Gambling to Be the Best

Blackjack said:
Mike,
I respectfully disagree with you on all of your points. I didn't write the Bible, but I live by what it says.

Good Luck to you

Blackjack,

No matter what I personally believe, I respect the fact that you are not a hypocrite. You've determined that gambling is unacceptable according to the religious beliefs you've embraced. A hypocrite would look for ways around that.

Personally, I don't think there's anything morally wrong with recreational wagering as far as a personal decision goes. This, to me, is as unlike gambling as having a beer is to alcoholism. It's just not the same thing.

However, I do strongly agree that it's wrong to steal money from people. That's the "pool room" attitude that disgusts me - the idea of trapping a seriously outmatched player into a game and robbing him makes me sick.

Chris
 
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Blackjack said:
I don't believe I had an addiction to gambling. I never lost much. I did make my living as a road warrior. When I did so, I was very dishonest and my actions in doing so meet the criteria set down to qualify as "sin". Gambling was not the only thing on my agenda. My gambling profits also supported other bad habits. I make no secret of that. What I wrote in my earlier post is straight from the Bible, not from The Book of Blackjack. The misconception is that I "look down upon those that do", which isn't true at all. I believe that I (of all people) have written some of the most in-depth articles on the subject of gambling and pool. Being an expert and having lived the life, I have the experience to speak about the subject. Having educated myself while in my walk with Christ also qualifies me to give an opinion from that viewpoint as well. I also have a long list of dead friends that were never able to conquer their demons, and I consider myself fortunate enough just to be sitting here and able to write this to you.

I did not stop gambling when I became a Christian. I actually stopped gambling a few years prior to that. I was never "sucked into the lifestyle"... I was a willing participant in that lifestyle from start to finish. I was off drugs and alcohol for almost 15 years prior to being born again.

The harm in playing for affordable stakes... it all goes back to justification... and greed... which has everything to do with it... I never got into any money game without having to entice another player into it in one way or another.

If interested, here is my short list on how it is covered in different areas of the bible: I collected some of this from several Christian sites - so don't dispute it with me)

Gambling conflicts with the Bible in at least six major areas: It violates the principles of:
1) Earning a living through righteous means (Ephesians 4:28),
2) Loving your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:37-39; 7:12),
3) Shunning the appearance of evil (Romans 12:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:22),
4) Christian stewardship (1 Corinthians 16:2; 2 Corinthians 9:6-7),
5) Showing a Christ-like example (Romans 12:17),
6) God's plan for the home (Ephesians 5:23-31; 6:1-4).

(I didn't write that, it comes straight from the Bible - God's Words, not mine)

Gambling is a greedy desire to get something for nothing at the expense of the loser. It is not an innocent past time nor is it a fund raiser. It is covetousness. Colossians 3:5 says covetousness is idolatry; and, idolatry and sin. Always remember that the bible does not say that "Money is the root of all evil", its says that "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil".
BlackJack,

This is the point of my previous post. How can you say that my gambling, to me, is not an innocent past time. You have never met me to know what my gambling sessions are like. My friends and I put small stakes on friendly games. And why do you even mention that "Love of Money" quote. I have said that I play for stakes that don't affect my financial well being at all. And you quote the bible with verses that are interpreted many ways by every person who reads it. But you feel that yours is the only valid opinion and what someone else interprets doesn't matter. Your interpretation is not cast in stone.

Maybe, while you are quoting the bible, you should look at Luke 6:37. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. Condemn not and ye shall not be condemned. Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. There aren't many different interpretations that can be put on that verse, are there?

Mike
 
Is Gambling a Sin?

I like to read threads about gambling because I've been doing it for most of my life....Once I asked a pastor in a Christian church whether gambling is a sin and why it isn't one of the Ten Commandments? He sorta referred to the part about "coveting" and it's having to do with greed...But he didn't have a good answer for my following question..."then why do so many churches have bingo games?" As to gambling in pool, IMHO, so much of it has to do with fooling somebody into losing his money to you because of deception.....in other words, HUSTLING...and how about the one who posted earlier saying that, " playing for money in pool is not gambling because there's no luck involved, just skill," .... Give me a break.....Isn't that what they say about Poker too? Anyway, if you're playing somebody for money in pool and it isn't gambling, then you're probably robbing.....
 
whitewolf said:
It's like you said: your family is holding you back and it is good that you have recognized that being a weekend warrior may suffice. Do yourself a favor and put in the long long long day onetime! - while you are still young with no back aches LOL.
I'm not sure I would say that my family is holding me back....While it's true that I can't spend as much time as I probably need to advance, playing pro again isn't my number one priority anyway (and I'm actually a bit dismayed I haven't portrayed that accurately in my column).

