I couldn't agree more:thumbup:
Gambling Strategies
- Thread starter Flip_dat_Quarta
- Start date
During the TAR #1 match, Billy Incardona and Grady Mathews agreed on something I thought was interesting. In their opinion, in a 9-ball race, spotting the 8 ball was about the same as a game on the wire. And that spotting 6:5 on the money was close but slightly larger of a spot. I assume they were talking about typical pro races, such as to 11.
I agree with this ^^^^^^^^ 100%. There is however a flip side to this coin too sometimes. There's always " that guy " everyone LOVE 2 HATE! For some, just the thought of getting into " that guy's " pocket is enough to get them off and if they do get into his pocket it would make their month maybe even their year - and there in lies he challenge. Sometimes you will already be playing someone and they are just constantly talking smack and all you want to do is smash his teeth out with a pool ball but busting him on the table is the next best thing and some will give it their all trying to make that happen. There's always at least one or two of these in every pool room and they know exactly what they're doing and play the part well.
In no way is giving up the 8 like spotting one game on the wire, if that were the case, the if you won the first game....the spot is gone. It favors your opponent in every game if he has 2 balls to win with at any time during the game and you only have one, especially if the 8 is wild meaning he has 2 balls to win with on his break. Spotting on the money is you betting on your favorite player to win against someone else's bet, has nothing to do with the players gambling.
That last part isn't true at all. My buddy offered to play a guy by the ball in One pocket, race to 60 giving up 3 to 1.
I could be way off but I took it as this : when talking about pros that play on that level the 8 ( free or call ) is no kind of a spot and truly is almost irrelevant ( as is a game on the wire in a longer set. Probably on average under these conditions the 8 effecting the outcome to the point that game would not have most likely been won anyway is maybe about once in any given set ( so in other words being like a game on the wire ). As far as the money, I take that as laying odds ( on the set amount between the players - eg : $150 to $125 or whatever the ratio ). I think depending on what the money line is exactly the money odds can be one of the strongest spots out there ESPECIALLY when playing by the game.
True !
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How did you get one pocket out of 9 ball?
Now, are we talking about Pro's gambling....or somewhat in response to the OP?
Yes pros, in response to Grady's comments.
1. When is it better to play by the game compared to by the set?
When you don't know someone well or there true game then play by the game. Also by the game instead of set for time constraints.
2. How do you decide on the amount?
Depends on if they game is even then I like betting cheaper, if it favors me I would like to bet more. Remember what might be a lot of money to you might not be to someone else and vice versa.
3. How do you decide on the set length?
How fast both players play, how many hours you can play before the room closes up, how much you are betting.
4. When is it better to ask for a ball spot compared to games on the wire?
If you are lower level players who don't run out much then the ball spot is huge, the game spot is good when playing someone who is a run out player.
5. When is it better to ask for the last X amount of balls compared to a wild or called ball. For example, would you rather get the last three or the wild 6?
If they are a run out player then it might not matter much but the wild 6 would be my choice, if they are not then the last three is better.
6. Can you come up with a list of different spots and rank them? Such as ranking the various hands in poker. This includes, games on the wire, getting the break, getting a wild ball, getting a called ball, getting the last few balls, getting ball in hand after the break, etc...
That would take more time then I have.
7. Do you prefer to give weight or get weight?
It all depends, I have had easy and tough games both ways. I probably have given more then I have gotten.
8. Do you prefer playing somebody even compared to a better or worse player with weight?
I like giving a weaker player weight preferably but to learn I enjoy playing the better player. Even match ups are fun but if its really even it could become a break even practice session or a test of endurance.
9. When is it better to get odds on the money?
Some people would rather play even and gets odds then a ball spot or game spot. I have played 9 ball by the game giving up 2 or 3-1 on the money, its tough action. By the set in a long race then money odds when you are 2-3 balls better is not a big issue.
10. What level of players are the best to play? Pro, Short Stop, A, B, C, etc...
It depends on what you are trying to do, weaker players if you are trying to win money and Pro-Short Stop if you are trying to learn.
11. How far in the hole do you get before you quit? How many barrels will you fire?
I think 2 to 3 sets is not out of line unless the guy is running over you, it depends upon the score and how you are playing. If I am playing bad I might try to come out of it especially if I know if I play my game I can win.
12. When is it better to play an ahead set?
When you have more stamina then the other guy or are betting a good amount of money as the more skillful/better player should come out ahead as opposed to a single determined race.
13. How many games ahead do you prefer? Why?
I think 7 ahead in rotation is plenty to determine a winner.
14. What's your strategy when you're winning but your opponent won't quit and you're dead tired?
I will let them know beforehand usually how many sets or how long I can play as I realized this saves arguments. If I am falling dead then I will tell them I have two more sets or two more hours left. Also offer to play again and let them know your availability.
