If you have an opinion about competing, please share it in this thread whether you compete or not.

To give some wings to this thread, I'll toss up a few additional questions and feel free to add your own questions.

Do you think someone who only competes is a "nit"?

Do you think someone who only gambles is a "thief"?

Do you think that someone who doesn't compete or gamble a "nit"?

Do you think some or most gamblers are "hustlers"?

Why don't you gamble?
Why don't you compete?

Should gambling be allowed in a pool room?

Is gambling good for pool?

What do you get out of competing?

What do you get out of gambling?

I know that is a lot of questions and you don't have to answer all of them. Maybe you will consider answering just one of them. It's all about sharing your perspective no matter what side of the fence you are on.

I'll share mine after the thread gets rolling if that's all right with most of you.

Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[krupa]

Could you also define what you mean by the phrase "good for pool"?

 

[JoeyA]

Could you also define what you mean by the phrase "good for pool"?

Sure.

Good for pool: In pool's overall best interest. As in, gambling is useful in promoting pool to encourage more people to play the game.
Or this..... Is gambling bad for pool?: "Does gambling sully the image of pool and discourage more people from taking up the sport of pocket billiards?"

 

[SJDinPHX]

For definition purposes as it relates to pool, let's consider gambling to include wagering between individuals, gambling in partner games, match games for money, gambling for little bucks and gambling for big bucks with hustling for money thrown in for good measure.

We'll eliminate league play sandbagging, tournament play, practice etc from gambling and add those to Competing. Participating in calcuttas will be part of competing as well.

Competing for definition's sake will be competing in events or matches where there is prestige at stake, tournament winnings (whether they be for cash or other prizes). These will not include match games like the gambling matches that TAR puts on where there is substantial amounts of money to be made by either player, either with stake horses, their money or Tar's money. (Yes, I know that there is substantial money to be made in tournament play but that will be considered "competing".

Many of us play the game of pocket billiards for whatever enjoyment we get out of it and gambling and competing simply aren't part of the equation. I get that but that's not part of this thread.

The questions that I have are as follows:

Do some of you do only one? If only one, WHY?

If you gamble, do you do it for the excitement or do you do it for the money or some other reason?

If you do it for the excitement, how much do you win or lose in a year?
(You can use percentages if you like) .

If you do it for the money, how often do you win? Again, feel free to use percentages as it relates to dollars. In other words, if you lay down frequently for cheap betting so that you can make the big scores, don't count the number of times you laid down versus the number of times you went for the cheese; just compare the total dollars you won and lost and convert them to percentages.

I will be happy to share my candid perspectives about my own gambling or competing but don't want to sully this thread right off, with my thoughts. :grin:

I have some interesting perspectives and they have changed form over the years and continue to do so. In my opinion, there is no right or wrong answer for any of you. I have traveled many of your paths and an curious as to your perspectives. If your perspectives about gambling or competing have always been the same throughout your journey, PLEASE SAY SO.

If you have an opinion about gambling, please share it in this thread whether you gamble or not.

If you have an opinion about competing, please share it in this thread whether you compete or not.

To give some wings to this thread, I'll toss up a few additional questions and feel free to add your own questions.

Do you think someone who only competes is a "nit"?

Do you think someone who only gambles is a "thief"?

Do you think that someone who doesn't compete or gamble a "nit"?

Do you think some or most gamblers are "hustlers"?

Why don't you gamble?
Why don't you compete?

Should gambling be allowed in a pool room?

Is gambling good for pool?

What do you get out of competing?

What do you get out of gambling?

I know that is a lot of questions and you don't have to answer all of them. Maybe you will consider answering just one of them. It's all about sharing your perspective no matter what side of the fence you are on.

I'll share mine after the thread gets rolling if that's all right with most of you.

Thanks,
JoeyA

Joey,

You must not be aware, that there is a bill before the house, on that very subject..The bill, if passed into law, would make it..
"Illegal NOT to have a wager, when playing Pool OR Golf"...I have been busting my tail getting signatures in support of the bill. I think its a very worthwhile cause, don't you ?..:thumbup:

El Duck <---Is working on having a minimum $$$ amount attached to it..

PS..Your choice of subjects is much better, now that your 'old favorite' has been 86'ed from the main forum..

 

[Icon of Sin]

I hate that you lumped league into competeing with tournaments. Two very different animals in my opinion. That being said. I will answer the best I can.

The questions that I have are as follows:

Do some of you do only one? If only one, WHY?

Both

If you gamble, do you do it for the excitement or do you do it for the money or some other reason?