I will consider the "long long long day" and see what my coach (hubby) thinks of the merits (and possibilities) of such. Should be a breeze - I used to love to play for 16 hours straight!! :)
 
Mike Templeton said:
BlackJack,

This is the point of my previous post. How can you say that my gambling, to me, is not an innocent past time. You have never met me to know what my gambling sessions are like. My friends and I put small stakes on friendly games. And why do you even mention that "Love of Money" quote. I have said that I play for stakes that don't affect my financial well being at all. And you quote the bible with verses that are interpreted many ways by every person who reads it. But you feel that yours is the only valid opinion and what someone else interprets doesn't matter. Your interpretation is not cast in stone.

Maybe, while you are quoting the bible, you should look at Luke 6:37. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. Condemn not and ye shall not be condemned. Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. There aren't many different interpretations that can be put on that verse, are there?

Mike

Why come back at me as if I wrote the Bible? Is your problem with me or with what I am saying? To be judgmental, I would have to judge, and I have merely referred you to passages of scripture that relate to this discussion.
Also, I don't look down upon anybody that gambles. It was part of the road that got me where I am at today in my Christian walk, and some may have to travel those same roads, so why would I judge? I can't see where I said anything about "Mike Templeton's gambling endeavors" in any of my posts. Your earlier response, I disagreed with you on every single point, and I challenge you to bring it up with any minister of any denomination of Christianity and see if their response is much different than mine. The Bible says what it says, and your reaction to my posts shows that you might have a problem with that. I disagreed with your earlier post on all counts because it justified the behavior, and nothing more. Your argument is that it says that the bible doesn't specifically say it is wrong (and it does say that it is), well if I am incorect, then you show me where it says that gambling is acceptable. Don't waste your time.

It's not Me (David Sapolis) saying you are incorrect for engaging in the activity, I am merely pointing out passges of scripture that clearly define the roots of the activity as being sinful. In my initial comment I touched upon the subject of spiritual discernment. This is not something I dreamed up, it is a fact when dealing with people that are easily enticed into situations or give in to temptations. The more the person engages in the questionable activity, the cloudier the spiritual discernment becomes (as to whether it is a real sin, or just a minor sin, but sin nonetheless). This gives birth to justification, which is the chief identifier that the behavior is wrong in the first place.

If you are non-Christian, or a believer that is not born again, then I don't expect you to accept this easily. Jesus Christ wasn't accepted very well either, and 2000+ years later we're still having this discussion over what is right and what is wrong. It is all clearly marked out in the Bible, which you say that you have read. That's fine and dandy, but please understand that the Bible should not be interpreted superficially. I did that at one time myslef. I read it and interpreted it in my own way - and I was clueless. Today I am careful to NOT make the Bible say what I want it to say. I also bridge some gaps. I bridge the gaps of language, culture, geography, and
bridge gaps historically. This takes a long time.

I just don't want to give you the impression that I am sitting here behind a pulpit with a bible in my hand shaking my fist at all gambling pool players. That's not the case. I am but a small part of the body of the church. I read the bible, I study the bible, I teach the bible, and I do my best every day to live according to God's word. I still fail from time to time, but that's because I am not perfect - only He is.
 
I am not so sure I agree with this post. I am in law school now, as I couldn't find a job after undergraduate school (that would pay enough to pay bills and student loans) and in order to make it through all of my schooling I have had to take out a mortgage on my brain.

I think for anyone who is of modest means, higher education is looking more and more like a gambling. Perhaps, becoming a lawyer is smart gambling, but it is looking increasingly risky in the present economy.

kollegedave


Donald A. Purdy said:
Terry, I do not believe you need to gamble to become the best you can be. I also don't believe that people who are in the top ten in their chosen field, boxing, golf, basketball, football, doctors, lawyers or any other profession, got there through gambling.
 
