Gender division in the pool room

I was sitting at the table with Mizerak, Martin, Margo, Balner and others; and what did they ask me at the boardroom table? They asked me if I would mind serving the coffee.

So did you serve? What was your response?

I'm curious if the same gender gap exists in other countries. As far as the United States I think it's one of those things that never really changed. This is just billiards place in American culture, there's never been much of a movement to change it
 
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There are more women then ever playing pool.
In my pool hall they are taking sign ups for a women's league and have over 30 names down already.

These are all casual players.
 
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I'm curious if the same gender gap exists in other countries. As far as the United States I think it's one of those things that never really changed. This is just billiards place in American culture, there's never been much of a movement to change it

I know that in Canada (where I live), the atmosphere in the pool halls I have been to are geared towards men. For example, the waitresses wear EXTREMELY tight clothing and black mini skirts. The posters on the wall advertising pool/snooker events have models of women, and I almost always see pictures of male pros on the wall. I know there are also female pros as well, but they are never represented. I am not offended, but I believe it is possible that women don't necessarily feel fully welcomed there. I may be wrong.
 
So did you serve? What was your response?

I'm curious if the same gender gap exists in other countries. As far as the United States I think it's one of those things that never really changed. This is just billiards place in American culture, there's never been much of a movement to change it

I had all of 3 seconds to decide what to do. I decided to choose my battles wisely and that wasn't the time. So I served the coffee. But not without a couple of opportunistic spills here and there, just to satisfy myself.

It was at that meeting that the men decided that we weren't a threat --- which I'm sure was helped by my cooperation in serving the coffee, and they decided to allow the women to tag along at their events. That was the beginning of the men and women playing together, which we did for about 10 years, much to the delight of the spectators.

It also lent to Jean Balukas playing in both men and women's divisions which the spectators loved but the men hated once she started winning matches against some of the stronger male players. The men began to revolt and I remember Ray Martin threatening to wear a dress and enter the women's event. (I thought that it was interesting that he felt he had to wear a dress to enter the women's event, especially since we were all wearing pants and he would have been the only one in a dress.)

As a result, the men ruled that the women could not play in men's events, and it was that way for many years to come.
 
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I had all of 3 seconds to decide what to do. I decided to choose my battles wisely and that wasn't the time. So I served the coffee. But not without a couple of opportunistic spills here and there, just to satisfy myself.

It was at that meeting that the men decided that we weren't a threat --- which I'm sure was helped by my cooperation in serving the coffee, and they decided to allow the women to tag along at their events. That was the beginning of the men and women playing together, which we did for about 10 years, much to the delight of the spectators.

It also lent to Jean Balukas playing in both men and women's divisions which the spectators loved but the men hated once she started winning matches against some of the stronger male players. The men began to revolt and I remember Ray Martin threatening to wear a dress and enter the women's event. (I thought that it was interesting that he felt he had to wear a dress to enter the women's event, especially since we were all wearing pants and he would have been the only one in a dress.)

As a result, the men ruled that the women could not play in men's events, and it was that way for many years to come.

WoW!!! Very humbling Fran. Did you know that Margarette Thatcher had a similar encounter? There is something about it on the movie The Iron Lady.

During my last match I played a SL 5 HE is much better than me. And, after I won the match let me know that I was very lucky during the game. Umm yeah that got me thinking, I must be a freaking Lucky charm then, because I won 9 of the 11 matches last season.
I was fuming, but I just smiled.:grin-square:
 
1. Less women play sports in general, not just less in pool.

All points I agree with, except 1, sort of. Although it is likely true that most sports have more male participants than female, even possibly the same as pool, I think it's the manner of participation that is the problem. Unfortunately I can't find exact statistics since the market research company that provided the information the BCA has on their website, requires you to pay $40 to see the results of any other sports they included in their study. Each.

Of the 13 million women that play pool at least once per year only about 3 million play more than 13 times a year. Unfortunately that is a rather meaningless statistic unless we can compare it against other sports. I'd be interested to see if in games like golf or tennis whether participation was closer to 50/50 or even 55/45 or something. With pool, the 33/67 split seems to maintain itself at each category. Though at the 1-12 times a year, it's closer to 37/63.