The money aspect is nice for added pressure plus the few extra dollars in your pocket is cool. I mainly do it to bring out the best in my game. I dont normally play too expensive.

If you do it for the excitement, how much do you win or lose in a year?
(You can use percentages if you like) .

Over the course of a year I usually stay pretty close to even. Maybe little up, maybe little down.

If you do it for the money, how often do you win? Again, feel free to use percentages as it relates to dollars. In other words, if you lay down frequently for cheap betting so that you can make the big scores, don't count the number of times you laid down versus the number of times you went for the cheese; just compare the total dollars you won and lost and convert them to percentages.
see last answer

I will be happy to share my candid perspectives about my own gambling or competing but don't want to sully this thread right off, with my thoughts. :grin:



If you have an opinion about gambling, please share it in this thread whether you gamble or not.

I think it's good for your game at time, but can also bring out the worst in some people.

If you have an opinion about competing, please share it in this thread whether you compete or not.

Tournaments, competing is great. League, try to look at it like a social night and go into it knowing your not going to get anything good out of your game, then it's harder to be disappointed.

To give some wings to this thread, I'll toss up a few additional questions and feel free to add your own questions.

Do you think someone who only competes is a "nit"?

No

Do you think someone who only gambles is a "thief"?

Well being a thief isnt really "gambling"... but some people who play for money could be stealing at times.

Do you think that someone who doesn't compete or gamble a "nit"?

Not really.

Do you think some or most gamblers are "hustlers"?

Some.

Why don't you gamble?
Why don't you compete?

Do both

Should gambling be allowed in a pool room?

Grey area their. I dont think it should be disallowed, but I dont think you should shout it from the rooftops either...

Is gambling good for pool?

Can be at times... movies were made about it.

What do you get out of competing?

tournament: Competition. Pressure scenarios.

What do you get out of gambling?

Competition, Pressure situations, a little strong then a tourney because the prize money is immediately there rather then off at a distant through a field.

 

[Diamond69]

I used to gamble heavily when younger. I would say I was a winner 75%-85% of the time. Back then (late '80s, early '90s), at least where I shot, there weren't too many sets. It was ring games, $20 per rack, etc. More often bars vs pool rooms, maybe that's why it was more per rack bets. Back then, you didn't put your quarters up without thinking you were at least playing for a drink or a few bucks.

Now, it seems if you ask to play for a drink with anyone other then a friend, you're looked at like some sort of freak. Same thing with gambling within tournaments. You'd pay $20 to enter, then have a $10 or $20 wager with your opponent in the tourney. A way to either lose an extra few bucks, or recoup your entry fee even if you didn't make the money rounds. Now, it's unheard of, so I just stopped asking.

Don't gamble much anymore, but if asked I probably would (smaller stakes). Just doesn't have the same allure as when I was younger.

 

[West Point 1987]

Do some of you do only one? If only one, WHY?
I only compete. I used to gamble, but quit. I just wasn't having fun gambling anymore. I didn't like losing (who does?), but I also didn't really like winning the other guy's money, either. I once took a kid's high school ring off him for firing a $10 air barrel at me...I kept the ring as a reminder of how ridiculous this whole thing seemed to me. Almost got killed once running out of a bar after I took off the house stick for $250 (he'd been hustling soldiers out of their paychecks for years, I went hunting him and took him off--was pretty proud of myself, but then thought it all seemed kind of small to me). We made up later, he admitted he deserved it; the town was too small for us to have a beef over a gambling loss. Don't have a judgement on other folks' desires to gamble, that's their gig...just not mine anymore.

Do you think someone who only competes is a "nit"?
Obviously not, since that's what jazzes me these days and I don't think of myself as a "nit".
Do you think someone who only gambles is a "thief"?
Nope. Everyone should have their eyes (and nose) open when deciding to gamble. You deserve to win or lose, based on your skill and your choice to enter the game.
Do you think that someone who doesn't compete or gamble a "nit"?
Nope. It's their business.
Do you think some or most gamblers are "hustlers"?
No. Gamblers wager, hustlers con. There's a big difference.
Why don't you gamble?
See above. It quit being fun.

Should gambling be allowed in a pool room?
It's up to the owner, IMHO. Never liked local laws that legislate "moral values".
Is gambling good for pool?
I'm not sure it is...it definitely has given the game a sour reputation among the non-gambling, non-serious playing types. We all seem to like to romanticize it, and look where it's gotten the game? No big company outside the industry will come near it with a dime for sponsorship/advertising. Everyone outside the game watching it think if it's not fixed, it probably would/could be.
What do you get out of competing?
Personal satisfaction of setting a goal to beat someone who's trying to beat me and doing it.
What do you get out of gambling?
Nothing anymore...that was the problem.