Donald A. Purdy said:
Terry, I do not believe you need to gamble to become the best you can be.
I also don't believe that people who are in the top ten in their chosen field, boxing, golf, basketball, football, doctors, lawyers or any other profession, got there through gambling. I know some pretty heavy gamblers myself. 1 is a stake horse who thinks nothing about losing 30 or 40 grand in a couple of days. Then go back the very next week and try and win it back. It is all about something for nothing, egos, and hustling. You want to play for a couple of beers, table time, or lunch, let's do it. I do not want your food money, rent money, gas money, or money better off spent on your kids. Maybe I am strange, but I would rather give ya $500 in a time of need than go blow it on gambling. Some people would call it "No Heart", I call it "Good Heart".
Purdman
TAP,TAP,TAP Couldnt agree more,M.Sellers
 
Donald A. Purdy said:
The Christian and Gambling

by: Todd Clippard



America is becoming a nation of habitual gamblers. Conservative estimates place the legal gambling total at $40 billion annually. Probably every state in the union has legalized gambling in some form, whether it be casino gambling, horse and dog tracks, the lottery, bingo, raffles, or such like. Gambling is a sin. As such, no Christian should participate in it or encourage its legalization in any way...


Purdman ( Standing In The Need Of Prayer )

Some good points raised but I thought I'd contribute two or twenty cents here:

For one thing, the actual definition of 'gambling' is something I would dispute. By law, in order to have 'gambling' as of the kind that violates some laws, you must have three components 1) prize 2) chance and 3) consideration, where prize is the money or object of value you win, chance is the element of luck, and consideration is the money you invest. If any one of those elements is removed then the act is no longer GAMBLING (that's why it's not illegal to play in contests at McDonald's or Wendy's or whatever, because they're free - the element of consideration has been removed). When two people wager money on a game of pool, element #2, chance, has been removed, because pool is a game of skill. Thus we can no longer call it gambling. This is black letter law.

Interestingly both courts and theologians have ruled this way. Wagering money on a pool game (or golf, tennis, bowling, darts, whatever) is not a sin, because it is not, in actual fact, gambling, by the strictest definition of the word. Additionally, to follow the religious aspect, the actual sin is GREED, not gambling. Thus if you can gamble in a social manner, without greed, then it is no longer a sin. Several big-time poker players are serious Christians and, since they play poker for their living, have related that this is how they justify their profession on religious grounds. I tend to agree with them.

To cover the other issue and the relevance of gambling/wagering to improve one's skill, I can say this: Pool, and especially nine ball, is a fairly easy game. Running nine balls in numerical order is no great feat in and of itself. The thing that separates the great players from the not so great isn't the quality of shots that the great players make, but rather that they are able to make them when they matter most. Thus it is my opinion that without some relevant consideration on the part of the players involved, the most important pool skill of them all - the ability to perform under pressure - is removed, and so then is the true depth of the game.

A smilar comment was once made by a champion bridge player regarding the game of poker. He said in essence that he felt that poker was a far more complex card game than bridge but, "the true complexity of poker is often shadowed, because poker MUST be played for money or the game has no meaning whatsoever." I think the same is true of pool.

Furthermore, your points regarding legalized gambling may be true, but I would suggest that the perceived positives from the jurisdictions involved must outweigh the negatives or they wouldn't have passed the laws. I would also say that legalized 'gambling' relates to games of chance, as in craps, blackjack or slot machines, and that playing pool, both by law and by definition, does not and should not fall into that category.

Everyone thinks that playing pool for money is some sort of degenerate behavior. I think it's a bum rap - just because there are some degenerates out there who happen to play for money doesn't mean that we all fall into that category.

"...cloth that was itself, the color of money." --Walter Tevis
 
The Rattlesnake.

TheOne said:
But all in all nothing to do with heart or cowards it just about getting used to playing under pressure and in front of large crowds. This in my opinion is great preperation for tournament play and I could never understand why a good money player could not play well in tournaments?

The One, this reminds me of one person and that is Dodong Andam. Very tough $$$ player, but very very few titles.
 
Blackjack said:
Gambling is a greedy desire to get something for nothing at the expense of the loser. It is not an innocent past time nor is it a fund raiser. It is covetousness. Colossians 3:5 says covetousness is idolatry; and, idolatry and sin. Always remember that the bible does not say that "Money is the root of all evil", its says that "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil".
BlackJack,

My beef is not with you. If I have not made it clear, I respect your opinion as a pool player (I am eagerly awaiting Lesson #3) and as a person who has knowledge about our sport. My concern is with your (what seems to me as) talking down to us because we disagree with your stance on gambling. You made the above statement, and though it didn't say "Mike Templeton's gambling habits", it seems to speak to everyone who gambles, including me. It belittles everyone who wagers any stake at all, with no discern between the stakes or friendliness of the game. I feel that there are different levels of gambling, and that it is possible for it to interfere in having a normal life. But to put small wagers to make a game more interesting? With no chance of the stakes being too high to fade? Well, to me, this seems trivial and unworthy of such harsh statements from you, toward anyone who bets a nickel.