15. What's your strategy when you're winning and your opponent continually wants to increase the bet?
I don't mind betting it all if they are stuck say $200 and want to bet double or nothing. If its a tough game I might not bet more then the double or nothing. I also will let someone suffer a bit and not raise it and wait until I want to, its a power play not giving up control and them having their way with me. If they are a sucker and you are stealing then don't let the free money get away and bet it all.
Good luck to you in action. Just remember always post the money, know the rules and agree upon them, set a time limit before you start or amount of sets you are going to play, be a gentlemen.
When you don't know someone well or there true game then play by the game. Also by the game instead of set for time constraints.
2. How do you decide on the amount?
Depends on if they game is even then I like betting cheaper, if it favors me I would like to bet more. Remember what might be a lot of money to you might not be to someone else and vice versa.
3. How do you decide on the set length?
How fast both players play, how many hours you can play before the room closes up, how much you are betting.
4. When is it better to ask for a ball spot compared to games on the wire?
If you are lower level players who don't run out much then the ball spot is huge, the game spot is good when playing someone who is a run out player.
5. When is it better to ask for the last X amount of balls compared to a wild or called ball. For example, would you rather get the last three or the wild 6?
If they are a run out player then it might not matter much but the wild 6 would be my choice, if they are not then the last three is better.
6. Can you come up with a list of different spots and rank them? Such as ranking the various hands in poker. This includes, games on the wire, getting the break, getting a wild ball, getting a called ball, getting the last few balls, getting ball in hand after the break, etc...
That would take more time then I have.
7. Do you prefer to give weight or get weight?
It all depends, I have had easy and tough games both ways. I probably have given more then I have gotten.
8. Do you prefer playing somebody even compared to a better or worse player with weight?
I like giving a weaker player weight preferably but to learn I enjoy playing the better player. Even match ups are fun but if its really even it could become a break even practice session or a test of endurance.
9. When is it better to get odds on the money?
Some people would rather play even and gets odds then a ball spot or game spot. I have played 9 ball by the game giving up 2 or 3-1 on the money, its tough action. By the set in a long race then money odds when you are 2-3 balls better is not a big issue.
10. What level of players are the best to play? Pro, Short Stop, A, B, C, etc...
It depends on what you are trying to do, weaker players if you are trying to win money and Pro-Short Stop if you are trying to learn.
11. How far in the hole do you get before you quit? How many barrels will you fire?
I think 2 to 3 sets is not out of line unless the guy is running over you, it depends upon the score and how you are playing. If I am playing bad I might try to come out of it especially if I know if I play my game I can win.
12. When is it better to play an ahead set?
When you have more stamina then the other guy or are betting a good amount of money as the more skillful/better player should come out ahead as opposed to a single determined race.
13. How many games ahead do you prefer? Why?
I think 7 ahead in rotation is plenty to determine a winner.
14. What's your strategy when you're winning but your opponent won't quit and you're dead tired?
I will let them know beforehand usually how many sets or how long I can play as I realized this saves arguments. If I am falling dead then I will tell them I have two more sets or two more hours left. Also offer to play again and let them know your availability.
15. What's your strategy when you're winning and your opponent continually wants to increase the bet?
I don't mind betting it all if they are stuck say $200 and want to bet double or nothing. If its a tough game I might not bet more then the double or nothing. I also will let someone suffer a bit and not raise it and wait until I want to, its a power play not giving up control and them having their way with me. If they are a sucker and you are stealing then don't let the free money get away and bet it all.
Good luck to you in action. Just remember always post the money, know the rules and agree upon them, set a time limit before you start or amount of sets you are going to play, be a gentlemen.
I will stand by my earlier statement and elaborate a little. With at least half of these questions NO ONE can give you a definitive answer - period, as the answers will be dictated by many things at THAT TIME. Your skill level, their skill level, both bankrolls, game played, time, whether you plan on playing again, on and on and on and on. Just not possible to answer seriously. Honestly a couple of the questions need to be answered up front dictated by common sense, and if you need to ask, you don't need to be gambling. As I and others have said you really need to learn all of this over a long period of time. I will add one thing, I do agree with Arm - if I were someone that really didn't know anything about pool and wanted to entrench myself with " the locals " these would be all the questions I would ask to try and do that. Further more , these are not questions a real pool player would normally ask, just imo of course, ymmv.
You're 100% right, I've never known a pool player yet that asked questions about learning how to gamble.
When stuff like this comes up people always think on the macro level. It's never about that. It's about being accepted at their locality and as we all know we speak a special language known by not many, taking years to aquire. And when we run across someone trying to pass themselves off as a pool player that does not have the skills but only an I'll attempt at the lingo it draws notice. No?