 

[hejests]

I gamble (mostly $20-$50 sets) for the added pressure and incentive. I find that I don't really push myself and bare down unless there's something on the line.

I don't play tournaments all that often mainly because of the logistics. Most of the tournaments I've played in around here are either going start around 8PM on a weekday and finish around 1 or 2 AM if you're in the money or run on a weekend.

I'm usually up for work around 6AM so weeknight tourney's aren't so good and I'd rather spend my weekends with my wife and beautiful daughters.

At least playing sets, it's sort of on demand. I can pretty much go into a pool hall anytime in the evening and find someone to play cheap sets with. Push myself, get my fix and go home.

 

[JoeyA]

Joey,

You must not be aware, that there is a bill before the house, on that very subject..The bill, if passed into law, would make it..
"Illegal NOT to have a wager, when playing Pool OR Golf"...I have been busting my tail getting signatures in support of the bill. I think its a very worthwhile cause, don't you ?..:thumbup:

El Duck <---Is working on having a minimum $$$ amount attached to it..

PS..Your choice of subjects is much better, now that your 'old favorite' has been 86'ed from the main forum..

You've quit drinking haven't you Dick? :thumbup:

 

[JoeyA]

I used to gamble heavily when younger. I would say I was a winner 75%-85% of the time. Back then (late '80s, early '90s), at least where I shot, there weren't too many sets. It was ring games, $20 per rack, etc. More often bars vs pool rooms, maybe that's why it was more per rack bets. Back then, you didn't put your quarters up without thinking you were at least playing for a drink or a few bucks.

Now, it seems if you ask to play for a drink with anyone other then a friend, you're looked at like some sort of freak. Same thing with gambling within tournaments. You'd pay $20 to enter, then have a $10 or $20 wager with your opponent in the tourney. A way to either lose an extra few bucks, or recoup your entry fee even if you didn't make the money rounds. Now, it's unheard of, so I just stopped asking.

Don't gamble much anymore, but if asked I probably would (smaller stakes). Just doesn't have the same allure as when I was younger.

That's a very high percentage of wins you recorded. Congratulations.

Yes, times have changed, just as you mentioned.

 

[JoeyA]

I hate that you lumped league into competeing with tournaments. Two very different animals in my opinion. That being said. I will answer the best I can.

You did GREAT. Thanks!

 

[JoeyA]

Do some of you do only one? If only one, WHY?
I only compete. I used to gamble, but quit. I just wasn't having fun gambling anymore. I didn't like losing (who does?), but I also didn't really like winning the other guy's money, either. I once took a kid's high school ring off him for firing a $10 air barrel at me...I kept the ring as a reminder of how ridiculous this whole thing seemed to me. Almost got killed once running out of a bar after I took off the house stick for $250 (he'd been hustling soldiers out of their paychecks for years, I went hunting him and took him off--was pretty proud of myself, but then thought it all seemed kind of small to me). We made up later, he admitted he deserved it; the town was too small for us to have a beef over a gambling loss. Don't have a judgement on other folks' desires to gamble, that's their gig...just not mine anymore.

Do you think someone who only competes is a "nit"?
Obviously not, since that's what jazzes me these days and I don't think of myself as a "nit".
Do you think someone who only gambles is a "thief"?
Nope. Everyone should have their eyes (and nose) open when deciding to gamble. You deserve to win or lose, based on your skill and your choice to enter the game.
Do you think that someone who doesn't compete or gamble a "nit"?
Nope. It's their business.
Do you think some or most gamblers are "hustlers"?
No. Gamblers wager, hustlers con. There's a big difference.
Why don't you gamble?
See above. It quit being fun.

Should gambling be allowed in a pool room?
It's up to the owner, IMHO. Never liked local laws that legislate "moral values".
Is gambling good for pool?
I'm not sure it is...it definitely has given the game a sour reputation among the non-gambling, non-serious playing types. We all seem to like to romanticize it, and look where it's gotten the game? No big company outside the industry will come near it with a dime for sponsorship/advertising. Everyone outside the game watching it think if it's not fixed, it probably would/could be.
What do you get out of competing?
Personal satisfaction of setting a goal to beat someone who's trying to beat me and doing it.
What do you get out of gambling?
Nothing anymore...that was the problem.

Very interesting...............

 

[nevermiss]

I like to play pool because I like the challenge of trying to become better. It is my experience that pressure, be it gambling or tournaments, is one of if not the best ways to get better. The heat ensures that I give my best effort at all times and keeps me focused. Beyond that, it guarantees that my opponent is doing the same.