And I still believe that you (and every avid Christian I have met) is somewhat judgemental. Or maybe it seems judgemental to me only, and the way you state things is your way to try to convert people, or get them to see things as your religion teaches.

And I apologize to you if you feel that I was flaming you. Again, I respect your opinion as a player, an ex-road warrior, a student of the game, and as a person. I just find it hard to see why, having had a completely different opinion on gambling earlier in your life, why you can't say that you understand why some of us feel like we do about the subject.

Mike
 
Mike Templeton said:
BlackJack,

My beef is not with you. If I have not made it clear, I respect your opinion as a pool player (I am eagerly awaiting Lesson #3) and as a person who has knowledge about our sport. My concern is with your (what seems to me as) talking down to us because we disagree with your stance on gambling. You made the above statement, and though it didn't say "Mike Templeton's gambling habits", it seems to speak to everyone who gambles, including me. It belittles everyone who wagers any stake at all, with no discern between the stakes or friendliness of the game. I feel that there are different levels of gambling, and that it is possible for it to interfere in having a normal life. But to put small wagers to make a game more interesting? With no chance of the stakes being too high to fade? Well, to me, this seems trivial and unworthy of such harsh statements from you, toward anyone who bets a nickel.

And I still believe that you (and every avid Christian I have met) is somewhat judgemental. Or maybe it seems judgemental to me only, and the way you state things is your way to try to convert people, or get them to see things as your religion teaches.

And I apologize to you if you feel that I was flaming you. Again, I respect your opinion as a player, an ex-road warrior, a student of the game, and as a person. I just find it hard to see why, having had a completely different opinion on gambling earlier in your life, why you can't say that you understand why some of us feel like we do about the subject.

Mike

Mike, you need to know the differance between judging the sin and judging the sinner here. No one is pointing any fingers. Blackjack is just telling you how he feels about gambling as an ex gambler and a born again Christian. I have pretty much tried to do the same thing. You shouldn't feel offended at all. I also have a problem with some Christians and will put it up for discussion here. The Bible says that God created us with " unconditional love ". Then he gave us " freedom of choice ". Then they tell us that if we make the wrong choice, he is gonna throw out the unconditional love and burn me up in hell for eternity. Something just don't jive here.
I believe we are here to learn why we should have listened to him in the first place. We do this by reaping what we sow. God will let us beat our head against the brick wall all we want to. This is where all our pain and suffering comes from. Gambling has ruined many lives just like drugs, alcohol, sex, tobacco, greed, hate, intolerance, and judgement. You still have your free will man. Gamble on my friend. I don't have a problem with what you do, I just don't do it.
Don
 
Donald A. Purdy said:
Mike, you need to know the differance between judging the sin and judging the sinner here. No one is pointing any fingers. Blackjack is just telling you how he feels about gambling as an ex gambler and a born again Christian. I have pretty much tried to do the same thing. You shouldn't feel offended at all. I also have a problem with some Christians and will put it up for discussion here. The Bible says that God created us with " unconditional love ". Then he gave us " freedom of choice ". Then they tell us that if we make the wrong choice, he is gonna throw out the unconditional love and burn me up in hell for eternity. Something just don't jive here.
I believe we are here to learn why we should have listened to him in the first place. We do this by reaping what we sow. God will let us beat our head against the brick wall all we want to. This is where all our pain and suffering comes from. Gambling has ruined many lives just like drugs, alcohol, sex, tobacco, greed, hate, intolerance, and judgement. You still have your free will man. Gamble on my friend. I don't have a problem with what you do, I just don't do it.
Don

Hey Purd,

I understand where you are coming from. Maybe BlackJack was judging the sin, and I took it personally. Gambling and the other things you mention have ruined many lives.

Unsure about much of the Christian religion, I can't speak for what God offers either of us. But I do wish you, BlackJack, and other Christians the best of luck with your chosen paths. It is a personal choice, and I know that both you and BlackJack feel that you have made the correct choice.

Mike
 
Mike Templeton said:
Hey Purd,

I understand where you are coming from. Maybe BlackJack was judging the sin, and I took it personally. Gambling and the other things you mention have ruined many lives.

Unsure about much of the Christian religion, I can't speak for what God offers either of us. But I do wish you, BlackJack, and other Christians the best of luck with your chosen paths. It is a personal choice, and I know that both you and BlackJack feel that you have made the correct choice.