Also I'm curious if in other sports, there are more women playing independently of any male influence or companions. It seems, admittedly based entirely on empirical evidence, that at the recreational level it is rare for women to participate without any males involved.
 
WoW!!! Very humbling Fran. Did you know that Margarette Thatcher had a similar encounter? There is something about it on the movie The Iron Lady.

During my last match I played a SL 5 HE is much better than me. And, after I won the match let me know that I was very lucky during the game. Umm yeah that got me thinking, I must be a freaking Lucky charm then, because I won 9 of the 11 matches last season.
I was fuming, but I just smiled.:grin-square:

Yes! I did see Iron Lady and I nearly shouted out when I saw that.

Yes, the male ego is a very fragile thing at times. They're much more sensitive than they let on.
 
Just dropping in to say...

...this is an interesting thread. I am enjoying the discussion very much. Thank you all for your contributions.

;)
 
...this is an interesting thread. I am enjoying the discussion very much. Thank you all for your contributions.

;)

You should come around to play more often. And please, be so kind to join in the discussion!!!

Maniac (likes your writing style)
 
I think it boils down to two key concepts, one simple and one complex:

(1) Pool developed and waxed in popularity as a mens' activity done by men in places only men went, and

(2) Places full of only men tend to become inhospitable to women.

Item (1) is pretty uncontroversial and easy to understand if you consider the era during which pool developed and became popular. In the second half of the 19th and first half of the 20th century, attending billiard halls was one of a large category of pursuits that, as a woman, simply were not done. I can't cite sources, but as a sociologist/anthropologist I doubt you need my help in that department.

Item (2) is more nebulous, but in my experience, men act very differently in the absence of women than in their presence. All manner of social graces are disposed of, and it's an unspoken law that a man is not to criticize another man's social graces. A place without women is a place without judgments of a certain type, and thus a place where a man is free to be kind of a jackass. If a small minority of women is introduced, one of two things will happen: the amount of perceived female judgment won't surmount the status quo of machismo and jackassery and the men will go on being jackasses, or the amount of perceived female judgment will be enough to hamper the jackassery and the female presence will thus be resented. In either case, the woman or women will not feel welcome.

Jackassitude aside, there's another effect at play when a female minority enters a male-dominated arena, and that's novelty. Where men might be able to act like normal humans in a situation of 20 men and 20 women, the novelty of one or two women entering a room full of men makes us fall all over ourselves trying to impress, befriend, protect, or seduce. For the women, this is awkward and annoying at best, and quite threatening at worst.

Mitigating item (1) is the fact that there are some pool halls that actually have a quite lively bar scene, and lively bar scenes generally if not always involve a relatively balanced gender distribution. In such places, item (1) doesn't hold and item (2) is therefore irrelevant.

There are also women that love the game and are dedicated to improving and competing, and will put up with the boys' club nonsense if they have to. I think the relative scarcity of these women compared to men who are similarly dedicated to improving and competing has to do with how boys and girls play differently. Whether it's instinctive, cultural, or some combination, little boys compete with each other and battle each other as a mode of play. Little girls in general tend more toward cooperative play. The spirit of matching up and climbing the pecking order in the pool room seems to appeal correspondingly more to men than women, and thus "love of the game" seems to have its own gender bias.

-Andrew
 
As an aside, when I first began to become aware of pro pool's existence, I thought that women were dominant at the game, since they were the only ones I ever saw competing on ESPN! Seriously, I thought that the men must just be a bunch of hacks at the game, thinking that if they were any good, I'd be watching them too.

You're not alone. Among people who don't play or pay any attention to pool, the consensus seems to be that Jeanette Lee (either by that name, or as "that Asian lady on ESPN") is the best player in the world.

No knock intended against Jeanette, of course. But I'm sure she'd admit she's an odd choice for world champion.

-Andrew
 
I think it boils down to two key concepts, one simple and one complex:

(1) Pool developed and waxed in popularity as a mens' activity done by men in places only men went, and

(2) Places full of only men tend to become inhospitable to women.

Item (1) is pretty uncontroversial and easy to understand if you consider the era during which pool developed and became popular. In the second half of the 19th and first half of the 20th century, attending billiard halls was one of a large category of pursuits that, as a woman, simply were not done. I can't cite sources, but as a sociologist/anthropologist I doubt you need my help in that department.