I think Lenny and Drop the Rock showed the most wisdom.Lenny a little more seasoned
i think the question reflects good sense,i don't agree that experience is the best teacher
Ben Franklin,Poor Richards almanac" Experience is a dear teacher but a fool will learn from no other"
by dear he meant a tough,hard teacher
in other words its stupid to ONLY learn from your own personal experiences
I just drove to Houston with Bob Owen,we discussed some of these question on the way
both of us have had lots of experience,I think i can say with little fear of contradiction that i have
played more good to great players than any player of my ability in the world
i am a very weak player and yet i have busted many the road player
The question we talked about was is a set better than playing by the game?
Bob once won over $800 playing $10 and $20 pool from a guy who had never lost
over 2 sets in his life
Just to reflect,when playing someone who has a tendency to lose a game or two and quit
I prefer to tie him down to a longer set if i play him at all
An advantage to playing by the game is that it gives you control over many variables such as
quitting when the game looks bad,this separates the winners from the losers ,knowing when to quit
this is more important than many realize,
so important that it often grates on the opponent who does know when or how to quit
the guy just keeps playing another and another and another, and finally just 1 more
you don't see Las Vegas ask players to play sets do you?
None of this advice pertains to friendly pool,in friendly pool who cares? play cheap to double cheap
offer to buy the dinner when its over
But serious gambling,where you are there to win money,you play to win.
I have to teach the grandchildren not to eat yellow snow and so it is with typical az players
most of AZ people know next to nothing about real pool gambling
when do you jack the bet, ?
1 when you are ahead,unless you perceive that if he loses that will be his last game
say i am ahead 4 games of one hole,in my opinion i have the best of it or i would not be ahead
my opponent says lets play for $200 2x I might say let me see your bank roll i am not firing at an air barrel.
They almost always comply because of my good table presence
if this has revealed they only have 1 game to play or no money just air
I am talking about champions here too
2)I also like to jack the bet any time I think his bankroll justifies my investment
Say the guy has $1000 and we are playing for $200
why jack it I am going to get the $1000 anyway
But say the guy is a really high roller that I know can afford to bet $!0,000
Jack the bet everytime i can
you ask,
How do I know this stuff?
I know
By making request like this I take control of the game
For instance lets say a guy strolls up and says"you want to match up"
I don't like to say sure what you have in mind?
I might say confidentially to him"What kind of money are we talking about?"
if he says $25 ,50 I might say,thank you anyway I don't really enjoy cheap pool"
if he says how much would you play for, I might say Would $200 pr game
be possible for you"
lets weed out the short shots right away
control is the idea i am trying to show here 'not an exact figure
if the inspection reveals that my worthy opponent is on the shorts
i say"lets play when you are not on the shorts"
I can't risk my bank roll with a player as tough as you for short money,
go get some money or partners and we will talk
I never knowingly play people without money and i welcome him doubling the bet
There are people who just ask you to double to test your pulse
if you say ok,they quit saying i knew you had the nuts or you would not accept my offer
they also do this as a show of false bravado to scare you.The weak at heart fold up in doubt if the opponent sounds confident
i salute you for asking these questions,i never could play good but achieved some measure of success because of knowing these and several other more important questions not because i could play
poor players get lots of offers
as to who to play,i recommend never playing cheap pool or practicing with anyone,and only playing people who have money and demonstrated a willingness to lose and keep playing
that is if you only goal is to win money in cash games
when action dried up and i began practicing with weak or cheap brokes it ruined my action forever here
i believe it best to not associate with weak or broke players,the knock,lie,cheat,and speak disparagingly to and about you,if you want to win and win big don't run with the pack
don't talk like them,act like them,dress like them and they will assume you are stupid unlike them
play with an expensive cue and case and don't share your critiques of the other games and don't attempt to look smart or broke
an image of wealth encourages the pool bums to offer you the nuts,thinking they are taking a shot at the money
always play the man with a big stake horse
conventional wisdom says,naw make him bet his own so he will dog it
this is faulty for 2 obvious reasons
1) he has no money
2) who cares if he dogs it or not you already have the best of it
best wishes
These are some of my yellow snow lectures
i think the question reflects good sense,i don't agree that experience is the best teacher
Ben Franklin,Poor Richards almanac" Experience is a dear teacher but a fool will learn from no other"
by dear he meant a tough,hard teacher
in other words its stupid to ONLY learn from your own personal experiences
I just drove to Houston with Bob Owen,we discussed some of these question on the way
both of us have had lots of experience,I think i can say with little fear of contradiction that i have
played more good to great players than any player of my ability in the world
i am a very weak player and yet i have busted many the road player
The question we talked about was is a set better than playing by the game?