Mike

Mike, I am not an ultra right wing Christian. As a matter of fact, I think they are a bunch of hypocrites. I like the bumper sticker that says, " The Christian Right is Neither ". I remember a little poem from my childhood. It goes like this, " Everywhere that God has built a church, the devil has built a steeple, and half the congregation follows the latter of the two". One must keep this in mind. I also know that there is no better example of how we should live our lives than the example that Jesus set. The bar was raised thru his life and death. I strive to get there. Gambling won't help me get there either. This I do know.
Don
 
Donald A. Purdy said:
" Everywhere that God has built a church, the devil has built a steeple, and half the congregation follows the latter of the two". Don

If you think about it, Jesus never really preached in a church did he? He took his ministry out to the people where ever they happened to be. He even approached a working girl once while she was on the j-o-b. Pretty hard to picture Jesus laying down a bet on a pool game. Maybe he didn't preach against it but I think it's pretty safe to say he probably wouldn't condone it.
 
Rickw said:
Pretty hard to picture Jesus laying down a bet on a pool game.


He couldn't have because pocket billiards wasn't really invented yet. I think they might have had a version of golf though with those long walking sticks and hardened camel dung. Could have been some gambling at that among the disciples. (just guessing though)
 
Rickw said:
If you think about it, Jesus never really preached in a church did he? He took his ministry out to the people where ever they happened to be. He even approached a working girl once while she was on the j-o-b. Pretty hard to picture Jesus laying down a bet on a pool game. Maybe he didn't preach against it but I think it's pretty safe to say he probably wouldn't condone it.

I don't know about Jesus, but I think God plays pretty well. I heard a guy in the pool room the other night saying he played in a tournament last weekend. He said that the guy who beat him out played like God. He must have seen God to play to make the comparison.

Mike
 
Hey Mike, you know I've heard that same phrase from time to time. God must play a mean game of pool huh?
 
Here is my take on the Positives of gambling.

I don't gamble high stakes often but if both parties are willing, and respectful to each other and understand the risks then fine.

Here is a situation where in my opinion NOT GAMBLING would have been the real crime.

Yesterday me and 2 buddies went golfing, 2 of us play pretty even and 1 of us needs about a 1/4 stroke a hole to play even. Before we started we decided to play 25 cents a hole. The most anyone is going to lose if they can't win a single hole is $4.50. But when you got that dicey 3-4 footer that isn't a gimme, it puts the pressure on, especially if 4 skins are riding on it. That is where the positives of gambling lie. I came out at the end of the day a $3 winner 1 guy lost $2.25 and one guy lost $.75. The gambling made it 100x more fun, just for the comraderie. Plus when somebody has to make a 8 or 9 footer to half the whole, you get behind each other.

Same thing applies to pool for me. $5 isn't gonna kill my wallet at the end of the day. If i play $1-$5 a game with someone and end up the $20 loser I'm happy, if I'm a $20 winner I'm happy, if i break even, give or take $5, it makes no difference. But well i am playing for these small stakes i am enoying myself a little more. To not Gamble here is the Crime. Just like poker as someone already stated, the money makes it more interesting. Poker isn't even a game if you arent playing for real money. Its also a good way to keep score.

I think Gambling being a SIN has to do with the Mental condition of both player. I'm willing to pay $20 to see a movie, and I'm willing to lose $20 if it means having a little more fun, getting my heart rate up just a little more. Gambling can give you a HIGH just like a drug.

I use the Movie comparison for blackjack as well. If i play $5 a hand blackjack and lose $60 over a few hours (a decent player should be able to make $60 last a while) i treat it as an hourly rate for entertainment. In the back of my mind im not thinking about how great it would be if i won, how rich im gonna get, or how much i WANT the money. I'm thinking playing this game costs a little bit of money and i enjoy playing it, so its worth my money. Just like paying for table time at the poolhall.

So do i deny myself playing a game i enjoy just because it costs money thru gambling, not thru being charged a set amount? Is this the christian way?
 
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just like all sports/games...people get better b/c they want to get better...some people just like to win, i dont need money to make it "worth" it to win and the fear of losing money isnt what will make me play better...

the need to win makes people better...some people just dont have enough in them to want to win b/c it is for them, they have to put something "on the line" to make it worth it to win.

oh and yeah, i have and do play for money...but it doesnt have anything to do w/ making me play better...

pro athletes practice for free but win money on game/match day!!!!!!!!!!!

hope this makes sense?
 
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