Item (2) is more nebulous, but in my experience, men act very differently in the absence of women than in their presence. All manner of social graces are disposed of, and it's an unspoken law that a man is not to criticize another man's social graces. A place without women is a place without judgments of a certain type, and thus a place where a man is free to be kind of a jackass. If a small minority of women is introduced, one of two things will happen: the amount of perceived female judgment won't surmount the status quo of machismo and jackassery and the men will go on being jackasses, or the amount of perceived female judgment will be enough to hamper the jackassery and the female presence will thus be resented. In either case, the woman or women will not feel welcome.

Jackassitude aside, there's another effect at play when a female minority enters a male-dominated arena, and that's novelty. Where men might be able to act like normal humans in a situation of 20 men and 20 women, the novelty of one or two women entering a room full of men makes us fall all over ourselves trying to impress, befriend, protect, or seduce. For the women, this is awkward and annoying at best, and quite threatening at worst.

Mitigating item (1) is the fact that there are some pool halls that actually have a quite lively bar scene, and lively bar scenes generally if not always involve a relatively balanced gender distribution. In such places, item (1) doesn't hold and item (2) is therefore irrelevant.

There are also women that love the game and are dedicated to improving and competing, and will put up with the boys' club nonsense if they have to. I think the relative scarcity of these women compared to men who are similarly dedicated to improving and competing has to do with how boys and girls play differently. Whether it's instinctive, cultural, or some combination, little boys compete with each other and battle each other as a mode of play. Little girls in general tend more toward cooperative play. The spirit of matching up and climbing the pecking order in the pool room seems to appeal correspondingly more to men than women, and thus "love of the game" seems to have its own gender bias.

-Andrew

I really enjoyed this post :smile:. Thank you so much for your input!
 
Guys see competition as fun?

OK here it goes..... I will accept whatever flames get shot at me from what I post here......
I have ALOT of female friends in their mid 20's - 30's.... I would not even think of putting one aginst the other in the pool hall... Here is why....

Most women I know cannot play a competitive sport such as pool with (against) their female friends or they will not be friends after the match..... too vindicitive. Two male friends can get into an arguement go outside beat the crap out of each other and once it's over. 99.9% of the time they will still be friends. Two female friends have words... and they will never (EVER) speak to each other again.

I happen to be friends with several that if you bring up another girls name (whom used to be best friends with girl #1) they automatically get pissed.. Guys don't do that.

You will very rarely see 2 girls walk into a pool hall w/ intensions of playing against each other. Guys will see the competition as fun, females don't.

I've been watching pool for almost sixty years, and to me it's pretty much the opposite. I've seen dozens of fights between men over pool games; never one between women.

From the viewpoint of a student of social psychology, I see men as concerned more with competition, women with cooperation. Women tend to have better manners and more patience than men.

Now wait a minute. OK, I've got my hard hat on, so the mysogynists can start bashing!
 
Women can't seem to go to a pool hall alone without being harrassed. When I (as a man) go alone, I am occasionally approached by someone who asks if I want to play a few games, sometimes just for fun and sometimes they want to gamble. If I so no, that's the end of it and no one else approaches me. As others have said with women it can be a constant barrage, and usually not to play a few games but to give unsolicited advice.

I think what I need to do is go to the pool hall alone and see what happens to fully get this experience.
 
Where men might be able to act like normal humans in a situation of 20 men and 20 women, the novelty of one or two women entering a room full of men makes us fall all over ourselves trying to impress, befriend, protect, or seduce. For the women, this is awkward and annoying at best, and quite threatening at worst.

It is annoying and/or threatening to be impressed, befriended, protected or seduced? Extraordinary.

No, the answer is far more simple - women can't play.
 
It is annoying and/or threatening to be impressed, befriended, protected or seduced? Extraordinary.

No, the answer is far more simple - women can't play.

A room full of dudes you'd rather be ignored by falling all over themselves to do these things is awkward and annoying. A room full of dudes trying to seduce you, particularly given the lack of subtlety employed by the majority, can be quite threatening.

-Andrew
 
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