Bob once won over $800 playing $10 and $20 pool from a guy who had never lost
over 2 sets in his life
Just to reflect,when playing someone who has a tendency to lose a game or two and quit
I prefer to tie him down to a longer set if i play him at all
An advantage to playing by the game is that it gives you control over many variables such as
quitting when the game looks bad,this separates the winners from the losers ,knowing when to quit
this is more important than many realize,
so important that it often grates on the opponent who does know when or how to quit
the guy just keeps playing another and another and another, and finally just 1 more
you don't see Las Vegas ask players to play sets do you?
None of this advice pertains to friendly pool,in friendly pool who cares? play cheap to double cheap
offer to buy the dinner when its over
But serious gambling,where you are there to win money,you play to win.
I have to teach the grandchildren not to eat yellow snow and so it is with typical az players
most of AZ people know next to nothing about real pool gambling
when do you jack the bet, ?
1 when you are ahead,unless you perceive that if he loses that will be his last game
say i am ahead 4 games of one hole,in my opinion i have the best of it or i would not be ahead
my opponent says lets play for $200 2x I might say let me see your bank roll i am not firing at an air barrel.
They almost always comply because of my good table presence
if this has revealed they only have 1 game to play or no money just air
I am talking about champions here too
2)I also like to jack the bet any time I think his bankroll justifies my investment
Say the guy has $1000 and we are playing for $200
why jack it I am going to get the $1000 anyway
But say the guy is a really high roller that I know can afford to bet $!0,000
Jack the bet everytime i can
you ask,
How do I know this stuff?
I know
By making request like this I take control of the game
For instance lets say a guy strolls up and says"you want to match up"
I don't like to say sure what you have in mind?
I might say confidentially to him"What kind of money are we talking about?"
if he says $25 ,50 I might say,thank you anyway I don't really enjoy cheap pool"
if he says how much would you play for, I might say Would $200 pr game
be possible for you"
lets weed out the short shots right away
control is the idea i am trying to show here 'not an exact figure
if the inspection reveals that my worthy opponent is on the shorts
i say"lets play when you are not on the shorts"
I can't risk my bank roll with a player as tough as you for short money,
go get some money or partners and we will talk
I never knowingly play people without money and i welcome him doubling the bet
There are people who just ask you to double to test your pulse
if you say ok,they quit saying i knew you had the nuts or you would not accept my offer
they also do this as a show of false bravado to scare you.The weak at heart fold up in doubt if the opponent sounds confident
i salute you for asking these questions,i never could play good but achieved some measure of success because of knowing these and several other more important questions not because i could play
poor players get lots of offers
as to who to play,i recommend never playing cheap pool or practicing with anyone,and only playing people who have money and demonstrated a willingness to lose and keep playing
that is if you only goal is to win money in cash games
when action dried up and i began practicing with weak or cheap brokes it ruined my action forever here
i believe it best to not associate with weak or broke players,the knock,lie,cheat,and speak disparagingly to and about you,if you want to win and win big don't run with the pack
don't talk like them,act like them,dress like them and they will assume you are stupid unlike them
play with an expensive cue and case and don't share your critiques of the other games and don't attempt to look smart or broke
an image of wealth encourages the pool bums to offer you the nuts,thinking they are taking a shot at the money
always play the man with a big stake horse
conventional wisdom says,naw make him bet his own so he will dog it
this is faulty for 2 obvious reasons
1) he has no money
2) who cares if he dogs it or not you already have the best of it
best wishes
These are some of my yellow snow lectures
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Hey I think both of our responses were about the same. You have much more wisdom than I do sir and I respect your gamble!
Deano, so sorry but didn't make it thru the whole post lol. Couple things; yes any chance you can get a good look at the bank roll do so - without being a dick and getting yourself smacked lol. Dean, I do know you are well experienced and i have one problem ( difference ) with your advice - ANYTIME, ANYTIME WHAT SO EVER you are playing for ANY knd of money with someone you are NOT 100% comfortable with a post NEEDS TO BE UP 100% of the time. Not only to ensure you get paid but as importantly to make sure a fight does not ensue. Deano, I do understand it was a little different in your time but in the spirit of giving folks GOOS ADVICE now a days the post ALWAYS NEEDS TO BE UP --- CORRECT??? Yea, there are still exceptions still today but for the benefit of our audience the post ALWAYS NEEDS TO BE UP right Dean?
PS Dean - ill be in Houstan to meet ya. Yeah ill play one pocket and spot ya the 10-5 ya want and while I really don't want to I will play you some $2000 a game for some fun. Of course ill show you the money first ( " the suitcase of course " ) but due to not knowing that many people in Houston I will not be posting with anyone. I know ots cool cause you're cool so we are gonna have some fun brother! We will pay off on 5 games k?
Lenny does have MUCH GAMBLE, but I still disagree. His answer may be good for a " catch all " but I'm sure he will admit it all depends on A LOTTA SHEET and prob not even once has he went strictly by what he posted. I garuntee it. No disrespect Lenny but I'm sure you feel me.