One of the problems with gambling in order to compete is that not everyone looks at it through that lens. Some people want to lock up their matches or at least have a marked advantage. Another is that I think it is bad for the image of pool. Mainstream America frowns upon gambling except for instances like the lottery, bingo, and an occasional trip to Vegas.

 

[whitewolf]

The people I gamble with are the people who I don't like. Most of my pool playing friends are like that, a lot of whom used to gamble in their youth for the money, both for the money and for the thrill. If I do get talked into gambling with a jerk, I get as mean as a rattlesnake and shoot a lot better than I normally would.

Having said that, I must admit that I like to gamble in Scotch doubles 8 ball matches. I can do that with friends because it is less intrusive and there are no hard feelings. Plus, it is fun as hell. A lot of chatter, just like in my favorite pool matches to watch where the pro male and female match up to play another pro and female in 8 ball.

 

[Geometric]

I play pool because I love the game, but I also have paid my dues in the game. If I go to a pool hall, I am there strictly to make money. I have a table at home and have 4 or 5 different people that come to my house and play. At home, I play mostly for free and the enjoyment of playing.
When I do play for money at the pool halls, I like to play the people that I don't know. I find it better for me to play people that I don't know because in the past I have played some really good players and I won because I didn't find out who they were until we were done and then people would tell me that I wasn't suppose to win. I feel like if you know that you aren't suppose to beat somebody, that you usually lose. I am not a thief by any means, but I do pick my spots when I do play. I am a working man so pool doesn't have to pay my bills.
I would say that I win about 90% of the time that I step up to the plate. I know someone will bash me, but I don't lose very often....Pool is a game that if you are gonna play for money and win, you have to pay your dues first and then be smart with who you match-up with.
Gambling doesn't hurt pool, the people that take advantage of the gambling and control the outcomes of games instead of really playing the game on the square is what hurts pool.....IMHO

 

[JoeyA]

I play pool because I love the game, but I also have paid my dues in the game. If I go to a pool hall, I am there strictly to make money. I have a table at home and have 4 or 5 different people that come to my house and play. At home, I play mostly for free and the enjoyment of playing.
When I do play for money at the pool halls, I like to play the people that I don't know. I find it better for me to play people that I don't know because in the past I have played some really good players and I won because I didn't find out who they were until we were done and then people would tell me that I wasn't suppose to win. I feel like if you know that you aren't suppose to beat somebody, that you usually lose. I am not a thief by any means, but I do pick my spots when I do play. I am a working man so pool doesn't have to pay my bills.
I would say that I win about 90% of the time that I step up to the plate. I know someone will bash me, but I don't lose very often....Pool is a game that if you are gonna play for money and win, you have to pay your dues first and then be smart with who you match-up with.
Gambling doesn't hurt pool, the people that take advantage of the gambling and control the outcomes of games instead of really playing the game on the square is what hurts pool.....IMHO

Thanks for your candid opinion.

 

[macguy]

I gamble (mostly $20-$50 sets) for the added pressure and incentive. I find that I don't really push myself and bare down unless there's something on the line.

I don't play tournaments all that often mainly because of the logistics. Most of the tournaments I've played in around here are either going start around 8PM on a weekday and finish around 1 or 2 AM if you're in the money or run on a weekend.

I'm usually up for work around 6AM so weeknight tourney's aren't so good and I'd rather spend my weekends with my wife and beautiful daughters.

At least playing sets, it's sort of on demand. I can pretty much go into a pool hall anytime in the evening and find someone to play cheap sets with. Push myself, get my fix and go home.

I don't think unless there is something on the line it is real competition. Even subconsciously, if someone is playing for nothing they may not play their best. It provides them an excuse even if not actually expressed at least to themselves, I.E. "I could have won if I really wanted to". That may or may not be true, in fact if it is true it is even worse. They allowed themselves to play poorly and provided themselves an excuse for it.

Players who don't risk anything don't really know if they would have won or not. They don't know if their win was real or loss was real. How do you know if you were really trying? How do you know what your best is? Your best in practice may not be a predictor of what you will do under pressure.

 

[Matt]

I think that it's easier to break it down into league, tournament play, and gambling, so I will...

I enjoy the team aspect and mentoring of regular league play, but it does mean having to watch some really bad pool being played on a regular basis. It's also frustrating to listen to league players get upset if their skill level goes up since I've always been working to play better and all they want is an edge. Of the few league teams I play on, I enjoy playing APA masters the most since it does away with the handicaps and typically draws only the stronger, more experienced, players. It helps that I have a strong enough team to put up a fight in the city tournament and nationals.

Tournaments are fun on occasion, but they usually result in me sitting around for hours waiting to play someone I either have to give a huge spot to or who spots me a couple games and plays lights out. Even the ones I win have been bittersweet after all the waiting and listening to people fussing about handicaps. The most fun I've had playing tournaments was last year when we got a handful of A/B players together and just played a small no-handicap tournament. I think I'd like the bigger ABC-ranked (like GSBT) tournaments as well, but haven't had the time to play one yet.

As far as gambling (actually, I prefer "wagering") goes, I play cheap quite often, but have never played for enough that I stood to win or lose enough that it would change the rest of my life in any way. $20 sets of 9-ball, $10 games of one pocket, $2 ring games, etc. Almost every week, I meet up with a few other players that are close in skill level and we play cheap ring games, scotch doubles (1 pkt and 14.1 are particularly interesting this way), or match up 1-on-1 for a set or two. It's really just enough to keep score and make it more interesting than just banging balls around, but isn't going to add up to much more than someone getting their tab paid for at the end of the night. We all enjoy it and nobody loses or wins enough to go home feeling mad or guilty.

I think that league, tournament play, and gambling all have something to offer, so I like to do some of each, but consider pool a hobby, so I don't gamble for much. To wrap up some of the loose ends, here are answers to Joey's other questions:

Do you think someone who only competes is a "nit"?
No. I think that someone that is all talk is a nit. I don't care to hear who you could beat if you gambled.
Do you think someone who only gambles is a "thief"?
Only if they cheat.
Do you think that someone who doesn't compete or gamble a "nit"?
Nope.
Do you think some or most gamblers are "hustlers"?
Depends on how you define "hustler". If it means cheating to win, most are not. If it means trying to get an edge by matching up well, any serious gambler should be. Again, I prefer "wager", and any serious wager is formed based on a mutual disagreement.
Should gambling be allowed in a pool room?
I would prefer that it is, but each room should be allowed to decide. Has anyone here been to a room where it's really not allowed?
Is gambling good for pool?
I think that action is good for pool, but labeling it as gambling is not. Seriously, we're not throwing dice or playing roulette, so why put it in the same category?
What do you get out of competing?
In the case of leagues, I get the enjoyment of playing on a team. In the case of a tournament, I have incentive to play my best without the tension of betting on an individual match-up.
What do you get out of gambling?
Since I just play cheap with friends most of the time, it's just enough to keep us all interested and be able to declare someone a winner for the night.

 

[The Saw]

Joey,

You must not be aware, that there is a bill before the house, on that very subject..The bill, if passed into law, would make it..
"Illegal NOT to have a wager, when playing Pool OR Golf"...I have been busting my tail getting signatures in support of the bill. I think its a very worthwhile cause, don't you ?..:thumbup:

El Duck <---Is working on having a minimum $$$ amount attached to it..

PS..Your choice of subjects is much better, now that your 'old favorite' has been 86'ed from the main forum..

I'll sign..... The bill should be ammended that even amongst the best of friends that the minimum bet should be $10 dinners.

 

[BasementDweller]

Gambling....gambling....gambing.....

I sure do have mixed feelings about it. For the most part, I really wish that gambling and pool didn't go hand-in-hand. But unfortunately, it's the world we live in. So, you can either embrace it or be content just banging balls around and not really competing. I guess if you live in a big city where pool is popular you may be able to play in a bunch of tournaments and avoid the gambling altogether, but if you aren't in that situation and you want to compete it's really hard not to gamble.

So, I now do both. If I'm gambling I prefer to keep the stakes friendly, but I'm finding myself sort of drifting into higher stakes matches at times. I'm not one who is overly impressed with guys that can keep their nerve when they are playing for high stakes. I have no doubt that I could just continue upping the stakes to the point where I would be comfortable playing for thousands of dollars. To me, that's just a matter of doing it a few times. I can say that I wouldn't be comfortable playing for that amount of money now, and as a working man I really don't understand the point anyway.

My biggest problem with gambling is the fact that I don't mind throwing a hundred or two at just about anybody but I find this mindset is very rare (and I'm not made of money either). This sort of marks me as a sucker and I realize that, but in my desire to play I tend to give away the nuts I think I'm pretty much done doing that though since everybody else is a freakin' lock smith. It sure does get boring though when people aren't willing to step up and try at least a few sets even before asking for a spot.

The bottom line is, for some people GAMBLING AT POOL, is about making money and for others GAMBLING AT POOL is about POOL. For me, it's still about pool. I plan on keeping it that way even if it costs me a few dollars along the way.